Clutter Learns Linux

[Urmas]

Hey Clutter, you have a doppelgänger

Installation was pretty straightforward. I ran into some problems just because the machine only came with 256MB of memory (which I think is criminally low). The current version of Ubuntu (Dapper Drake) installs from a livecd and livecds like to have a bit more memory to work with. So the installer was really dragging and I had to get a bit creative with going in and killing off every process that wasn't completely necessary. If I'd known that she had that little memory, I would have either bought more for her before installing the OS, or I would have just used a slightly older version of Ubuntu that still had the seperate install disk that does everything from the command line and doesn't need lots of memory to run. Anyway, other than that, it was completely painless. Ubuntu detected all the hardware automatically and ran smoothly once it was installed on the drive. I plugged in my digital camera and iPod and it detected them both and started up the appropriate programs without any trouble. From what I've seen, tables have turned and Ubuntu currently has better hardware detection and support than Windows. The camera that worked trivially on her computer, I can't get a windows machine to recognize without manually installing drivers from a CD that I've long since lost. Unfortunately, the one thing I couldn't set up for her while I was visiting was the network connection. She'd called Verizon and ordered a DSL account from them. While I was there, she still hadn't gotten the DSL modem/router yet in the mail. I tried to talk her into going with a cable modem instead of DSL because I know that it's usually a much simpler setup, but the only option where she lived would have cost twice as much as the DSL and she would have had to have some things rewired to get cable to the room with her computer (or a really long ethernet cable I guess). Plus the DSL came with a phone line that she was planning on getting anyway (she's been on just a cellphone for the last few years). This left me in the position of having to walk her through the whole network setup thing over the phone this morning. Verizon, of course doesn't officially support anything other than Windows XP and Mac OS X, but I have yet to meet an ISP that officially supports linux and yet I've always been able to get my stuff connected so I figured it couldn't be too bad. Oh god, was it bad. Ultimately we were able to get her online, but it was not a simple process and involved making use of a coworker's Mac to complete one of the steps. I'm writing up the steps that we had to go through here in case anyone else out there is trying to get a similar setup working. Perhaps some of the information here will be useful. The box she got in the mail contained a dsl modem/wireless router and a Windows/Mac CD-ROM installation disk. No instructions, no account info. Got her to plug in the router and put the right cables into the right jacks and turn everything on. So far, so good. Ubuntu saw that it had an ethernet connection and got itself an IP address from the router via DHCP. That involved nothing beyond plugging things in and turning them on. Then she starts up a browser and tries to go to google.com. What she gets is a website telling her that her operating system is unsupported. In other words, they set a portal system like you sometimes see with for-pay wireless networks in airports, etc. where you get an IP and everything via DHCP, but the router always sends you to a login page when you first get on so you can enter your account info and it will authenticate you. Except with the additional twist that the login webpage was doing a browser detect and not letter her even access that. The easiest thing at this point would have been for her to borrow a windows or mac laptop from someone and go through the activation process on that. My sister lives in rural Maine though and basically doesn't know anyone within a few hundred miles with a laptop. So our options were to either figure out some way to do it from Linux or give up and reinstall Windows on her computer for the DSL activation and then reinstall Linux after that. I don't give that easily though. I found some phone numbers that she could call to set up her account username and password over the phone and sent her off to do that while i did a bit more research on the problem. My assumption at this point was that it would be like a typical portal setup and it was just a web page that she needed to get access to and there was an overly restrictive browser detect script keeping her from getting to something that would probably work just fine if she could get to it. So next I took her through hacking her Firefox config to spoof the User-Agent string to make it report itself as Internet Explorer so she could get to the activation web page. The steps for this are: enter 'about:config' into the browser url bar and hit enter right click anywhere on the preferences page that comes up and select 'New -> String' put in 'general.useragent.override' and hit enter enter 'Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1)' into that box and hit enter That worked nicely and she now had a browser that would look exactly like IE6 to Verizon's servers. When she went back to the login page, she was able to see it this time, although then we learned that they weren't kidding about only supporting IE and the page was a big garbled mess to Firefox (web standards? what are those?). Just to try to see what she was encountering, I got the url from her, which was for http://activatemydsl.verizon.net/ and loaded it on a Windows machine in our office. There's a form there for entering a phone number and zip code to set up a new account, or entering a username/password to activate an existing account. So she probably hadn't needed to do that stuff over the phone; we could have done it through the web here. But we already had the account info at this point, so I put that in and... got a page with an Active-X control. Ouch. There was no way we were going to get that working on her linux box. Actually, I couldn't even get it to run on the Windows machine that I was on. I got one of my coworkers with a Mac to go to the site and it gave them a .dmg file which we unpacked and ran the Mac installer program that it included. This program had us put in her account info and click through a Terms of Service agreement, etc. It ended by installing a bunch of crap on his computer and informing us that the account was now activated. Back on her computer, she was still getting the same garbled login screen instead of websites so I figured that one of the things the installer program probably took care of was putting in the PPPoE username and password in the router's settings. This is usually easy enough to do manually though. I got her local IP address (192.168.1.65) and from that could figure out the router's IP (192.168.1.1) which I had her connect to in Firefox. We hit a bit of a stumbling block here because the router didn't come with a manual so she didn't know the router's admin username/password. They generally all come with the same defaults set for a given model though. I googled for the default for her router. At first I only searched for the manufacturer and not the exact model number and the default passwords listed for them didn't work. I was starting to get worried that Verizon had installed custom firmware on the routers with a different admin password so users couldn't mess with it or something. But when I got her to read off the exact model number to me I was able to find a different password that actually worked. From there, we just went through the router's setup and entered her Verizon account info and everything worked after that. At this point, I'm not sure if the step of running the installer program on my coworker's computer was strictly necessary or if we'd gone straight into the router and put in her username/password there if it would have worked. My guess is that it was necessary though for the installer to run so the TOS could be agreed to and a flag set in Verizon's central database saying that the account was valid. If we'd skipped that step, I think we probably wouldn't have been able to connect even with the PPPoE username/password set. If that's indeed the case, then it really is impossible to get a Verizon DSL connection set up without at least knowing someone with a Windows or Mac box that can do the activation for you. If it isn't necessary, then we could have done it all from Linux (though without the router manual, we still would've needed to already have an internet connection somewhere so we could google the default router password). Now, if Verizon had just made their activation process be a normal website that worked in any browser instead of a full desktop application that required a particular OS to run and had included the manual for the router they sent her, this whole process would have been almost completely painless. My obligatory rant is how this sort of thing makes linux adoption harder than it should be. Ubuntu did absolutely everything it could to make it all easy and painless for the user. There's nothing that any linux programmer could have done to make it easier for us. The problem was entirely that Verizon was doing a number of things that made it very difficult for a Linux box to connect. But for someone a little less persistent than me and a without the same knowledge and resources, if they'd installed Ubuntu on their computer and then tried to connect to Verizon with it, they'd come out of the experience thinking "Ubuntu must be broken. It can't even connect to DSL."

( http://thraxil.org/users/anders/posts/2006...7/verizon-pain/ )

[Cluttermagnet]

Now, if Verizon had just made their activation process be a normal website that worked in any browser instead of a full desktop application that required a particular OS to run and had included the manual for the router they sent her, this whole process would have been almost completely painless.

No to the universal website, yes to the manual. A CD of the manual for the modem/ router was provided. This gave address and ID/pwd info to talk to the router. In this regard, I have been kept less in ignorance, as the unfortunate person in this example was. BTW the separate install CD for Windows has been temporarily misplaced. I assume we can find it if we really need it.

At this point, I'm not sure if the step of running the installer program on my coworker's computer was strictly necessary or if we'd gone straight into the router and put in her username/password there if it would have worked. My guess is that it was necessary though for the installer to run so the TOS could be agreed to and a flag set in Verizon's central database saying that the account was valid. If we'd skipped that step, I think we probably wouldn't have been able to connect even with the PPPoE username/password set. If that's indeed the case, then it really is impossible to get a Verizon DSL connection set up without at least knowing someone with a Windows or Mac box that can do the activation for you. If it isn't necessary, then we could have done it all from Linux (though without the router manual, we still would've needed to already have an internet connection somewhere so we could google the default router password).

Well, I've proven that I can connect to the net without clicking on any TOS agreement, but from a Windows box. I suspect I can do this thing entirely from Linux. Edited January 5, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

... install CD for Windows has been temporarily misplaced.

Euphemism for "cremated"?

[Cluttermagnet]

Euphemism for "cremated"?

Heh! No, it's there somewhere. I've laid eyes on it. But I did naively tell her she wouldn't be needing it- we're using Linux, don't need to install crap software into Windows to do this, etc. Edited January 5, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[raymac46]

BTW I'm looking for suggestions as to a laptop type to recommend to her landlord. Seems he had his Dell laptop die on him recently, and the repair tech told him his mobo was toast but his hard drive was still good. Looking for recommendations with an eye towards getting him to try a few Linux flavors on the laptop later.

Is he a gamer? I'd suggest ASUS C90. He might be able to get that as a barebone unit and reuse his hard drive.Otherwise why not check out what Dell is using for their Ubuntu laptops. I'm pretty sure they are going with Intel based hardware.

[raymac46]

Heh! No, it's there somewhere. I've laid eyes on it. But I did naively tell her she wouldn't be needing it- we're using Linux, don't need to install crap software into Windows to do this, etc.

Honestly I don't see why anyone would go with DSL if cable broadband is available.My neighbor has DSL from Bell Canada. It's down more times than it's up. Also every time it fails, she takes apart a perfectly functioning wireless Intranet I set up for her - on the advice of Bell's inept technical support. All she really has to do is wait till they restore service - or reset the modem by pushing a button. Edited January 5, 2008 by raymac46

[Bruno]

. . . but from what I've heard, I believe their so-called 'support' services are best avoided, as much as possible . . .

Bingo ! . . . And right you are ! . . . LOL . . and you managed to write that down without the use of any 4 letter words, bravo ! . . *support services* are absolutely the pits because they offer that job to idiots that are **** clueless :) Bruno

[zlim]

I don't see why anyone would go with DSL if cable broadband is available.

Price. Some senior citizens really have to watch their money. In the US, 22 states offered dsl for $10/month. Cable is $42.95 in my area. Some seniors I know switched from dialup to dsl because the price difference was pennies. But I suspect after the year is up and the price increases, they may move back to dialup.OTOH, I told my husband I'd give up my car, if I had to, just to get cable broadband. I still have my car and cable broadband, LOL.Clutter, I don't have Comcast's software installed. I don't use Comcast as my start page. I never signed up for a Comcast email address. I had to call tech support just to see what would be necessary if I replaced the modem. I thought mine was on its last legs. All I have to do is call and give them the new MAC address so they know it's me and I can connect.From the sound of it, dsl makes you jump through more hoops.

[raymac46]

Price. Some senior citizens really have to watch their money. In the US, 22 states offered dsl for $10/month. Cable is $42.95 in my area. Some seniors I know switched from dialup to dsl because the price difference was pennies. But I suspect after the year is up and the price increases, they may move back to dialup.

Not the same situation in Canada. Both cable and DSL have essentially the same pricing, and both offer various levels of service speed at prices from $20 to $100 per month.Not a lot of competition within a category of service though, There's one cable supplier and one phone company DSL supplier.One way to get a discount is to "bundle" services - we have Cable TV, Internet and our cell phone with Rogers.

[Cluttermagnet]

Some progress today-I did manage to achieve the holy grail of Verizon DSL internet- I had to install the stupid Verizon setup utility on the Vista laptop, but then I did manage to negotiate through the dreaded 'activation' process. Yes, we did have to agree with the TOS, etc. That is what got accomplished so far. Now I will address getting her Ubuntu desktop online. I think I'll first install Feisty over Dapper...Edit: After activating the Verizon DSL, it was as simple as firing up Dapper, firing up Firefox, and surfing the net. Mission accomplished. Heh! I'll update from Dapper to Feisty later. My time will be better spent giving an introductory tour, demonstrating a few internet capabilities.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

Attaboy, Clutter! A regular obstacle race, this one, but you made it!

[raymac46]

Glad it worked out for you, although it sucks that you had to resort to Windows.Maybe after a few million Linux boxes are sold, it'll be different.

[Cluttermagnet]

Thanks, guys-No shame in having to do it their way. Perhaps there is indeed a way to do it entirely from Linux. If so, I may eventually stumble on it (to the extent I continue to have access to this particular DSL pipe). My sweet revenge was to partition the 80G drive on this Acer laptop and install a copy of Ubuntu Feisty, dual booting with Vista Home Basic (ugh!). I'm working from there (Ubuntu) right now, fully updated. I'll give a few free lessons, and the laptop's owner will soon favor Ubuntu over Vista. Likewise, my sister is already sold on Ubuntu vs. Windows, and is getting around reasonably well in Dapper. I'll update it to Feisty next time.

Edited January 6, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Umm... just a quick visit. Urmas emailed me with the link to this thread because he knows I use Verizon.Clutter, you do NOT need any of the software the Verizon provided to access their DSL. I've never installed any of that crap on any of my systems and I can access my DSL with Windows or numerous distributions of Linux. I'm also using a router in between my system and the DSL modem. I'm not at all sure what the issues you're having are being caused by. I'll try to help you if I can. Let me know...~Eric

[Cluttermagnet]

Umm... just a quick visit. Urmas emailed me with the link to this thread because he knows I use Verizon.Clutter, you do NOT need any of the software the Verizon provided to access their DSL. I've never installed any of that crap on any of my systems and I can access my DSL with Windows or numerous distributions of Linux. I'm also using a router in between my system and the DSL modem. I'm not at all sure what the issues you're having are being caused by. I'll try to help you if I can. Let me know...~Eric

Thanks, Eric-Well, it's all history at this point, but as an expediency, I allowed Verizon and MS to have their way 'just this one time'. I was setting up for someone else, and was time- limited. I just needed to get the job done.It's a slam dunk getting DSL set up if you allow the CD to install. I did do the custom install, and refused whatever toolbars and such that were offered. It appears that an install of Adobe is standard (non optional). I never used it, however.Remember, I had available a new Acer laptop as a tool. It has Vista Home Basic on it. Running from the install CD was no problem, although I wouldn't have done so if I had any real choice. Under the circumstances I did not.Read back upthread. The Acer's owner is going to learn Ubuntu anyway, and has no real plan to use Vista much. She is now the owner of a laptop that dual boots Ubuntu Feisty and Vista. She plans to learn Ubuntu, not Vista.There is a link above which supposedly lays out how one would "Activate Verizon DSL in Linux". It would not work for me (in my limited time frame). BTW I think Urmas's link info was right, they force activation so you have clicked yes to the TOS. After that, it's no problem to access the net through their modem/ router combo using any OS.Friday night (my first session), I was briefly able to access internet from the Vista box using IE, prior to activation. I was not able to duplicate that later Saturday afternoon, however. But I can see that, in principle, it might be easy to just blow by their stupid activation and access the net if you know the tricks. I don't yet know those tricks. DSL is totally new to me, first time on DSL ever. And I did everything on someone else's turf, with limited time available.

I've set up verizon service before. There is absolutely no way to do it without windows. The reason is that verizon doesn't actually set up the account until you connect through the software on the CD. After you do that and get your user ID and password and other important things, you can toss the CD and set it up [for redhat].

Indeed. This is what I now think I 'understand'. And the reason for it is mainly to get you to agree to the TOS by mouse click, plus pick an ID and password. Prior to activation, you have no ID on the Verizon domain. The one you pick becomes permanent and cannot be changed later.Oh, another thought- they provide a modem/ router combination (in 1 enclosure). Its output is via either wireless (WEP 64bit), or wired ethernet, with the standard 4 ports. We chose wired, I've warned them all about WEP. I don't remember seeing if it even does WPA.Therefore, you can talk to the router via Firefox at 192.168.1.1 or something close to that. I never had any problem getting the Ubuntu desktop to talk to the router. But they detect your Linux OS and constantly redirect to a page of lies which pointedly omits any reference by name to Linux. It says any Windows 98 thru Vista, or a couple of Mac OS's are OK. Gee, thanks. So the router server team play games with you using redirects to prevent raw internet access. Yet I knew darned well I had internet working at that time, their own router dialog page was telling me that- plus I saw other clues such as the 'updates available' orange icon of ubuntu popping up on the top panel. In all, a real pain at that point, yet once you have activated, all problems vanish and Ubuntu finds the net. Bah humbug! P.S. I'm definitely still interested in learning a reliable way of activating Verizon DSL using Linux only. If you know such a method, please share it. Others would benefit as well. Anything to break through these 'incompatible OS' scams would be most welcome in Linux circles. (What a crock! "Troubleshooting: Operating System Not Supported" ) Truth is like light- it will banish shadows (lies). Edited January 6, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[striker]

What brand of router and model number is that Clutter? Tried to get in there with the fox and using the User Agent Switcher set to IE ?

[Cluttermagnet]

What brand of router and model number is that Clutter? Tried to get in there with the fox and using the User Agent Switcher set to IE ?

I saw the model number and the manufacturer info for the modem/ router. In fact, I had to check a box next to 1 of ~6 different modems, during the setup sequence. I don't remember that right now. I'll ask my sister about that and let you know. I actually did 'get in' to the router configuration page, using Firefox, at 192.168.1.1 (or whatever address). Further, I know now that I had actual internet connectivity on that machine (Ubuntu desktop) at that time. The only problem was redirects, and I think the redirects were mainly about my not having activated yet. Having said that, I'm not sure whether they were detecting I was running Firefox or whether they were actually detecting my OS (how would they detect what OS I was running?).BTW I was not running User Agent Switcher. Frankly, I had forgotten about it; I never even thought of that. Perhaps I should have. I was simply focused on getting the job done, and I didn't really care how I did it. At my home it would have been different, but this was at someone else's house, and I had only limited access time. :wacko:Last thought- I don't know if their activation software engine is running a browser or not. Maybe not. So I really don't know whether I activated using IE on that laptop. I do know that the engine spawned an instance of IE at the end of the activation process. The install CD from Verizon 'took over', of course. I really have no idea what they were running. All I know is I did a custom install at the beginning, and therefore got to deselect several pieces of crapware such as a Verizon toolbar, etc. Edited January 6, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[raymac46]

Verizon does their registration completely differently than Bell Canada. If you sign up for DSL service in Ontario they send you by courier your ID and initial password (which you can change if you want). You just sign on. Personally I've never set up a phone co. router. I usually put my own router in behind a DSL modem and give it the ID and password and let it deal with the modem. But if I have my choice I'd rather just install a cable setup. If the Verizon router doesn't do some form of WPA it's pretty stupid for them to offer wireless options.BTW I agree you cannot register for the first time with Verizon without using the Windows software. That How-To I quoted earlier works only if you have already registered with Verizon and have a valid ID and password.

Edited January 7, 2008 by raymac46

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Hmm... come to think of it, I've been using Verizon DSL for a lot longer than I've been using Linux, so I probably fired it up in Win98 back when. I've been active online since. I haven't had to re-register or anything like that. That must be why I've had no Linux issues with Verizon. I know that they only support Windows when you call for assistance. The bastids.

[Cluttermagnet]

BTW I agree you cannot register for the first time with Verizon without using the Windows software. That How-To I quoted earlier works only if you have already registered with Verizon and have a valid ID and password.

Ahah! I did completely misunderstand you, then. The page title "Activate Verizon DSL in Linux" I took to mean you could just use Linux from the very start. If this is true, BTW, I'm still open to an explanation as to why I was able to access raw internet from a Vista laptop running Firefox prior to activation! No kidding, I did that, and I'm not imagining it, either. I browsed to several known pages not in Verizon's domain. It was not a repeatable behavior later, however. I had not plugged in the install CD, nor had I agreed to the TOS or created an ID and password (that way) at the time. Vista's networking setup wizard basically figured it all out, all I supplied was the ID/new password set up between Verizon and the Ubuntu desktop. My point is, this seems to indicate you might be able to entirely bypass activation? I certainly did, however briefly.I had already talked to the Verizon servers from the Ubuntu desktop running Firefox, as a result of having brought up that router options page at 192.168.1.1 (or whatever). I did change a password in there, but kept the default online user ID of "newdsl". BTW the pathway into accessing that setup page used "admin" and "password" in order to get in. Later, I used the new online password I then created to sucessfully log on and surf the net on the Vista laptop prior to activation. Although I never saw raw internet access on the Ubuntu desktop, only redirects, I'm nearly positive I had internet on that machine- thus the appearance of the Ubuntu updates notify icon, the orange one up in the top panel. I can think of no other reason why that icon should have shown up. I've never seen it unless a machine had internet enabled, never before that. I think that icon pops as a result of a 'phone home' contact with the repositories or whatever?I'm still a bit confused about the entire experience, and I'm not sure whether it definitely is or is not possible to activate using only Linux. Most evidence certainly points toward that not being possible, however. Oh, yes- once I was into the CD- supervised activation, I did once again change both online ID and password, noting their admonition that whatever ID you selected at that point was permanent/ never changeable within the Verizon domain. I hope I picked one her landlord can be happy with, because he was clueless as to how you would activate, and in fact, believed that he might have defective hardware (modem/ router box). The job was mine, I got it done (with a little help from my friends). Edited January 7, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[Cluttermagnet]

Hmm... come to think of it, I've been using Verizon DSL for a lot longer than I've been using Linux, so I probably fired it up in Win98 back when. I've been active online since. I haven't had to re-register or anything like that. That must be why I've had no Linux issues with Verizon. I know that they only support Windows when you call for assistance. The bastids.

Yep, from what I've been hearing, best you should just stay away from their alleged 'support'. You'll keep your blood pressure lower for sure. I've also heard that many DSL outages resolve fairly soon and without any need for user intervention (trouble calls). Once again, it's best to just sit it out and wait for them to fix it.BTW I'm wondering how they detected that I was running Linux. Is that routinely sent by one's browser when it identifies itself as Mozilla, etc? I guess so. Anyway, they knew, and they steered me to stupid redirect pages needlessly. It's discrimination for sure, as I see it. Verizon is partnered with MS.

[raymac46]

Sorry Clutter,I apologize for the misunderstanding. For what it's worth I misunderstood as well. It was only after I read the link about 3 times that it dawned on me that he already had a valid ID and password and was just setting up another router to replace one that died.No idea how you connected with the Vista laptop without a valid ID though. Maybe some pages were cached, maybe you got ftp:// access to the Ubuntu repository and needed to sign up before you got http:// access. I don't know enough about networking to say either way.I'm pretty sure that any site logging access can figure out your O/S and browser. That's how they get stats about the percentage of say Linux vs. Windows users out there.

[Cluttermagnet]

Hey, raymac-No problem. You actually helped me a lot. Much appreciated- thanks! Getting DSL started over there proved to be mercifully quick and easy, it turns out. And I learned a few new things.FWIW I did browse to several pages in my own website using that laptop and prior to activation. Really weird, I think. This is a situation which I will only rarely see. If I ever get involved in another Verizon DSL install for someone else, I'm going to know more the next time, and will try a few tricks. I'd love to find a way to do it 100 percent under Linux- I'd publish that for sure! Heh!Now here is my next question for the group:The Verizon supplied modem/ router combo apparently only does 64 bit WEP. Would it be possible to daisy chain a 'real' router onto that box, using one of the 4 LAN jacks as my source? I would then disable wireless in the WEP box.I plan to warn the owner of this DSL setup, who plans to connect wirelessly. If he still insists on wireless via WEP, I'll do that for him.This leads to my second, related question: Is my sister's Ubuntu desktop using wired LAN also at risk of hacking if someone parks on that wireless and breaks in?

Edited January 7, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[raymac46]

Now here is my next question for the group:The Verizon supplied modem/ router combo apparently only does 64 bit WEP. Would it be possible to daisy chain a 'real' router onto that box, using one of the 4 LAN jacks as my source? I would then disable wireless in the WEP box.I plan to warn the owner of this DSL setup, who plans to connect wirelessly. If he still insists on wireless via WEP, I'll do that for him.This leads to my second, related question: Is my sister's Ubuntu desktop using wired LAN also at risk of hacking if someone parks on that wireless and breaks in?

OK I'll give this one a try. Hopefully a better answer than last time.Generally speaking if a DSL router finds it's talking to another router and it's "smart" enough, it'll give up its DHCP function and just act as a straight through modem. If it's as dumb as Verizon appears to be, maybe you can go in and configure it to stop trying to assign IP addresses.If all else fails you can set up *your* router to act solely as a wireless access point and hub and just pass the IP stuff from the Verizon modem. The WAP can still configure any wireless traffic with WPA. The ideal solution though is to get the DSL router to buzz off and do your DHCP at your own router.Now about your sister's machine. If she has a firewall and NO file sharing set up, she's relatively immune to anyone hacking her PC. For that matter if someone manages to crack the code and gets onto the LAN, if everybody has a firewall all they can do is basically share your Internet access. That isn't that great an idea though. Imagine the stuff they might want to download. The interloper would likely be able to read any wireless email that is sent but your sister is wired in so no problem. In spite of this, it's a good idea to secure the LAN with WPA.

[ross549]

Yes, verizon routers can be set to "bridge mode." I do not recall if the verizon people have to do it, but they can help get it set up properly.Adam

[Cluttermagnet]

OK, straight through, 'bridge mode'. I'll look into that. Thanks, guys. If that works, then I just turn off wireless WEP in the Verizon Router, then enable WPA in the second router.Today I did a little maintenance on a friend's WinXP box. This is the same one where I recently installed a copy of Feisty for myself, and hope to gradually move them over to Ubuntu as well. I'm freshly reminded of how much easier maintenance is in Linux. I must have spent around 6 hours today, removing a copy of Norton which was about to expire, and replacing it with Comodo 3.0 firewall and Avast! a/v. Then I did a bunch of cleaning, backing data up on a CDR, registry saving, registry cleaning, defragging, and a couple of images of an ~11G OS which still needs a whole bunch more junk cleaned out of it. Ubuntu never wastes big chunks of my time like this. I get to spend more of my time having fun using the OS and learning about it.

[Bruno]

Ubuntu never wastes big chunks of my time like this. I get to spend more of my time having fun using the OS and learning about it.

LOL . . . ain't that great ? Bruno

[Urmas]

Oh, yes... Windows:Linux:

[raymac46]

OK, straight through, 'bridge mode'. I'll look into that. Thanks, guys. If that works, then I just turn off wireless WEP in the Verizon Router, then enable WPA in the second router.Today I did a little maintenance on a friend's WinXP box. This is the same one where I recently installed a copy of Feisty for myself, and hope to gradually move them over to Ubuntu as well. I'm freshly reminded of how much easier maintenance is in Linux. I must have spent around 6 hours today, removing a copy of Norton which was about to expire, and replacing it with Comodo 3.0 firewall and Avast! a/v. Then I did a bunch of cleaning, backing data up on a CDR, registry saving, registry cleaning, defragging, and a couple of images of an ~11G OS which still needs a whole bunch more junk cleaned out of it. Ubuntu never wastes big chunks of my time like this. I get to spend more of my time having fun using the OS and learning about it.

I just figured out that I got the same functionality on my new AMD box for a 46% savings versus what the equivalent Microsoft Vista system would have cost from Dell Canada - who don't offer Linux here as yet.Plus no manufacturer installed crapware, virus checker, spyware cleaner, UAC, DRM and Windows Genuine Advantage snoopware.Linux has got to be the great undiscovered desktop treasure of the current computing scene.

[Cluttermagnet]

Linux has got to be the great undiscovered desktop treasure of the current computing scene.

Yep. I think this one line sums it up as well as I've seen. I keep asking myself "why did I wait so long to get my feet wet in Linux?" Well, the important thing is that I eventually did, and there's no turning back for me now.