Clutter Learns Linux

[ross549]

I too am happier. I also enjoy the interesting challenge of the command line hack. Those can be adventures........ :)Adam

[réjean]

It's a good thing I managed to get them to cut off IE and start using Firefox a couple years back (in XP). That makes the transition to a Linux OS ever so much easier. Our browsers are where we live these days. Familiar old Firefox...

That is the best way to get people into Linux. First you get them used to Open Source, FF, Thunderbird, Open Office, Gimp, etc.. Then when they are familiar with them they'll be less reluctant to jump into Linux, knowing that it is not all command lines.Good job Clutter! We are proud of you and lucky to have you among us. Heck! Look at all the reading you have provided us with for the last few months. Keep up the good work! Edited December 19, 2007 by réjean

[Cluttermagnet]

Hi, all-I'm at my sister's house, running Ubuntu (Dapper) on dialup. What I really like about Dapper is that it is particularly easy to configure dialup. She is already impressed with Ubuntu, and Linux in general. She is going to learn it. This is my 3rd 'Linux conversion' so far, with one more scheduled 'soon'. That's 4 new users in only my first year. She's been off the net for a while, and this is her first time back on. I'm getting everything set up. She is planning to help a friend of hers learn Ubuntu as well.

Edited December 28, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Bruno]

. . . . a man on a mission . . . . LOL . . . . . great job Clutter ! . . Bruno

[Cluttermagnet]

BTW I found out that the 'house broadband' at her place happens to be DSL- ugh! I may need some help getting that set up for her in Ubuntu. (For Windows, users, an install CD is provided) Her personal DSL modem is expected in the mail soon. But for now, dialup will do, and it works. I have a copy of Win98SE on that machine, but not set up (patched, etc.) I think that would be a nightmare with DSL anyway, but the plan is to make Ubuntu run DSL I 'hid' Windows where it would be hard to find it and launch it and run it on the net unpatched. She agrees to learn Linux in any case. So we'll just leave 98SE out of the picture for now.

[Urmas]

BTW I found out that the 'house broadband' at her place happens to be DSL- ugh! I may need some help getting that set up for her in Ubuntu.

Huh? That shouldn't be much of a problem. Get a router; no problem. But... it's not difficult without a routher, either. Unless... you say "house broadband"; does she need a homePNA card/adapter (instead of 10/100 Ethernet card). In that case you'll need to go "command line"... just a bit. If it's not a homePNA thingy, but nevertheless requires user name & password, you'll configure the connection with (sudo) pppoeconf. And, finally, if it's an "always open" type of connection... well... it's open. Edited December 28, 2007 by Urmas

[raymac46]

Huh? That shouldn't be much of a problem. Get a router; no problem. But... it's not difficult without a routher, either. Unless... you say "house broadband"; does she need a homePNA card/adapter (instead of 10/100 Ethernet card). In that case you'll need to go "command line"... just a bit. If it's not a homePNA thingy, but nevertheless requires user name & password, you'll configure the connection with (sudo) pppoeconf. And, finally, if it's an "always open" type of connection... well... it's open.

I agree with Urmas. A simple wired router is a good idea. You can connect to it using firefox and configure the router to handle all the DSL negotiation. Meanwhile your PC is on a nice little local network.

[Bruno]

Meanwhile your PC is on a nice little local network.

And that way the router will double a hardware firewall at the same time . . . . . so actually is very good value for the couple of bucks you spend on it. ( if needed, because most multi-pc-adsl-modems come with the router and NAT-firewall by default ) Bruno

[raymac46]

And that way the router will double a hardware firewall at the same time . . . . . so actually is very good value for the couple of bucks you spend on it. ( if needed, because most multi-pc-adsl-modems come with the router and NAT-firewall by default ) Bruno

That's true. You *can* get a DSL-equipped router/modem from the phone company here in Canada. But their tech support is so abysmal I advise anyone who's on DSL to get the basic modem and just buy their own router. Personally I'll stick with cable access.

[Cluttermagnet]

Thanks, guys-It's not clear to me yet whether or not a regular ethernet PCI card is going to work with the modem or not. We will know after the modem is received. BTW my sister seems to think that the modem includes a built in router. Well, it has to be better than dialup has been at this location so far. Lots of disconnects.Today I was given another old computer. I don't know whether it works or not until I get it home later. In any case, I can always harvest it for parts. It's an eMachines 600MHz and has ME on it. It may even work. I also got with it what looks to be a 17in monitor. I hope that works. I need one more for the upstairs level in my house

[raymac46]

Thanks, guys-It's not clear to me yet whether or not a regular ethernet PCI card is going to work with the modem or not. We will know after the modem is received.

Every DSL modem I've seen connects to the phone line with a regular RJ11 jack and telephone cable and to the PC with Ethernet and a 8P8C (RJ45) connector. The router if used inside the modem is straight Ethernet cabling. Edited December 29, 2007 by raymac46

[Urmas]

Every DSL modem I've seen connects to the phone line with a regular RJ11 jack and telephone cable and to the PC with Ethernet and a 8P8C (RJ45) connector. The router if used inside the modem is straight Ethernet cabling.

Yes, this is true for (A)DSL. It's just that - and I don't think this is much of a "problem" in the U.S. - some operators offer/have offered "prices from" homePNA(/VPN) connections for apartment houses. You'd need either a homePNA card or an adapter.This is "yesterday's technology", however... I don't think Clutter'll have to worry about this.

[Cluttermagnet]

Today I was given another old computer. I don't know whether it works or not until I get it home later. In any case, I can always harvest it for parts. It's an eMachines 600MHz and has ME on it. It may even work. I also got with it what looks to be a 17in monitor. I hope that works. I need one more for the upstairs level in my house

The computer actually works, and so does the monitor. It came with ME and a 10G hard drive, but only 32M PC100 RAM. At 600MHz, I guess it must be a later P3 processor. It is not the type mounted on a PC board, it just mounts directly to the mobo with a heatsink and fan on top.One rather touching thing was that I found an Upgrade copy of WinXP in the CD drive. That's sad. They must have tried to install XP with only 32M and the install choked. Anyway, I popped an additional 128M in there. Then I tried to boot a live CD session of Ubuntu Dapper. Well, it almost got me there, but I was running out of patience, so I shut down. Then I removed the 32M RAM and popped in an additional 128M, and Dapper loaded fast and effortlessly. I forgot about the 256M requirement. Heh! Another piece of free, good hardware for me to play with. It will be nice to have the monitor for upstairs.Regarding DSL, I'm nearly positive that this modem will have a built in router with 4 LAN jacks and it distributes the signal over ethernet. It sounds like it should be fairly easy. I'll know once I get a look at the modem when it arrives. Yes, I'll distribute it wired. There is no need for wireless for this desktop. Edited December 29, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Cluttermagnet]

Huh? That shouldn't be much of a problem. Get a router; no problem. But... it's not difficult without a routher, either. Unless... you say "house broadband"; does she need a homePNA card/adapter (instead of 10/100 Ethernet card). In that case you'll need to go "command line"... just a bit. If it's not a homePNA thingy, but nevertheless requires user name & password, you'll configure the connection with (sudo) pppoeconf. And, finally, if it's an "always open" type of connection... well... it's open.

I didn't realize "house broadband" could have such a different meaning. In her context, the 'house' is a townhouse, and her landlord, who lives upstairs, has selected DSL. He also has satellite TV rather than cable. But then Comcast has a deservedly poor reputation for customer service, so maybe he didn't want to deal with them. I assume he would take FIOS if it were available. Probably it is not yet available. In some areas, we will have to wait 3-5 years for Verizon to get it all built out.

[raymac46]

The computer actually works, and so does the monitor. It came with ME and a 10G hard drive, but only 32M PC100 RAM. At 600MHz, I guess it must be a later P3 processor. It is not the type mounted on a PC board, it just mounts directly to the mobo with a heatsink and fan on top.One rather touching thing was that I found an Upgrade copy of WinXP in the CD drive. That's sad. They must have tried to install XP with only 32M and the install choked. Anyway, I popped an additional 128M in there. Then I tried to boot a live CD session of Ubuntu Dapper. Well, it almost got me there, but I was running out of patience, so I shut down. Then I removed the 32M RAM and popped in an additional 128M, and Dapper loaded fast and effortlessly. I forgot about the 256M requirement. Heh! Another piece of free, good hardware for me to play with. It will be nice to have the monitor for upstairs.Regarding DSL, I'm nearly positive that this modem will have a built in router with 4 LAN jacks and it distributes the signal over ethernet. It sounds like it should be fairly easy. I'll know once I get a look at the modem when it arrives. Yes, I'll distribute it wired. There is no need for wireless for this desktop.

Sounds like you got one of those early PIII Coppermines that uses Slot 370 technology and 100MHz FSB.If the router/DSLmodem has Ethernet ports all you have to do is plug in some Cat5 cable and connect to the router with Firefox. Its IP will be something like 192.168.0.1Then you configure the router for PPPoE and give it the ID and password. The router will connect to the Internet and you have to get it to use DHCP to assign a local IP to your computer. It's pretty easy actually. Everything is done with the browser.

[Cluttermagnet]

Sounds like you got one of those early PIII Coppermines that uses Slot 370 technology and 100MHz FSB.

Yes indeed. That is exactly what the Hardware Info utility reports- Coppermine. BTW I partitioned that little 10G drive and now have a copy of Ubuntu Gutsy running on it. The install took way longer than on my 1.6GHz class P4 machines (256K L2 with 512M RAM). We're talking a 600MHz P3 Celeron (128K L2, 256M RAM). Gutsy runs fine, not quite as snappy as on my faster boxes, but acceptably fast.

If the router/DSLmodem has Ethernet ports all you have to do is plug in some Cat5 cable and connect to the router with Firefox. Its IP will be something like 192.168.0.1Then you configure the router for PPPoE and give it the ID and password. The router will connect to the Internet and you have to get it to use DHCP to assign a local IP to your computer. It's pretty easy actually. Everything is done with the browser.

As soon as she has the modem/router, I'll take a look. I think it is going to be as easy as you describe, even in Linux. OTOH Verizon gives Windows users an install CD to do the setup. I suppose it installs a bunch of other unneeded stuff, who knows? But this setup can't be all that difficult. We'll see... Edited January 1, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

OTOH Verizon gives Windows users an install CD...

Beware strangers bearing gifts.

But this setup can't be all that difficult. We'll see...

I installed Ubuntu for a friend, and after he'd taken the computer "back home" - he had a brand new DSL, never used it before - he calls me, "I can't get the 'net working". I asked him about the setup... a modem/router. "How about just opening FF and Googlin' something?" <20 seconds' worth of silence>... "Why, I'll be... HOLY S***!"...<hangs up the phone>.

[Cluttermagnet]

Beware strangers bearing gifts. I installed Ubuntu for a friend, and after he'd taken the computer "back home" - he had a brand new DSL, never used it before - he calls me, "I can't get the 'net working". I asked him about the setup... a modem/router. "How about just opening FF and Googlin' something?" <20 seconds' worth of silence>... "Why, I'll be... HOLY S***!"...<hangs up the phone>.

It's probably about as easy as installing HP printers in Ubuntu- no probably even easier. Ubuntu continues to amaze me.

[raymac46]

BTW I partitioned that little 10G drive and now have a copy of Ubuntu Gutsy running on it. The install took way longer than on my 1.6GHz class P4 machines (256K L2 with 512M RAM). We're talking a 600MHz P3 Celeron (128K L2, 256M RAM). Gutsy runs fine, not quite as snappy as on my faster boxes, but acceptably fast.

Sounds like your PIII 600 would be a great candidate for Vector Linux 5.9 actually. Slackware based so you'd get lots of support and encouragement from all the Slackers here. Also runs Xfce which is a bit quicker than Gnome on the old stuff. It's really a beautiful desktop the way VL has it set up.I have Ubuntu Gutsy on a PIII 866 with 512 MB and it's pretty good. But on this K6-2 450 with 320 MB it's VL all the way.

[raymac46]

Beware strangers bearing gifts. I installed Ubuntu for a friend, and after he'd taken the computer "back home" - he had a brand new DSL, never used it before - he calls me, "I can't get the 'net working". I asked him about the setup... a modem/router. "How about just opening FF and Googlin' something?" <20 seconds' worth of silence>... "Why, I'll be... HOLY S***!"...<hangs up the phone>.

Yeah come to think of it a phone company router is probably all set to dial home...and ready to DHCP with whatever plugs in. Maybe Clutter won't need to do anything...it'll just work.

[Cluttermagnet]

Sounds like your PIII 600 would be a great candidate for Vector Linux 5.9 actually. Slackware based so you'd get lots of support and encouragement from all the Slackers here. Also runs Xfce which is a bit quicker than Gnome on the old stuff. It's really a beautiful desktop the way VL has it set up.I have Ubuntu Gutsy on a PIII 866 with 512 MB and it's pretty good. But on this K6-2 450 with 320 MB it's VL all the way.

Thanks- I've downloaded it. Will try it on a few machines, including my slow K6 (if that machine will support it- but I like dsl a lot on that box). I have a feeling something lighter like VL would be better than Ubuntu for my P3 box. Edited January 4, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

I have a feeling something lighter like VL would be better than Ubuntu for my P3 box.

Oh, yes. A biiiiiig difference in speed. Steve (Cybormoron) has done an axcellent VL pictutorial:http://www.flickr.com/photos/vector59invirtualbox/Or, if you prefer a slideshow:http://www.flickr.com/photos/vector59invirtualbox/show/

[Bruno]

Hi Clutter . . . . . . just one little note: You will maybe not like the installer VectorLinux is using . . . but you will love the speed that distro runs on a PIII ;) Bruno

[raymac46]

Hi Clutter . . . . . . just one little note: You will maybe not like the installer Vector Linux is using . . . but you will love the speed that distro runs on a PIII ;) Bruno

I agree. The installer looks like something out of MS-DOS 5.0 but it works OK. The only thing to note is that if the screen goes blank half way through the install...don't worry. Press any key on the keyboard and the display returns.I'm running it on a K6 450 and a PII 266 with fine results.

[Cluttermagnet]

Yeah come to think of it a phone company router is probably all set to dial home...and ready to DHCP with whatever plugs in. Maybe Clutter won't need to do anything...it'll just work.

Well, I don't quite know where to begin, but I am going to need some help to get my sister's computer working on Verizon DSL.First the good news- I am active on that DSL link right now, but on a different computer. Just for future reference, the platform is a new Acer 3680-2633 laptop running Vista Home Basic (ugh!) I managed to figure out how to access the router via Firefox, but I didn't change much other than the default password so far. It's running ppoe, wired, and it is working.BTW I did the router setup from the desktop Linux Ubuntu computer and Firefox. So I know all the hardware works- desktop and laptop, modem and router, physical DSL line. Hardware wise, everything works.OTOH the bad news is that the Ubuntu desktop only gets Verizon page serves which say the I'm running a non- compatible OS. It lists Windows 98 through Vista as 'acceptable', also a couple of MAC OS's. Of course it doesn't mention Linux by name, but the obvious conclusion is that Microsoft partner Verizon is trying to discourage me from running Linux on their pipes. Well, I know that I can, but I just don't know yet how to make that happen. You guys will know. Tell me please, what am I missing?I will return to do battle again tomorrow (Saturday afternoon). Now I'm going over to a friend's house for a while. I will check back here later this evening to look for suggestions. How are these clowns detecting my Linux OS and how do I get them to back off and just serve me internet? Edited January 4, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[raymac46]

Well, I don't quite know where to begin, but I am going to need some help to get my sister's computer working on Verizon DSL.First the good news- I am active on that DSL link right now, but on a different computer. Just for future reference, the platform is a new Acer 3680-2633 laptop running Vista Home Basic (ugh!) I managed to figure out how to access the router via Firefox, but I didn't change much other than the default password so far. It's running ppoe, wired, and it is working.BTW I did the router setup from the desktop Linux Ubuntu computer and Firefox. So I know all the hardware works- desktop and laptop, modem and router, physical DSL line. Hardware wise, everything works.OTOH the bad news is that the Ubuntu desktop only gets Verizon page serves which say the I'm running a non- compatible OS. It lists Windows 98 through Vista as 'acceptable', also a couple of MAC OS's. Of course it doesn't mention Linux by name, but the obvious conclusion is that Microsoft partner Verizon is trying to discourage me from running Linux on their pipes. Well, I know that I can, but I just don't know yet how to make that happen. You guys will know. Tell me please, what am I missing?I will return to do battle again tomorrow (Saturday afternoon). Now I'm going over to a friend's house for a while. I will check back here later this evening to look for suggestions. How are these clowns detecting my Linux OS and how do I get them to back off and just serve me internet?

I don't know if this will help or not:http://www.bensdrivel.com/?p=142I never heard of anything like this with DSL in Canada at least. Sounds like you have to do some sort of registration with Windows only. Edited January 5, 2008 by raymac46

[Cluttermagnet]

I don't know if this will help or not:http://www.bensdrivel.com/?p=142I never heard of anything like this with DSL in Canada at least. Sounds like you have to do some sort of registration with Windows only.

It sounds like you have it nailed. Thanks, raymac. I printed out that instruction set and will try that tomorrow when I revisit this mess. From my reading, it appears that the only problem is that I'm not 'registered'.

6. Name the service Verizon, and put your username and password in that you signed up to Verizon with.

Well, I never could determine if any ID or password was exchanged between Verizon and her landlord, but nonetheless, I was able to open the page served by the router at 192.168.1.1. I left the default ID "newdsl" alone but changed the password. Later, I repeatedly logged in from a Win Vista box while presenting that ID/pwd combo. What I don't yet know is whether Verizon is sniffing the modem/ router MAC number or not, and whether or not I even need the ID/pwd combo. But it sounds like I simply need to do the registration process. Also that trick of navigating to the verizon/redirect.htm page and disabling it sounds real good. Ah, well, I can only try this, but it sounds quite likely to work. I can tell you this much- Ubuntu had internet connectivity long enough to detect available downloads and place the orange notification icon in the upper tray ('panel'). The actual update could not go forward, however, probably due to redirects.BTW I'm looking for suggestions as to a laptop type to recommend to her landlord. Seems he had his Dell laptop die on him recently, and the repair tech told him his mobo was toast but his hard drive was still good. Looking for recommendations with an eye towards getting him to try a few Linux flavors on the laptop later. Seems like my sister has more or less volunteered me to be that household's de facto IT guy for now. It's time to strike while the iron is hot and suggest some laptop brands which would have good Linux compatibility. Sorry I don't know which Dell mode laptop he had. Probably not one of the real expensive ones, however. Edited January 5, 2008 by Cluttermagnet

[Bruno]

Verizon: . . . . . . what a stupid idea to exclude alternative OS's from your DSL service !! Bruno

[Urmas]

Cute. I went to https://activatemydsl.verizon.net/DSL/ and yessiree:

To proceed with the installation, please upgrade your operating system or use an alternate computer that meets the minimum system requirements .

Nitwits.EDIT: RE:

What I don't yet know is whether Verizon is sniffing the modem/ router MAC number or not, and whether or not I even need the ID/pwd combo. But it sounds like I simply need to do the registration process.

Found this:

Activating Verizon DSL from Linux?>> Is there a way to activate the account from Linux? If not, do we need to> get some Win machine in his house, or can we just use a random machine> somewhere else?>I've set up verizon service before. There is absolutely no way to do it withoutwindows. The reason is that verizon doesn't actually set up the account untilyou connect through the software on the CD. After you do that and get your userID and password and other important things, you can toss the CD and set it up[for redhat].

( http://www.oak.homeunix.org/lists/cslug-l/msg00595.html )EDIT #2: Google finds lots of solutions... this is rather popular:

Point your browser at 192.168.1.1. You should be at your modem's config page. Call Verizon tech support and tell them that their CD is a coaster and you'll need to set up your account manually. They'll walk you through getting your DSL connection up and running.

Edited January 5, 2008 by Urmas

[Cluttermagnet]

I've set up verizon service before. There is absolutely no way to do it withoutwindows. The reason is that verizon doesn't actually set up the account untilyou connect through the software on the CD. After you do that and get your userID and password and other important things, you can toss the CD and set it upfor redhat.

Hmmm-Well, I have accessed internet from a Vista machine on that DSL line- and actually I didn't use any install CD. OTOH it was difficult and I don't imagine I actually set up an account. But I was able to gain unfettered access to the net without any install CD and by simply using the networking setup capabilities of Vista. For Ubuntu, I think it's going to be slightly harder. I'll know soon enough.I think my sister's friend will allow me to let the setup CD install into Vista on her laptop, if necessary. We'll see. My payback: I put a copy of Ubuntu, dual booting, on that machine, and teach her to use it. Soon she will have no further use for Windows. Sweet revenge.Well, Verizon is partnered with Microsoft- what should we expect? This is typical, anticompetitive behavior.

Point your browser at 192.168.1.1. You should be at your modem's config page. Call Verizon tech support and tell them that their CD is a coaster and you'll need to set up your account manually. They'll walk you through getting your DSL connection up and running.

I have this in mind as a fallback, but from what I've heard, I believe their so-called 'support' services are best avoided, as much as possible.The link provided by raymac above, Activate Verizon DSL in Linux, looks like it might work from Linux. Remember, I saw evidence on that Dapper box that it had at least briefly seen internet: the orange icon in the top panel, for updates. Edited January 5, 2008 by Cluttermagnet