Clutter Learns Linux

[Urmas]

One thousand six bottles of beer on the wall... Here's what I see (Ubuntu Edgy, Athlon 3000+/1Gig RAM):Opera with 42 ( ) tabs open, 1 Evince (PDF reader), 6 "Eye-Of-Gnomes":The above stuff plus Update Manager doing its stuff (today's ten packages): Hey Clutter, it sure would be interesting to see how that box'd behave if you installed Gutsy on it.

[Cluttermagnet]

Hey Clutter, it sure would be interesting to see how that box'd behave if you installed Gutsy on it.

You have to know the thought had crossed my mind... ;)I bet it would straighten right out and behave itself.Yeah, I'm real tempted...but maybe I'll play this hand a bit longer- just for the educational value.Then trash it with Gutsy, anyway. :hysterical:But this is my working copy of Dapper right now, which I have used the most, day to day. I need to re-evaluate my use of the 6 P4 computers in this room, 5 of them set up and working, 3 having working Ubuntu distros installed, a 4th often runs Linux live CD sessions- I have it running Mint 3.1 right now and am typing from there. All 6 have ethernet capability now, plus I have 3 external modems floating around the room...I guess the Dapper box has sentimental value because it's the first P4 computer (1.6GHz) I put together. (Prior to that I was getting by with my 333MHz P2)

Correct syntax to kill a process:# kill pid#If that don't work:# kill -9 pid#

In the examples , is the first # symbol indicating I'm in root? Because so far, I'm trying to do (whatever) as user. But I will try to adapt the parts shown after the # symbol and see if that does it (not as root).

What are you trying to kill, Clutter?

At the moment, a process #4125 on my machine called "hald-addon-storage". Edited November 14, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Cluttermagnet]

# kill pid#If that don't work:# kill -9 pid#That will definitely kill it.

Well, probably so, as root. Neither worked, as I'm presently running Top as user. "...failed- not permitted"

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Trying to kill hald? Why? *scratching head*

[Bruno]

and "sudo kill 4125" ??or "sudo killall hald" Bruno

[V.T. Eric Layton]

AHA! You're trying to kill it because Bruno is assisting you with this issue and suggested that. I missed that part in the above posts. I'll go away now...

[Cluttermagnet]

and "sudo kill 4125" ??or "sudo killall hald" Bruno

Well, I closed Top, then reopened it with

sudo top

Indeed, that allowed me to kill it with

kill 4125

Plain and simple. No effect on the crazy CPU histogram, however...I have just a whole bunch of things that pop in and out at the top of the Top listing. Many processes below probably can be ignored, they don't use many resources. Should I list some more of those at the top which come and go? I'm not sure which I could kill. There are several Gnome entries, but also several other types such as cups stuff- and others.The 3 big users of resources seem to be Xorg- root, perl- clutter, and gnome-system-mo- clutter.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[striker]

Clutter, do you own a digital camera ?If yes, you could try and take a screenshot of the opened window showing the results of 'top'.If possible stretch that window out as far as possible before taking the shot, so it will show all contents or at least the max. available.Saves you a bunch of typing.What you could also do, that at leat works in KDE, is from the terminal with 'top' opened in it,right click and select all results, then hit the enter button (this copies it to the clipboard) and paste it in a reply in ATL. But again I don't know if that works in gnome the same way, so maybe a bit of trial and error is in order.Then we all can have a glance at the list to see if there are any strange things.

[Cluttermagnet]

A good idea, striker, but my digital camera is not up to the task. It only has 1.3Mpix and no optical zoom. No way I could capture that much detail- I can't do good closeups.In any case, the processes displayed change quite a lot, from one interval to the next. This thing refreshes about every 3 seconds. There are somewhere around 6+ processes which pop in and out sort of randomly, over and over and over. I consider that unusual, but maybe not- The Feisty machine also does that, but just not as much, not as often, not as many processes popping in and out.I think it would take a whole series of screens for you to start to get a sense of what is going on here.Would it help if I listed those 6-12 processes which are popping in and out? These are always showing at the top of the process list in Top. BTW no process is showing any huge amount of CPU or MEM percent. The only one going over 10 percent CPU is clutter- perl. No process seems to use more than about 3 percent MEM. (Firefox is open in Feisty- it is the obvious exception, using about 26-27 percent MEM) In that regard, I am puzzled, since System Monitor is showing a steady train of CPU spikes to about 60 percent. It does not compare right when contrasted with the percent CPU per process, all large users added up, as reported by Top. :hmm:As a general observation, Top is reporting that Dapper is using about 4 times the CPU for User compared to feisty-16 percent vs. 4 percent. System is using 10-20 percent vs, a steady ~2-3 percent in Feisty.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[striker]

The top enties in 'top' are the most important, but you now the difficulties already to get them copied and pasted in an editor.

The only one going over 10 percent CPU is clutter- perl

What is this stuff, do you know that ?BTW : I think Dapper is using another kernel than Feisty, so there might be some source of problem too.Maybe Urmas's idea to replace Dapper with Feisty is not so bad after all. When it doesn't seem to solve the problem however you will have to revert back to Dapper if you want, that means a reinstall.

[Cluttermagnet]

Well, it's simple enough to make the change- say, to Gutsy. Maybe that would be for the best. I may be trying to troubleshoot a broken OS that might be corrupt anyway. (I already have Feisty on 2 other machines)

The top entries in 'top' are the most important, but you now the difficulties already to get them copied and pasted in an editor. What is this stuff, do you know that ?

I've been watching the processes blink 'in and out' in Top. The most resources are (almost) always used by the first process, clutter- perl. 2nd most busy is Xorg- root. 3rd is gnome-system-mo(nitor). clutter- perl sometimes spikes above 10 percent CPU. It sometimes swaps between 1st and 2nd place as the hungriest for CPU. Edited November 14, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[striker]

Gutsy, yes, not Feisty I found the below thread which may be helpull in some way :https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/g...tor/+bug/104013

[Cluttermagnet]

Yes, parts of it match- the part where Top and System monitor disagree on CPU usage. But In System Monitor, Resources tab, mine displays a 'sawtooth' histogram where the value spikes up and down constantly. It is not always showing 90-100 percent unless Firefox is running and the browser is actively downloading a web page. Then it pegs out at 100 percent for maybe 5 seconds or so, then it comes back down to the 'sawtooth' CPU activity display.Well, probably in the next day or two I will load Gutsy over this flaky Dapper install and be done with it.

Edited November 14, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

Just a "general observation": while I had no problems with petrified rodents using (Breezy and) Dapper with a PIII, upgrading to Edgy was a HUUUUGE step forward, speed-wise. Dapper's Naughtilus and Update Manager were s-l-o-w and resource hungry. So: I would do the upgrade to Gutsy ASAP.

[Cluttermagnet]

I would do the upgrade to Gutsy ASAP.

Yep.I think I'll install Gutsy later tonight...

[mlangdn]

A good idea, striker, but my digital camera is not up to the task. It only has 1.3Mpix and no optical zoom. No way I could capture that much detail- I can't do good closeups.

Here is a simple way to capture screenshots, and to crop easily what you want to keep.First, Press Alt+F2, then type in the run box:xwd | convert - ~/atl.pngThat will take the snapshot of the current active window and put it in your home directory. atl just means All Things Linux, and the name is up to you.Next, Press Alt+F2, then type in the run box:import atl.jpgThat will give you a cross-hair pointer for a cursor that you can use to crop the active window. Just start in a corner, click and hold, then draw a square around the portion you want. That will create an atl.jpg image of exactly what you want in your home directory. Then just upload!Now, assuming you may want the whole screenshot, but want to make it smaller, just use the convert command. You can do this in a terminal, or by using Alt+F2:convert -geometry 800x600 /home/yourname/atl.jpg /home/yourname/atl2.jpgThe size is your choice. You can even reduce an image to use as an avatar.

[Bruno]

First let me say that I agree on the upgrade to Gutsy . . . Next, a few remarks:

perl- clutter

I would kill that perl . . it is some kind of script and killing it does no harm . . and maybe even is the cure.

The top enties in 'top' are the most important, but you now the difficulties already to get them copied and pasted in an editor.

The thing with top is that you can not copy and paste when it is running . . . BUT once you press the Q-key to stop top the last output stays visible and at that moment you can copy and paste the output in your post on the forum. :'( ( just a little trick you have to know about )Anyway Clutter . . . go for Gtusy . . . much better ! Bruno

[striker]

First let me say that I agree on the upgrade to Gutsy . . . Next, a few remarks: I would kill that perl . . it is some kind of script and killing it does no harm . . and maybe even is the cure. The thing with top is that you can not copy and paste when it is running . . . BUT once you press the Q-key to stop top the last output stays visible and at that moment you can copy and paste the output in your post on the forum. ( just a little trick you have to know about )Anyway Clutter . . . go for Gtusy . . . much better ! Bruno

ctrl+c does the same Bruno, that's what I always use. Albeit it needs an extra finger, so you win!

[Cluttermagnet]

Next, a few remarks: I would kill that perl . . it is some kind of script and killing it does no harm . . and maybe even is the cure.

Fascinating! Absolutely double dog fascinating! I logged in a session of Top as root ("sudo") and I killed that perl script, whatever it is. It immediately re-spawned, with a much higher PID in the 30,000 range. So I killed that one, too. And it respawned with another replica in the 32,000 PID range. Yikes! This copy of Dapper is haunted. And my sawtooth CPU usage histogram continues to merrily march along.Yep, I'm going to slap a copy of Gutsy over it.I'm a little tired from my week. I will do that tomorrow...

Here is a simple way to capture screenshots, and to crop easily what you want to keep.First, Press Alt+F2, then type in the run box:xwd | convert - ~/atl.png...

Thanks, mlangdn-I tried this earlier 'today' and saw partial success. The run box part seemed to work fine, but I never did successfully get a screen shot graphic to get created and placed in that folder. I'll try again later and figure out what I'm doing wrong. This looks like a very handy and powerful command line method for screenshots. I do want to master it. Edited November 15, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Cluttermagnet]

ctrl+c does the same Bruno, that's what I always use. Albeit it needs an extra finger, so you win!

Ctrl+C in what environment, striker? In the Top window? And is Bruno talking about highlight, copy, and paste? Are you talking about:right clickselect allCtrl+C??Thanks guys, for all the great suggestions! I continue to learn, albeit perhaps only a little bit at a time. Edited November 15, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Bruno]

Ctrl+C in what environment, striker? In the Top window? And is Bruno talking about highlight, copy, and paste? Are you talking about:right clickselect allCtrl+C??

I am talking about highlight --> paste ( the "copy" part is not needed, use the mouse to highlight and press the wheel button on your mouse to "paste" ) Bruno

[Cluttermagnet]

I am talking about highlight --> paste ( the "copy" part is not needed, use the mouse to highlight and press the wheel button on your mouse to "paste" ) Bruno

"D'oh!" (Clutter slaps self in forehead, Homer Simpson style)I'm so trained in doing things the Windows way. I'll learn the wheel button method eventually. I'm so good at doing things the hard way... Hey, Clutter has installed another copy of Ubuntu on a friend's computer. This is the 3rd one! It took a while to win them over, but I eventually got permission to throw a 2nd hard drive in that computer, save an image of the bloated XP OS onto the new drive, for safety's sake, then put a copy of Feisty on the new drive. I skipped using Gutsy because, for some reason, it has more trouble recognizing the ethernet controller and setting up internet on that Gateway machine. Feisty has no trouble whatever doing the same thing.Also, I managed to figure out, on my own, the way to get the grub bootloader to always boot into XP as the default. That was a non- negotiable requirement for this user. But just wait- after a longer training period, I'll have this person using Ubuntu mostly. Heh! BTW I did the trick of having grub default to "saved" rather than the "0" setting- then you trick grub into only remembering Windows by commenting out the "savedefault" lines included with any kernel versions of Ubuntu which are present in the list. It worked fine, and I understand it is 'future proof' against any new kernel versions that get installed, which would change the numbering of almost everything in that boot list. Have I got that all straight? I'm going mostly by my poor recollection. Anyway it works fine and XP is the default, always, regardless of which OS booted last. Grub Page A 4th install of Ubuntu is in the works for yet another friend, some time this winter, plus the usual major overhaul of Windows, etc.My 1st install of Ubuntu has proven very popular with its owner. That friend, who is more comfortable working with hardware and files, etc. says he uses Ubuntu almost exclusively now for all online activities, and he only fires up XP for gaming, for the most part. That one is also a Feisty install, as I remember. :thumbsup:I have one copy of Dapper out there, for a family member who will be on dialup at first. Dapper was easiest for me when setting up dialup. I'm waiting to hear when they finally get a phone line installed and get serious about getting back online. Then I'll go over and set them up with an inexpensive dialup ISP. And then bring their tower home to do updates. And eventually upgrade them to Feisty or Gutsy.3 'conversions' done, many more to come... :thumbsup:It has been a fun year. Edited December 7, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[striker]

Silently converting in the backyard heh ? Good work done there Clutter, if we all did something like this, half of the worlds would see penguins ! It's a shame several parts of the country are still on dial up only, no DSL available. I think those of us having DSL or even aDSL2+ may consider thereselves lucky.

[Bruno]

I'm so good at doing things the hard way...

LOL . . . as if we did not notice . . . .

3 'conversions' done, many more to come...

Excellent job Clutter !

It has been a fun year.

And so it was for us too . . . Bruno

[Urmas]

3 'conversions' done, many more to come... :thumbsup:It has been a fun year.

Way to go, Clutter! I just "multibuntufied" a P4 Dell and returned it to happy owners.

[Cluttermagnet]

I just had a successful session in Ubuntu with my friend. Surfing the net with Firefox and also sending/ receiving emails for both 'good' and 'throwaway' email accounts online, 'webmail style'. With just a little coaching, I barely had to lay a hand on the mouse. From the grub bootup menu, up arrowing to Ubuntu (default is XP), launching Firefox- everything went great! Now I just need to create another user account (we logged on as clutter). This is too easy. We have another Linux user in the making...It's a good thing I managed to get them to cut off IE and start using Firefox a couple years back (in XP). That makes the transition to a Linux OS ever so much easier. Our browsers are where we live these days. Familiar old Firefox...I keep pointing out how quick Ubuntu boots up (under a minute) and shuts down (well under a minute), contrasted with I'd guess about 5+ minutes for completely booted and all 'helper' security software all settled down in XP, probably ~3 minutes to shut down in XP. That OS has grown very bloated. Now that it has been safely imaged to another drive, I'll work on slimming it down and stopping unnecessary services from running.

[striker]

Nice work ! Spread the word and spread Linux !

[Bruno]

We have another Linux user in the making...

That's good news Clutter . . . . the more the merrier . . . Penguins have more fun ;) Bruno

[mlangdn]

Excellent!

[Cluttermagnet]

Thanks, guys. I continue to learn new things nearly every day. But most of all, it's fun, and I'm a lot happier than I was before I took the plunge and finally tried some distros.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Cluttermagnet