Clutter Learns Linux

[Cluttermagnet]

Here is Clutter's 'maybe a little dumb' question of the day:During my work with the new Dell computer, I consistently saw messages from the BIOS saying that my Ubuntu Dapper live CD is non- bootable. Is this really so? I'd have preferred to have bypassed the Win98SE install entirely; however, it worked out that the way I ended up getting Dapper installed to that small hard drive was through a Windows install. With Windows onboard, the live CD was then recognized and allowed to load a live CD session, then I installed Dapper from there. Is it true, as a general rule, that live CD Linux distros are non-bootable when you are starting with an active, formatted, but empty hard drive? This seems a little confusing to me, yet perhaps it rings true.Another related question: I tried Bruno's bash script routine to try to create a mount point for my Zip100 drive, but I got a rather lengthy error message suggesting a lot of reasons why the drive might not be mountable. I'll put that message in this post later. BTW on that computer, the zip drive is mounted as a slave to the hard drive, and is assigned the letters hdd4. The block major/minor numbers on the zip ended up being 22, 64. Are these script lines still valid?

#!/bin/bashmknod  /dev/hdd4 b 22 64#End script

This is the action I attempted to take, using the bash script.

sudo chmod 755 /etc/rcS.d/S95zipnode

This is the line I used to make the script active.Edit: Oops! Disregard the bash script info above. Today, for no reason I know of, Ubuntu is able to mount and eject that same zip disk as if there was never any problem. Strange.Here's a photo of Clutter's latest computer setup: Dell Dimension 8300. (451x371, 53K) Beige color CDRW and Zip100 are visible; hinged USB and audio jack cover is missing. If I ever get it all cleaned up, I'll also put up a photo of the 'Beige Monolith', Clutters 4-towers/ 2-monitors tabletop setup. BTW notice that the card table the Cluttermaster 2007 was on has disappeared. Now I have a proper wood desk in that corner of the room. The card table wasn't holding up too well under the weight of the monitor and the Dell tower.

Edited April 29, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Bruno]

Edit: Oops! Disregard the bash script info above.

LOL . . . Will do !

Today, for no reason I know of, Ubuntu is able to mount and eject that same zip disk as if there was never any problem. Strange.

Magic happens !! . . . . Bruno

[Cluttermagnet]

How about the other question-Is a Linux live CD not a bootable CD?

[V.T. Eric Layton]

I've never known a Live CD that wasn't bootable.

[zlim]

Clutter, you pose an interesting question. I've only ever booted on computers that had windows installed on the hd. Has anyone booted a distro on a computer with no OS installed?

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Clutter, you pose an interesting question. I've only ever booted on computers that had windows installed on the hd. Has anyone booted a distro on a computer with no OS installed?

Absolutely! I've done it numerous times.

[Cluttermagnet]

I've never known a Live CD that wasn't bootable.

That's kind of what I assumed was true. I was having a lot of trouble initially on that Dell 8300 for an assortment of reasons. For one thing, I had a hard drive which had been erased and then formatted FAT32 under Linux. Remember? I processed several in that way, since they had been in the hands of others- just in case. One was believed to have a boot sector virus on it. That's the time when I was using Bruno's "dd" commands and actually wiping the boot sector, then the whole drive, then recreating the boot sector, then formatting the drive FAT32 using Gparted in a live CD session of Dapper. Maybe that creates a problem from the perspective of the Win98SE startup disk or the BIOS? The BIOS kept claiming I didn't have an MS-DOS boot record, or something to that extent, on that hard drive. I took to messing with a 98SE startup disk using its Windows fdisk, and at times, I had that drive in all sorts of conditions. For example, at one time, I'd recently used fdisk to remove, then again set up an MS-DOS partiton. At one point I had forgotten to reformat to FAT32 over the newly created partition. The BIOS told me, when I tried to install 98SE, that I needed a minimum of 7.xx M of space and didn't have it. M! Not G.

Please wait while setup initializesScanning system registry...Windows setup requires 7340032 bytes available on your C: drive(halts, freezes)

Another error message seen earlier during that memorable, marathon, "install 98SE at all cost" session read:

Setup Detection MessageMessage SU013Setup cannot create files on your start up drive and cannot set up Windows 98. If you have HPFS or NTFS, you must create an MS-DOS boot partition. If you have LANtastic or SuperStor compression, disable it before running setup. See setup.txt on setup disk 1 or the Windows 98 CD.

Lucky 13- heh! That's the part about denying that any MS-DOS partition was there. But it was! Or at least, so I thought. Needless to say, this had me all turned around. I spent several hours fighting this. Eventually, I won, due, no doubt, only to pure stubbornness! It gets richer. The silly BIOS in that machine is unlike most others I've ever seen on an i386 box. It has this special line item in the setup about "Allow OS Installation Y/N", and whenever you change that between states, you go through this silly loop of having to take another 2 passes through the BIOS setup by hitting F2 (again!). The first time, it freaks out because the amount of RAM allocated has changed. Then it fusses once again about something else, I forget what. And I found my self going through this silly fire drill time after time after time. It got monotonous after a while. Oh, and BTW you didn't actually have to change any BIOS settings during those two additional passes, but you did have to visit the line item it complains about (hit Enter, then Escape again). No changes to save, just exit- yet you are forced to go through this nonsense. I now have a BIOS flash update from Dell. Didn't find out what it fixes, however- but I'm tempted to install it anyway.So anyway, the several hours I found I had to spend doing this insanity were finally rewarded by the BIOS allowing the install of 98SE to go foreward, so I proceeded with that, knowing that my actual objective was to end up with a copy of Ubuntu installed. And believe me, I actually let out a loud cheer when I became clear the actual OS install (98SE) was proceeding with no more error messages. What a mess. Anyway, at no time do I ever remember seeing the BIOS in that machine behave as if the Ubuntu 6.06 live CD was a bootable CD. No really. Quite the contrary, it kept insisting that it is not! I know, it kind of doesn't make sense, I'm just reporting what I experienced. The whole thing has me so bugged, I intend to go through the whole mess again using another empty HD formatted FAT32 under Dapper previously. I'll report back as to what I find. Edited April 30, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

I did some digging in, on and around the Ubuntu Forums about this... there are some - not many - incidents like this reported... Dells are involved in most cases. "Screwball BIOS miskin".

[Cluttermagnet]

I did some digging in, on and around the Ubuntu Forums about this... there are some - not many - incidents like this reported... Dells are involved in most cases. "Screwball BIOS miskin".

Thanks, Urmas-Well, it took a bit of time to work through it, but otherwise, no big deal. I'll just try the process again with a different drive and keep doing it until I understand better how the software and hardware are interacting. All part of the learning process.

[Bruno]

Basically every Live or install Linux CD is bootable, but I do remember that in the old days there were CD-Drives that needed drivers you would preload from a floppy ( sometimes 2 ) before it would boot the CD. ( Old P1's )Most of the time installing a new CD-drive would fix this.That a computer would need to have Windows installed before you would be able to boot a CD is new to me . . . . . . but then, I never owned a Dell. Bruno

[Cluttermagnet]

Basically every Live or install Linux CD is bootable, but I do remember that in the old days there were CD-Drives that needed drivers you would preload from a floppy ( sometimes 2 ) before it would boot the CD. ( Old P1's )Most of the time installing a new CD-drive would fix this.That a computer would need to have Windows installed before you would be able to boot a CD is new to me . . . . . . but then, I never owned a Dell. Bruno

There you have it. Well, I never owned a Dell either, until this past week- but the price was right! I'm not really all that upset about what happened. It is simply a learning experience. And I have had some good experiences with Dells belonging to my friends. I'm really thrilled about inheriting a fast computer like this. Now, on to my next question, in the next post below...

[Cluttermagnet]

With this Dell computer, I managed to screw up the grub bootloader (or the partitioning) somewhat. Ever since Ubuntu got installed, it actually fails to load 98SE when I select that option. I really don't care. I'd be just as happy to dump the Windows and then do some partition work with gparted and let the entire 4.3G drive be dedicated to Dapper (for now). Later I might upgrade it to Edgy or even Feisty. I still have so much to learn about Ubuntu, and my interest lies more and more in that direction, less so towards 98SE.So here's my question- what is the best way to delete the 98SE partition and reclaim all that space on the drive for Ubuntu? I don't want to get grub so confused that the machine becomes unbootable. ;)Another related question- if I use gparted to stretch the root partition 'downwards', will gparted also shift the partition data 'downwards', or does it remain in the 'middle' part of a big partition? When you are adjusting partition sizes, is it standard to shift all the data to the beginning of the partition? Or not necessarily?Last question- I heard that Linux doesn't need to get defragmented all the time. Why not?

Edited April 30, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Bruno]

First your last question: Linux spreads it's files less fragmented on the disk, so de-frag is not needed. ( Windows is just a messy OS that is why it needs defragging )The other question: Do NOT delete that partition, only format it and maybe assign it as backup or storage partition. Explanation: If you delete partition hda1 the partition hda2 gets renamed hda1 resulting in the fact that the distro on previous partition hda2 will not boot !! . . . . and when you make a new partition in the then free space it will be named no hda2 so the "disk-order" will be messed up ( the blocks on hda2 will be lower numbers then the blocks on hda1 ) Linux can manage messy up disk-orders but for yourself it gets very confusing. Bruno

[Cluttermagnet]

Thanks, Bruno!OK, I will only format that partition.Presently, grub lists 98SE as an option at bootup. Can I assume that by formatting over that OS, grub will then 'forget' it, simply no longer find it? (Grub does not get confused by this OS deletion by formatting over it?)

[Cluttermagnet]

Next question:I installed firestarter front end for the built in firewall in Linux. But sometimes I forget to start it and I go online without it. Yes, this is not so serious with a Linux OS, but still I would like to run firestarter every time and be 'stealthed' every time, just the same. BTW I'm on dialup but am not behind a router.I have these instructions and need just a little help and advice about them. To make firstarter automatically start when you boot Ubuntu:

Open a root terminal and type `visudo'. This will open the config file for sudo.Find the line that says:username ALL=(ALL) ALLand below it add:username ALL=NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/firestarterwhere `username' is your log-in name. Then, [Esc]:wq to save the file.

HOWTO: Firestarter FirewallSilly me. I forget what Terminal command to give to assume root? I did give "sudo visudo" and got to see what this config file looks like but I did not have edit privileges. I saw a line that says "root ALL=(ALL) ALL".I also do not understand the part about "Then, [Esc]:wq to save the file."I would then go on to use System/ Preferences/ Sessions/ Startup Programs, and add the new startup program in that window, using a command "sudo firestarter --start-hidden". The idea is supposed to be that firestarter can start automatically, but without having to ask for your password every time. As it is now, when I launch firestarter, I have to give my user password. (if I remember to start firestarter).

[Urmas]

Clutter,About Firestarter: Firestarter is ONLY a "GUI interface" for iptables. So it's "intended" to be run only when the user... err... SUPERuser wants to "tweak" the iptables settings. Once that is done, the "current" settings will be loaded upon every startup. Summa summarum: there is no need to have Firestarter open. And - because it isn't intended/designed/whatever to be "auto started", to do so is a rather cumbersome affair (as you have already noticed)... plus, to have unnecessary "root applications" running isn't considered to be a good idea security wise either. This one comes up frequently... do a Ubuntu Forum search, and you'll find many threads like this one:http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=3...ight=firestaterWindoze Grub entry: you can delete the "Win stuff" from /boot/grub/menu.lst the "usual way":

sudo gedit /boot/grub/menu.lst

[Cluttermagnet]

Thanks, Urmas!I sure do like firestarter. It seems like if I forget to start it, then I am less stealthed on the internet. If I do start it, I get a prefect score on two sites I check against. So I want it to run, yet I forget to start it sometimes. So sometimes I do go online by accident with a freshly booted Dapper and 'no firewall', so to speak. At least, the firewall iptables seems to be a bit more 'leaky' and takes hits in those online stealth tests if I don't have firestarter running. The tweaks I've seen do mention that it is a 'security tradeoff' to set it to boot with Ubuntu. So it is not a risk if I always start it manually as only a user? It always asks me for my user password when I start it manually.OK on editing the grub boot menu list. I'll try that.

Edited April 30, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

At least, the firewall iptables seems to be a bit more 'leaky' and takes hits in those online stealth tests if I don't have firestarter running.

Strange. Whatever changes I've made with Firestarter have "stuck"... meaning FS doesn't have to be open. Also, the logs are "active".

[Cluttermagnet]

Strange. Whatever changes I've made with Firestarter have "stuck"... meaning FS doesn't have to be open. Also, the logs are "active".

I'm rechecking. It just passed the grc.com stealth tests with firestarter not turned on. I'm going through pcflank right now...Hmmm, looks like you're right. Firestarter is still off. It's passing everything pcflank has thrown at it so far. I wonder where I got the idea it was failing a few ports or whatever? Perhaps the way iptables is configured out of box gets corrected when you first run firestarter? I don't remember exactly what I did when I first ran firestarter. Anyway, I have this strong, persistent memory of failing some part of the stealth tests with Ubuntu originally. And I don't just mean the browser blabbing. It still does that, but that's not like a port vulnerability or anything as serious. I don't know. I'm just a little confused at the moment. Edited April 30, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

Perhaps the way iptables is configured out of box gets corrected when you first run firestarter?

Yes, that would be it... "closed, but visible" would be the "out-of-the-box" verdict. After you've run the Firestarter wizard, you'll be "in stealth".

I'm just a little confused at the moment.

My default mode.

[Bruno]

Presently, grub lists 98SE as an option at bootup. Can I assume that by formatting over that OS, grub will then 'forget' it, simply no longer find it? (Grub does not get confused by this OS deletion by formatting over it?)

Hi Clutter . . . no grub does not get confused, it will indeed simply no longer find it so using the Windows entry will no longer boot anything.Like Urmas suggested you can simply remove that entry ( 4 lines ) from the /boot/grub/menu.lstYour firestarter question is confusing . . . . from what I read the issue is solved ?? If it is not and you want it to start at boot, there is an easier way the the one you described editing visudo . . . . . you can make a script as we did for the zip drive, same concept if needed I can help.Now a word about the visudo command . . . . it is a command to edit the sudoers file and it makes use of the "Vi" editor . . . a bit complicated editor but the only one that can edit the sudoers file. Once you opne the Vi editor and you edit a file you can close and save in 2 ways ( and ONLY these 2 ways else you risk corrupting the file for editing ):1). Pressing the Esc-key and typing :wq2). Pressing the Esc-key and holding down the Shift-key while pressing the Z-key twice.( Well I told you the Vi editor is kind of complicated )If you want to learn how to use the Vi editor have a read here: Vi Revisited Bruno

[Cluttermagnet]

Thanks, Bruno and Urmas!Apparently Ubuntu 'learns' and adapts the iptables part of the OS? That seems to be what I have seen here. It looks like if you run Ubuntu 'stock', you advertise your presence on the internet with closed- but visible- ports. If you download and install firestarter, then run it, it appears that the OS 'learns' and now all your ports are completely stealthed (so far as grc and pcflank can determine). BTW I have not set any new rules using firestarter. None at all, either for incoming or outgoing traffic. Urmas, I definitely remember opening and running the firestarter wizard after I did the install.If this is true, and it apparently is true, this would accomplish most of what I wanted to. The only remaining interest I'd have is to look at the logs from time to time. Not for any real reason, just because it's academically interesting. For viewing the logs, it would be sufficient to simply start firestarter manually, provided that Urmas is right, and the ip stack is keeping a log anyway (with firestarter off).I will read your "Vi Revisited", Bruno. It would be very good for me to learn that. Your description of how to close and save safely after editing under 'visudo' is very clear to me now. The other writer wasn't clear- I'm sure he was assuming greater knowledge of Linux than what I have right now.BTW I'm going to be very cautious and get good help when contemplating doing things as root. As Eric has reminded us, "... the power to assume root is the power to destroy..."

Edited April 30, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

BTW I have not set any new rules using firestarter.

You didn't have to... Firestarter's Wizard creates its default rule set. And logs - I just checked: there was one entry in the events log from yesterday... I haven't had Firestarter open in weeks.

[Cluttermagnet]

Windoze Grub entry: you can delete the "Win stuff" from /boot/grub/menu.lst the "usual way":

sudo gedit /boot/grub/menu.lst

OK, I finally got around to formatting to FAT32 over the 98SE install on that hard drive. I notice that the volume is still mounted when Ubuntu boots, but there are no longer any files in the partition. (Why, then, does it still get mounted?)I noticed also that grub still lists the no longer present 98SE OS. So I opened up the grub menu using the code above. I think I see what I need to do, but since I'm not 100 percent sure, I'm going to wait until I get some more specific advice. I see that the 98SE entry is at the end of the menu. Looks like one would simply erase all after the "Debian Automagic Kernels List- Divider", but I need to know very specifically just exactly what I would erase, starting where. We next see what I believe is some commented lines about "...this is a divider, added to separate..."But then on the next two lines I see some uncommented items:

Title Other operating systemsroot

Next comes some more commented lines "...This item added by the Debian installer..."Then some uncommented lines which are obviously the 98SE OS entry.Sorry, but it's just not clear exactly what to remove and what to keep, below that Debian divider area.Also one other question: You mentioned you can add some jazzy color scheme(s), probably blue, I gather. That occurs above in the menu, and all such lines about color are commented (looks like). I'd like to add some color, yes- but which items to uncomment? The actual colors line seems to contain two separate color schemes:

# Pretty colours# color cyan/blue white/blue

Yes, color is spelled both ways within that quote, that is how it is listed in there. So do I uncomment the entire 2nd line? Or is that actually two different color schemes? Do I have to pick one of the two? Or would I leave the first two lines commented and add a third line underneath them? If so, what would that new line read?Thanks!Clutter

Edited May 1, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

OK, I finally got around to formatting to FAT32 over the 98SE install on that hard drive. I notice that the volume is still mounted when Ubuntu boots, but there are no longer any files in the partition. (Why, then, does it still get mounted?)

FAT32s are "fair game"... they are mounted by default.

Also one other question: You mentioned you can add some jazzy color scheme(s), probably blue, I gather. That occurs above in the menu, and all such lines about color are commented (looks like). I'd like to add some color, yes- but which items to uncomment?

If you uncomment the line color cyan/blue white/blue, you'll get cyan text on blue background, and white text on black background when an item is highlighted.From my /boot/grub/menu.lst:

# Pretty colourscolor white/blue yellow/black

... says mine. But... I've cheated... there is a wee GUI tool for Grub editing called GrubED. It's not in the repos, but if you've registered in the Ubuntu Forums you can get it from here:http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2...ighlight=grubedDownload the .zip (unless you prefer Spanish, the .tar.gz is in Spanish), into your home directory. Unpack it in there (right click menu). Open Terminal (here's assuming "clutter" is your user name):

$ cd /home/clutter/GrubEd$ sudo ./install

Installed. (Now you can delete this stuff in your home directory.) You can run it from Terminal:

gksudo GrubEd

... or , make a Start Menu item... right click on "Apps Places System", choose "Edit Menus". From the left menu, choose "System Tools". From right, click "Add Item".Name: GrubEDComment: you can be creative hereCommand: gksudo GrubEdThat's it. Like I said... I cheated.

Edited May 1, 2007 by Urmas

[Cluttermagnet]

I uncommented the blue color scheme line in the grub menu, and at next boot, it was indeed blue. Looks a lot nicer! Thanks, Urmas.Tonight I'm finally going to swap the 3.2GHz P4 CPU back into the Dell computer, now that I've dumped Windows from that drive (98SE supposedly has problems above 2.4GHz processor speeds, so I hear). I'll let you know how that went. In a few days, my 1G DDR 400 RAM will be here, and I'll pop that in, too. (Have been running on an old Celeron 2.4GHz 128K, up to now).

Edited May 3, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Cluttermagnet]

I've apparently got major problems with Ubuntu 6.06 on my Dell Dimension 8300 computer, 3.2GHZ P4. I don't know where to begin to describe it. I guess I'll just say that it is behaving somewhat like (gasp!) Windows. Unexplained crashes.It boots normally. I've gotten dialup working on it. I've run Firefox and downloaded a few extensions. I've updated my repositories lists in Synaptic, all but one which failed. Oh, and it also manifested those complete freezes requiring reboots, associated with it going into screensaver mode- so I disabled screensaver mode as with the other Ubuntu installation.I've seen freezes, I've seen where it drops out of normal desktop mode and starts asking me for ID and password again. I can't yet connect any specific behavior with any specific action or environment. I'm kind of stumped at the moment. I'm having symptoms I've never seen before, so far, with my limited Ubuntu experience, some of it a bit bizzarre.One thing new- the 3.2 GHz processor was just put back in the computer earlier in the evening, but everything seemed to be running correctly for a good while, before problems set in. And these problems seem to be increasing in frequency now. Perhaps they are in some way connected to dialup networking. I can say that dialup on this particular box is more wierd that it has been on my other, reliable Ubuntu 6.06 box.I can't rule out that this might be CPU overheat related. I have no way (that I know of) to measure CPU temperature right now. The stock, copper core, Dell cooler with heat pipes coming out the sides certainly looks adequate to the job. I think I assembled it right, including the application of thermal grease. The 2.4GHz CPU I removed definitely looked like I had it installed correctly- thin layer of grease, very good CPU/ cooler contact. But there were two minor issues. The 3.2GHz CPU had some minor burring of the aluminum heat spreader on top. It came that way. Factory installation had relied on a relatively thick, plastic, 'sil pad' type instead of grease. This was more forgiving of the burr. I fixed that by shearing it off carefully, using a new razor blade. Also, I used a 'lesser' grease, the white, Z5, aluminum oxide type, as that is all I have on hand right now.I'm half tempted to just wipe the drive and start over. That wouldn't take much more time right now than the thing has already wasted with freezes and crashes. It's not a big deal to redo things that way. I don't have much time investment yet with software downloads and a lot of configuring. And anyway, I think I want to install to one of my 40G drives, as this 4.3G is a little tight. I was in a bit too much of a hurry when I set this OS up. I'm inclined to slow down and just have another go at it. I'm really not all that irritated with it- all part of the learning experience. Comments?

Edited May 2, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Bruno]

Tonight I'm finally going to swap the 3.2GHz P4 CPU back into the Dell computer,

I've apparently got major problems with Ubuntu 6.06 on my Dell Dimension 8300 computer, 3.2GHZ P4. . . . . .

Hi Clutter . . . your story is slightly confusing . . . . but from what I understand you have been swapping hardware around and after that you got sudden freezes and crashes.Now, if you, for example have a distro installed on a HD and put that HD in another computer with other hardware specs you can expect trouble because it will load the wrong drivers for that hardware . . . . the same trouble you can expect if you do major swapping of hardware ( mobo, cpu ) in the same system.

I'm half tempted to just wipe the drive and start over.

This would be the best/easy/quick solution indeed. Bruno

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Clutter is becoming a "re-installation" expert... like me.

[Urmas]

Clutter is becoming a "re-installation" expert... like me.

Eric, the role model for tinkering penguins.