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The Software Hall of Shame!

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GolfProRM

Alrighty... Time to get this thread fired back up again!Scot's new list of nominees need some work... :)I don't really think the Palm Desktop Software really belongs on the shameware list... The newest version (available from http://www.palm.com ) is actually quite a step up in quality. They added a very nice quick installer, and fixed a lot of the WinXP issues that occurred in the previous versions... It definitely isn't the greatest software out there, but it's definitely not shameware material...

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CACasal

I see that Incredimail has been tentatively put on the list for the Software Hall of Shame. <_< Incredimail...though it gobbles up space, is a fun mail program to use. It does a great job of doing what it proposes to do. Yes...it could be called a frivilous program...maybe even useless...but then it's fun....the kids love it, and frankly, so do I.CACasal.

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dbchamber

Intuit Turbotax should come OFF the list. They have dropped the horrible product activation. I will go back to them next year because the program is much better than H&R Block's TaxCut. I see no reason why Delorme's Street Atlas should be on the list. I use it several times a week on my desktop and my laptop and find that it does everything that I need and does it well.Dave Chamberlain

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pknudsen

First, shame on whoever nominated Agent! It's a fine newsreader, and does everything I need.Second, what's the problem with Real Player? Works ok for me.(edit) Come to think of it, why can't this forum be available in newsgroup format? It works much better than web. (Or is it?)

Edited by pknudsen

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stanrich

Roxio is listed as Shameware in the SFNL email I just read. however, I have installed the 5.yadda.basic version plus the 5.3.5.10 patch and have experienced absolutely no problems on either WIN98 or WIN2K systems. These were clean installs.It should be noted that I do a custom install and I NEVER install Direct CD...

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pknudsen
Scot, I'm surprised that you're a fan of XP, given MS's policy of product activation. I'm currently still using Windows98 and am dreading the day when I have to replace my computer, since the new one will almost surely have XP. 
Relax. If you get XP on a new computer, there is no activation since it's already installed. And anyway the activation expires after 90 days.

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chrisclu

I want to add my commendation to AVG. I have been using the Pro version for a few years and couldn't be happier. The support is great and and the program has a small footprint.I was blown away to see it on the "hall of shame" I would put it in the "Hall of Fame" <_< Chris

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basx

Cluttermagnat:I never heard of free PDF. What I do is downlaod the Ghostscript/Ghost view. Then I downloaded the redmon and chose a laser printer. I followed the instruction to create the rsp file according to the help. It doesn't quite work so instead of automating it, I manually do a 2 step.Glad that Wordperfect has its publish to PDF option <_< xavier

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Master K

Adobe Illustrator and Acrobat should not be on any List of Shame. They are both very good and powerful programs. The problem is they are very powerfull. Most people think ALL software should be brain dead easy to use without reading the manual or any user effort at all.Adobe Software is not that, however if you try and learn why they are built the way they are you will lean what Thousands of graphics professionals have know for years. Adobe apps are in fact faster because of their design. They are not built to have everything at one click, that is a bad design in a complex program. These programs are built assuming one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse. They use of keyboard shortcuts and modifiers is extensive and powerfull.They may not be for the novice but that is not Shamefull, that is their point. They are PROFESSIONAL TOOLS.

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milleron
Forte Agent Newsreader is a very good program but is a memory hog and, at least for me, runs inadequately on XP.
Funny, I remember running Agent 1.X on a 486SX2-50@66 with 20MB of RAM. You have to understand that this system took 3-5 minutes to load Eudora 4 or Netscape 4 and could not even play mp3's, yet it ran Agent pefectly. Since Agent is still on 1.X, I suspect peformance would not change drastically. Besides Agent, I bet almost none of today's winsock applications would even load on the old computer.
I have used FreeAgent on Win95 (486-66, 20M RAM) and Win98 platforms. Never had much trouble at all with it. I like it a lot. An exemplary piece of freeware, as I see it. As to memory hogging, I just now tried firing it up and shutting back down a few times. It seems to consume about 5 percent of resources, and I have never noted any tendency for it to leak memory. I have been using an older copy, however- mine says 1.21/32. Maybe there are later versions that fail to please.It takes a few seconds to open, even on my 1.6GHz P4 machine, but not so long that I have any real complaints. As I remember, it opened reasonanbly fast on my 486, which also took a good long time to load Netscape 4.5. :lol:
After reading Scot's Newsletter, I followed this thread for twenty minutes just to find out who was badmouthing Forte Agent. The reason is that I want to challenge that person to a duel. You can pick the weapons -- pistols or knives -- but it's going to be to the death. I now realize that it was karma rather than coincidence that led me just this week to write to Forte to compliment them on this incomparably great program that I've used every day for the past nine years. It blows away every other News reader ever made, especially that pathetic POS called Outlook Express. I use it more than any other piece of software I own. It's incredibly reliable and saves me a lot of time. I therefore would not complain if it were a "memory hog," but it's definitely not. Where the original poster came up with that bit of misinformation is beyond me. Perhaps he or she was referring to the size of the files it generates -- i.e., disk space as opposed to the common definition of "memory hog" which refers to using an unjustigiable amount of RAM. If that's the case, then the amount of drive space used is a function of the amount of Usenet posts browsed, settings, or failure to maintain the database, and not any shortcoming of Agent.I implore you to remove Forte Agent from the list and place it where it belongs -- namely, in the Hall of Fame!! :blink: ThanksRon

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JerseyGuy

Just got the latest edition of the e-zine. Thanks for all your great work, makes for a good read!!I would like to stand up in favor of Grisoft AVG anti-virus to NOT be included in the Hall of Shame. By the way I do agree whole heartedly with the list thusfar!!! I build and service quite a few systems and everyone that hits my hands, after clearing it with the box owner, I wipe out McAfee and Especially Norton virus and install AVG. Goes in clean, runs nicely in the background without upsetting windows [that is no easy task! ... do I hear an AMEN!] and does a fine job of catching the bad guys. All this and it is amazingly free! I duly appreciate their generosity. I do admit to end running the free registration process for all those boxes. I used to sign everyone up and get a valid key, until a pattern emerged....it's ALWAYS the same key! Now I just use that key to get it in and running and encourage them to go register it.So far I would have to guess at perhaps 30+on AVG and so far so good. PLUS they update very often. My $.02 for those who careJerseyGuy

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ronholder

I have to chime in with my support for Grisoft and AVG Free edition!They deserve kudos galore for providing a free antivirus program with real-time system protection. The installation is always problem freeon all versions of Windows from 95 to XP. (I've installed it on lots ofPC's of all brands, speeds, and OS's, never a problem.)I just worked on someone's PC who had been infected by the BugBear.B worm. They had Norton Antivirus installed, but theirsubscription had run out recently and were not receiving updates.(Not that I'm down on Symantec, that's what I use myself, and the money they take in from NAV pays for the SARC site,with its comprehensive information and free removal tools,which Grisoft doesn't have.)Another vote to put AVG in the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Shame!One item on the nominees for Hall of Shame I agree with:Adobe Reader 6.0 (NOT Acrobat Reader 5.x or before.)The new installation scheme is unbelievably slow, and theprogram was crashing on my XP system; I uninstalled itand went back to 5.1.I think it was a totally boneheaded move to make such bigand negative changes to their Acrobat reader software.Ronald Holder

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RobertM

Here are my thoughts on a few of the new nominees... * Adobe Acrobat Reader (and the .PDF file format?) - I don't have a problem with this, except I did have to repair my installation of Adobe Reader 6 for it to work after installing it. PDF is great when you don't want to have to worry about fonts, programs, ... operating systems. Not that it couldn't be improved or that people couldn't explore other options when possible, though, but I use it to send music I compose to friends who do not have my chord fonts (add-ons to my notation program)--much less my notation program.* AOL Netscape Communicator 4.x - I don't know anyone who would stand up for this program, especially when it's 2003. I just don't know if it's popular enough anymore for people to realize how bad it was. Slow and bloated, not to mention awful standards support. People would seriously be better off using Navigator 3, which understands no CSS, to help CSS designers move forward...unfortunately, that means a lot of Web pages that are still using bad HTML--using it for presentation as opposed to structure--may not display the best in there, but I doubt anyone using either of these still cares.* Grisoft AVG - It's what I use, and I think it's quite nice, but--then again--I've never had much experience with other AV programs.* Qualcomm Eudora Email - I think it's good, and I know Scot does, too ... but my only major gripe is that it looks ugly, especially on Windows XP when using Luna.* Microsoft Access, Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Word, Microsoft Office - I've never used any version at home besides 2003 Beta 2, and I'm quite happy with it. Word isn't awful, but I always seem to be the one to teach my friends how to control AutoCorrect. With Office as a whole, one thing I notice, though, is them releasing new versions with few changes and the fact that they can *never* seem to use native controls/widgets.* Microsoft Internet Explorer - I wholly support adding this to the list of shameware. Lots of reasons. For one, it's 2003, and the browser hasn't changed much since IE 4--or even 3. They've increased their support for standards, but it's certainly not enough. Try (advanced) CSS 2, the *standard* DOM, or an ARGB PNG image. And in the browsing interface/metaphor itself, tabbed browsing and other useful features have swept the rest of the world by storm, but nothing's new in IE. As if this isn't enough, they may or may not continue standalone development of Win/IE outside the OS. That could be bad news if its popularity remains. But another Microsoft official said they would continue development, so I guess nobody knows yet. They did recently axe future versions Mac/IE, which actually was good (both page rendering/standards and the interface itself), but I hear they're giving tips to Apple for Safari.Microsoft Windows Me - always worked well for me, but I can't speak for the others I've heard from who've had problems. If it were just up to me, I'd say it was great (other than the fact that they pretended to remove real-mode DOS ... not that they didn't, but that it was unnecessary and got in the way often).As for the current working list, here are my thoughts:* AOL America Online - very big, always installs RealPlayer and other things even if I already have them *and* overwrites their startup preferences, is slow to respond to members' feature requests, claims to have "flexibe, powerful" mail controls but doesn't ... where do my problems end? I'm actully still a subscriber because it isn't *that* bad, but I really think they could improve. I'm neutral about keeping it on or taking it off the list.* Apple QuickTime - it might be from Apple, but it has a horrible interface! Also, it doesn't have as much power as some other media players. I'd say to keep it on. Older versions were good, though.* Microsoft MSN Messenger/Windows Messenger - not quite sure what's so bad about these that people want them on here; if it weren't from Microsoft, I think most people would like it more. Also, some seem to think that the Messenger Service popups (from the unrelated Messenger service) are from these.* Microsoft Outlook - 2003 Beta 2 is good for me, but there's the minor issue of security. :-) In the past year, I've only gotten one spam message on the account I use with this program, so I know what I receive. Others aren't so lucky.* Microsoft Outlook Express - My thoughts on this are similar to Outlook, except for the fact that they haven't changed the program in years....* Microsoft Windows Media Player - I really like this program. RealPlayer and QuickTime are certainly not options for me because I've tried them and hated it. WinAmp seems like my only other choice if I want WMP's features, and I've tried to use it, but I'm torn between an old but supported version 2 or a new but not-a-lot-of-stuff-for-it version 3. And the default skin is *very* small--and I even have good vision (err, well, except for that colorblindness thing). I can't find a good-looking skin to use instead; I'd prefer one that looks like Windows XP (and one I found that claimed to kinda did but didn't use the right images for all controls/widgets and was overly blue). I found a WMP 9 skin, which I like, except the blocky fonts on the left side. A Whistler watercolor skin I found also looks good, but I don't like the blocky fonts sometimes. Plus the company, despite AOL ownership, is very unprofessional. I was not happy to open WinAmp 2 to be greeted by a swear word, and their website is filled with sexual references and bad words. WMP seems like my best option, unless I can get used to Winamp3...* RealNetworks RealPlayer and RealOne - I support these being on this list. All the way.Sorry for such a long post! Now I'm on my way to the Hall of Fame to see what I can say. :-D

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Guest ThunderRiver

Well, I know what you meant, but the main thing is that it is indeed a resource hog. Besides, it doesn't always close because it loves to hang on exit by refusing to close. Sometimes it would force Xp/2k to reboot, which is a bad thing. I have far more success in Nero than Easy CD Creator. If you are new to CDR writing, you probably will love Roxio more. On top of Roxio, I don't necessarily agree that PDF or Adobe Acrobat Reader should be considered as shameware. People don't necessarily realize that how much companies and SMB rely on PDF format as the universal standard. So many product spec and information are stored in PDF so you can view it cross-platform, such as in Windows, Mac OS, Linux, and even your Palm OS. It is soo widely popular that you can't even underestimate it. I know Microsoft is trying to promote its own proprietary software like PDF, however, it is not cross-platform yet unfortunately. Besides that, PGP and Outlook Express are my friends...ThunderRiver

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allgoodthings

Hall of Shame. Good idea. What I would like to see is a couple of reasons why the program is listed though! If you list them due to security problems, then you might as well add your computer too! Name one program on the market without a security flaw!Question: how can a program be on the the hall of shame and the hall of fame at the same time?Fighting for my rights:Outlook Express - I use it. Simple and ease of use. No cumbersome menus to wade thru to open a message.MSN Messenger - Beats ICQ hands down! Now that is an annoying program!Kazaa - yes, spyware galore. Try KazaaLite!Acrobat Reader 6 - yes, you need IE 6 SP1 just to install it! 5.1 works fine and the PDF format is a lot smaller file than a Word DOC file.Microsoft Money - one of the better financial programs I've come across. Quicken's interface was the most impossible to use!Excel - much easier to use that Quattro ProBackup MyPC - Best backup program on the market! Works with every type of media. Recovery system has saved my ass! Highly recommended.Norton Antivirus - Stable, less of a resource hog than McAfee. Cleans viruses in email before you even click on the message!My Hall of Fame Nominees:Internet Download Manager - up to 400% faster downloads than thru regular web page downloads. Doesn't take over all your downloads unless you want it to. Doesn't take control over opening files on your hard drive either!Poppy for Windows - quick way to check if you have email without having to leave your email program open.Pop-Up Stopper - blocks 95% of those web page adsTray Manager - helps hide/organize icons in the systray (more for Win9x users)Cacheman - helps RAM fragmentationTClockEx - What the clock in the tray should have been (time, calendar, resouce monitor)PcAnywhere - secure and a great way to access your work/home computer from home/workWord Perfect - reveal codes, what more can I say....Outlook Express Backup - backs up your email, favorites, settings, the whole caboodle!Hall of Shame Nominees:Not really a program, but more of a complaint against new types of popup ads. The appear on a web page and the only way to close it is to click on it and it opens up a new page which you then close!Zone Alarm - new versions and that interface. Good program, lousy look!Well, that's my opinions...PaT.

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Guest ThunderRiver

Pat, nice comments!For those that works for corproate business, you should look into Norton Antivirus Corporate Edition 8.0. It is the best antivirus you can find for your business. It updates its virus definition in the background without any user intervention. What's more, the subscription to the virus definitino is life time, not expiration. I am running it on a number of machines as well as the place I work for, and it is absolutely a nice program.ICQ is a very very lousy resource-hoggy program. I recommend Miranda ICQ, which is open source and very very nicely built to fit your need. Other than that, I too agree that MSN Messenger is the best messenger around. The public preview for MSN Messenger 6 should be out this Thursday.We haven't tried Adobe Acrobat Reader 6 on Windows platform yet but we upgraded to SP1 on Xp a long long time ago.Pat, a program can exist in both fame and shame because people have different opinions and don't always agree with each other. I love Outlook Express more than any other email clients though it is abit crashy, but I don't consider it as a bad program. On the other hand, more people seem to experience difficulties with it than other alternative choices; thus it is perfectly fine for them to say it is a shamewareI use Kazaa Lite from time to time and did you know that the latest version of K-lite has memory patch so that you will always be master (1000)? Anyway, I recommend people join BMGMusic. You select 7 CDs for free now, and buy one at reguar price and get another 5 CDs for free. and after you are a member, you still pay a lot cheaper for music CDs.. so why not?

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fjbr

I just got the newsletter and decide to get registered so that I could put in my 2 cents worth. Now to see if I can keep it to that.Hall of Shame:Easy CD Creator ?? I always thought my verion 4.0 to be inoffensive. Now if we were to talk about Direct CD . . .I'd support the inclusion of all Intuit products. They've been taking product design and consumer relations training from Microsoft.Grisoft AVG? I don't think so! I've used both free and pro versions with nary a complaint. It's a good solid product.With great regret I nominate WordPerfect 10. It was just so bad at so many things. (not bad enough to make me revert to the alternative)I agree with the removal of JASC Paint Shop Pro although I'd not put it on the Fame list either.Hall of Fame:My one entirely unreserved nomination would be the Semware Editor (semware.com) which is the best ever programmable text editor for almost everthing.With only minor reservations: Pegasus, Opera, Firebird (used whenever a brain dead website doesn't work in Opera), and Password Administrator (Infinitron Software)

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jlphillips

Gator/Gator Corp.Real Player

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jlphillips

What is your reason for Grisoft?I use it on two machines with no problems.

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ebayfriend

:rolleyes: I use Outlook Express 6 rather than Outlook 2000. Mostly I am satisfied with the program.

I use Easy CD Creator 5 Platinum. I rarely have a coaster when recording. I use Direct CD for backing up my most frequently used files, mostly without any problems.I have used Microsoft Money for about 10 years and am currently using Money 2002. I admit it gets more bloated each time. I do a minimal install that tames the program a bit. Also, you need to know how to tailor the program to your own tastes and turn off the sponsor links. Years ago I tried Quicken and coult not even use expense names longer than 8 characters. That may have changed in more recent versions. I probably will never find out.In the back up programs, I have used both Ghost and PowerQuest's Drive Image. Both programs have given me some problems when recording to cdr. Fortunately, it has worked out that when one is giving me fits, the other will usually run with no difficulty. In Ghost, some files that were shown as validated would not install when I needed a backup image.

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JiGS

About SHAMEWARE:I like PDF. You have to remember that it's for printing more than design. I often send to PDF so that it can be printed on any computer (OS independent). It's not for simple forms or screen readability as much as is is for hardcopy readability. I do have to admit that any Adobe viewer above Reader 4.xx sucks on any computer. Too many features bloats the product.I didn't like PSP until I had to restore a photo. I tried Photoshop to no avail. The features in PSP proved more useful. If JASC would just fix the UI, all would be well.MSN messenger (and all IMs) suck. It sucks to veiw Hotmail and have Messenger start for no apparent reason.Product Avtivation (or any DRM) is rediculous. Why buy the product if I'm actually only leasing it?!?SPAM sucks. Bloatware sucks. SpyWare sucks. Viruses suck. AOL sucks. AOL will always suck. Bad uninstallation programs suck. Trying to explain to your Mom why you need to reinstall Windows again: priceless.

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JiGS

Oh. Also, software pirates suck. Thanks for driving up my (an honest consumer's) prices up and causing DRM (and product activation).What?!? Not enough available freeware and OSS? Go get a day job. :rolleyes:

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allgoodthings
Pat, nice comments!For those that works for corproate business, you should look into Norton Antivirus Corporate Edition 8.0. It is the best antivirus you can find for your business. It updates its virus definition in the background without any user intervention. What's more, the subscription to the virus definitino is life time, not expiration. I am running it on a number of machines as well as the place I work for, and it is absolutely a nice program.ICQ is a very very lousy resource-hoggy program. I recommend Miranda ICQ, which is open source and very very nicely built to fit your need. Other than that, I too agree that MSN Messenger is the best messenger around. The public preview for MSN Messenger 6 should be out this Thursday.We haven't tried Adobe Acrobat Reader 6 on Windows platform yet but we upgraded to SP1 on Xp a long long time ago.Pat, a program can exist in both fame and shame because people have different opinions and don't always agree with each other. I love Outlook Express more than any other email clients though it is abit crashy, but I don't consider it as a bad program. On the other hand, more people seem to experience difficulties with it than other alternative choices; thus it is perfectly fine for them to say it is a shamewareI use Kazaa Lite from time to time and did you know that the latest version of K-lite has memory patch so that you will always be master (1000)? Anyway, I recommend people join BMGMusic. You select 7 CDs for free now, and buy one at reguar price and get another 5 CDs for free. and after you are a member, you still pay a lot cheaper for music CDs.. so why not?
Norton Antivirus also updates it's definitions without any user intervention too! With 2003 they added an options for the program to check for program updates but I found it didn't work properly...Yeah, MSN 6 looks pretty good, only problem I'm willing to bet is that it'll only work with XP....I've only used KazaaLite when I need something I really need. I buy a lot of used CDs when I check out stuff and then make my own compilation Cds.

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Guest ThunderRiver
Oh.  Also, software pirates suck.  Thanks for driving up my (an honest consumer's) prices up and causing DRM (and product activation).What?!?  Not enough available freeware and OSS?  Go get a day job. :rolleyes:
First of all, it is not entirely software pirates' fault.If software wasn't too expensive, software pirates would not exist in the first place. Thinkn about Windows for less than 50 bucks, I bet more people have incentives to pay for it. Second of all, DRM is not Product Activation. Product Activation is online registration for your product, whereas DRM controls file/data you create, such as music CD and movie DVD. Product Activation is only aimed to ease casual copy from people back in old time when someone borrow a copy of software from a friend who bought it. Software pirates aren't affected by it.Lastly, I think you need to control your temper on this board.

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Guest ThunderRiver
Norton Antivirus also updates it's definitions without any user intervention too! With 2003 they added an options for the program to check for program updates but I found it didn't work properly...Yeah, MSN 6 looks pretty good, only problem I'm willing to bet is that it'll only work with XP....I've only used KazaaLite when I need something I really need. I buy a lot of used CDs when I check out stuff and then make my own compilation Cds.
One feature in Norton Antivirus Corproate that doesn't exist in 2003 is that the subscription will never expire. 2003 expires in 1 year.MSN 6 will support Windows 2000, but I doubt it for Windows Me or less. Just like Office System 2003 where it has ceased support for Windows 9.x

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allgoodthings
:rolleyes: I use Outlook Express 6 rather than Outlook 2000. Mostly I am satisfied with the program.

I use Easy CD Creator 5 Platinum. I rarely have a coaster when recording. I use Direct CD for backing up my most frequently used files, mostly without any problems.I have used Microsoft Money for about 10 years and am currently using Money 2002. I admit it gets more bloated each time. I do a minimal install that tames the program a bit. Also, you need to know how to tailor the program to your own tastes and turn off the sponsor links. Years ago I tried Quicken and coult not even use expense names longer than 8 characters. That may have changed in more recent versions. I probably will never find out.In the back up programs, I have used both Ghost and PowerQuest's Drive Image. Both programs have given me some problems when recording to cdr. Fortunately, it has worked out that when one is giving me fits, the other will usually run with no difficulty. In Ghost, some files that were shown as validated would not install when I needed a backup image.

I tried Outlook but found it really strange that it doesn't support Newsgroups when it's supposed to be the full version of Outlook Express!!!Have you ever tried Nero? Once you've gone Nero, you'll never go back! As for backups, try Backup MyPC from Stomp. Supports disk spanning and will put almost 1GB of data on a 700MB cd. For copying, try CloneCD. With the exception of one disk, every copy has worked flawlessly.Yeah, some of that stuff in Money I just hate (announcements , financial news, investment summary, etc..). I'm still using 2001 and it does all that I need to do. As long as I can download my bank statements into it, I'm happy. I remember reading about MS Word once, of the total program, most people use about 35% of the features... And how much disk space will Office 2003/XP take???Like I said above, try Backup MyPC. It'll allow you to create a Disaster Recovery set which you can use to restore your entire system from bootup. Put the 1st cd in and follow the instructions... You're up and running in less than an hour! I've got it set for weekly (twice a week) scheduled backups so if my drive ever fails again (It did once, 2 weeks after I got the program. Now is that scary or what???) I'm covered...PaT.

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allgoodthings
One feature in Norton Antivirus Corproate that doesn't exist in 2003 is that the subscription will never expire. 2003 expires in 1 year.MSN 6 will support Windows 2000, but I doubt it for Windows Me or less. Just like Office System 2003 where it has ceased support for Windows 9.x
With antivirus products, I usually buy the new version every 2 years or so as newer type of viruses mean you need a beter virus protection program. So buying a subscription 2 more times is pretty cheap.I'll stick with MSN Messenger 4.6. Same as Windows 98 SE. Works great. I think I've had maybe 1 crash in the last month. My computer runs 24 hours a day.PaT.

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quark

Hall of Shame is questionable. Too much personal antipathy, not much enlightenment.One person's crudgrater is another person's livelihood.The real Hall of Shame software should be reserved for those programs that are purposely malicious, infect your system, mine your personal data, and so on.I hate Shockwave when I encounter it on the web, but I don't have to load it, and don't have to return to sites that require it. And of course I don't use it.

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Dug

In Scott's last newsletter, Quickbooks, Eudora and Symantec (several products) were listed as nominees to the Hall of Shame. I know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder but what's the problem with these products/vendors? Quickbooks is no work horse but it gets the job done and gives small businesses relief from the overhead that full accounting packages lay on us. And Eudora? Ugly, yes but, like Quickbooks, it gets the job done and, IMHO, has the best filters around. Lastly, there's Symantec. There's probably some good arguments for the nomination but I've used their products for years and they deliver an important software essential...reliability. They get the job done too. I guess I'm practical - it it works, stick with it.

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