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The Software Hall of Shame!

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Guest genaldar
My 2 nominees:1. Apple Quicktime - People complain about Real and WMP.  Personally, I've never had much difficulty with those apps.  Now, Quicktime is another story.  Conflicts with an older version, ugly/stupid interface, and I cringe everytime I try to install kids software that requires this garbage.  About half the time, the program fails so I have actually lost money because of Apple.2. AVG - For some reason, some users like this program.  Everybody claims it finds viruses that Norton cannot.  Well, perhaps the reason is this program produces a significant amount of false positives.  The last thing I need is some AV program deleting/moving files it shouldn't.  Usually, I don't mind what other software applications others run.  However, I am fed up with that D*** footer I see everywhere claiming that the email was scanned by AVG.  I consider this no better than your typical spam and a waste of bandwidth.Anyway, no matter what anybody nominates here, there could only be one winner for the worst program.  It has got to be Outlook Express.  Remember that monopoly talk about IE and Netscape?  At least IE is a good browser.  Nobody talks about how everybody now uses that pitiful application, OE.  Everybody is already familiar with the security issues, but nobody talks about its bad interface.  Dumb design, poor navigation, and poor UI are among its problems.  Yet, other clients copy this look, so we have even more worthless clients.  If emails weren't bad enough, Windows users started using OE for newsgroups.  This program is unusable as a news client so when people start having problems, I try to help them.  Of course, they ignore me as because they think I am anti-MS or something when I suggest a switch.  It appears that nobody wants to admit that OE is a POS.
I hate quicktime too, especially in xp. The look is horrible. The worst part though is that stupid quicktime task it keeps adding to start up. I have it set to control no file types and I got rid of the stupid system tray icon and told it to not load automatically any more. I even told it not to update automatically. But every time I open up quicktime it puts that task back in the registry for start up. At least with windows messenger if you tell it not to load at start up it stops loading at start up. *grumbles about resource hogging do nothing apps*I also really dislike avg. I used to use it along with incoluate it and another free av (can't remember the name but it was german). They all had strong points and weaknesses so I used all 3, with only avg running in the background. I got so tired of avg (no auto updates, it never seemed to download all available virus definitions, even on freshly built machines) that I broke down and bought norton system works. btw I hate system works, I want the extra 10 bucks it cost me over the av program alone back. The only part I use is the av, so I have no idea what I was thinking when I shelled out for the entire package. Oh ya I do, I was thinking I'd start using the other stuff too. Man I suck at shopping.

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Wow, I love this thread. My comments in this message will be mostly about Paint Shop Pro:

Scot, was this some sort of 'reverse psychology' to get more users on the forum, by saying PSP is bad? 
Not consciously. I was thinking about programs for which I have a high annoyance reaction that doesn't go away. A bur under my saddle, so to speak. And PSP 7.0 pushed the VU meter high up the scale. I have liked every previous version of PSP before 7.0, and I've been using it since 1993 or 1994. I don't think you can honestly vote on this topic if you haven't at least used 7.0, and probably 8.0. If I had licensed copy of 6.0, I might still be happy with the program. Unfortunately, I don't. In a nutshell, v.7.0 is a travesty. Another poster in this thread made the point better, in fact, than I have.While most people disagree with me, it's not clear to me that the people who disagree with me have tried 7.0. Some skipped to 8.0. Many haven't gotten as far as 7.0. And I guess I'm going to have to pony up $100 for that version (or whatever they charge). I am sensitive to the vast number of people who disagree, though. Anyone who has used 7.0 and likes it (I think there have been one or two so far?), I'd love to hear from you, though.I have a new nomination: Adobe Acrobat. But to tell you the truth, it's not the program I have a problem with (although there are problems there, especially versionality and the way it installs). My big problem is that I HATE .PDF files. They nearly giant bitmaps. Most PDF makers haven't figured out how to make URLs clickable. They're bloatware if the files are long. There's always a sizing issue on your screen. They're annoying to read. They're not internally navigable. Give me a decently coded Web page any day over a .PDF.Whenever someone sends me one, unless I have to use it, I take great pleasure in deleting a PDF unread.Did I mention that I hate .PDF files?Ok, 'nuff said.-- Scot

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Guest genaldar

I know what you mean about pdfs. I lost the manual for my discman and I forgot how to make it play randomly (shared button). So I go to aiwa's website and get the manual. Its 3 friggin' megs and its only 2 pages. Great use of time for us dial up users.btw I hate dial up, I got spoiled at school. I have a list of stuff to download once I get back to school. I should just get dsl back for home, but I'm only here 4 months this summer and mine is the only pc now that my brother moved.I can't believe I forgot to add this again, you think on one of my posts in this thread I would've remembered. I have psp 7 and I agree it isn't as nice as 5 (the version I had before). I don't think it deserves to be in the hall of shame though, but then again I got mine with a steep student discount (it was required for a class).I also don't think windows media player (especially 9) is that bad. It's more bloated than 6.4, but it runs better than 7 did on 2k (I downloaded it before I moved to xp) and better than 8 on xp (tried 8 for a few days before I downloaded it for xp). It seemed less choppy on 2k (got it back when this system was an overclocked celeron 400 running at 450).I wouldn't add winamp 3 either. I tried it and didn't like it, but at least the guys over at winamp are continuing the 2.x line. And they're listening to what users liked in 3 and brought it over to 2.

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Scot:I disagree with you I like PDF files a lot. As efficient as HTML is, you're not going to have average computer user hammer out the tags along with the content. It's too teduious. java script:emoticon(';)') Further HTML shows up differently with various browsers and I'm not a webmaster but a writer! :lol:Principally I prefer PDF is that I'm fed up with Office file format fetish (OFFF) I don't use Office and I loathe to save documents in its file formats. Everytime I have to send or recieve something in Office file formats, I perpetuate MS' predatory monopoly and I contribute to degraded computer skills. I once sent a file in RTF and the person couldn't open it! So I had to reluctantly send it again in DOC. C'mon! Then there's the prepetual hey your document formatting is messed up due to my different printer metrics but you need to send another copy to me hassles. Or Hey MS changed the Office format yet again! :P To get back to the hall of shame: REDMON- definitely one of the most computer unfriendly programs ever devised. Creating PDF files with free software shouldn't be an epic in proving your inner geekness. I just want to produce PDF documents from any Windows program ;) :P xavier

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My nominee for least-compatible, most likely not to work, and most likely to screw up other applications or even totally trash a system is - Adaptec Easy CDCreator - at least through v5.x, at which point I gave up. I know from talking with friends and reading lots of forum traffic that I am not alone.

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I am happily using Outlook 2000 for a number of years and haven't had any major problems with it. I think it should be taken off the list.RealOne Player is one that should be high on the list.Forte Agent Newsreader is a very good program but is a memory hog and, at least for me, runs inadequately on XP.Tom

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My Nomination for the Hall of Shame....Norton AntiVirus (any version ever made)While I like Norton Utilities, The antivirus program is a shameful piece of junk. It goofs the shut down procedure in WinXP and on Win2000 Server, it installs every single time the computer boots. That's sloppy, to say the least.--Mike Risner.

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I agree with Scot on the fact that v7 is so bad. I myself went back to v6 after using v7 for a bit, but now i think i'll upgrade to v8 (i'm still in trial mode). i already got hooked on the One Step Auto Fix feature in v8. very slick, seems to do a nice job of tweaking most photos to their optimum.i also agree with Norton Anti-virus. The Symantec corporate version is nice and slim, but Norton AV 2003 is the biggest load of bloatware, and they try their best to install that ridiculus Norton Recyle Bin. why do i need 2 levels of delete protection? i can barely stand the recycling bin! :) and also, Easy CD Creator... great nomination, mrainey! so many many ruined CDs due to the pathetic software. its amazing how much Roxio fell off the face of the earth; they used to ship with every single CD writer, and now it's virtually all Nero Burn. Roxio got beaten and their monopoly got destroyed by a unknown german software company. (gives SuSE some hope then, eh? :) ) Last I heard, Roxio bought out napster.com website, and their are going to relaunch a pay version of napster with help of the big record companies. maybe if they concentrated on making CD writing software instead of silly sure-to-fail venture. :)

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Ditto on Roxio! I'll stick with my Nero!Although I wouldn't put PDF Files on the Hall of Shame list exactly, I would say this....PDF files are much nicer for creators (and they are really nice for creators) than for receivers, particularly on dialup.Creators have total control of how the file will be viewed right down to fonts and image locations and they know they will print as created regardless of the printer used.Having said that, PDF files are images and many PDF files are huge and like others have mentioned for such a small amount of actual information!They are also not screenreader friendly for the blind or sight impaired because they are in fact images which screenreaders can not read. Blind computer users are already paying $600-$1000 for basically the corner market on screenreader software. It is a travesty. Having to buy the full Adobe Acrobat or another program to convert PDF files just so they can convert the image to text so a screenreader can read it is way too much to ask.Also for any old user, the plugin for Adobe's Reader always tries to open them in the webpage if you just click on a link. If I see in the status bar that a link is going directly to a .pdf file, I will right click and save target as if I really want to read it otherwise I skip it.Don't get me wrong, I like PDF files ok, I even like to create them. But they can be very annoying and html files are much easier on the bandwidth, particularly on dialup and blind and/or sight impaired folks can actually read html pages for the most part. Heck I can even get M$ Peedy to read me webpages!Nuf said :)

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Scot, I forgot all about Adobe and PDF! I had the "full suite" on my machine, and it caused more trouble than your average virus. Today, I have the reader, because I have to!I also do not like PDF files. I see some valid uses for them, but they are so completely overused as to become a major nuisance.Case in point; If you want to view (or download) just about anything from the State of Wisconsin website, you will need the reader. If I am asking for a form, I can understand, but everything? I have EasyCDCreator in my machine, and I consider it virtually worthless. It's reliability is totally unacceptable. It is a shame.

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My nominee for least-compatible, most likely not to work, and most likely to screw up other applications or even totally trash a system is - Adaptec Easy CDCreator - at least through v5.x, at which point I gave up.  I know from talking with friends and reading lots of forum traffic that I am not alone.
Hmmm....I don't use it all that often, but I have Adeptec Easy CDCreator 4 on my Windows 98se computer--it came with it--and I've not had any problems using it (knock on wood B) ). Perhaps if I used it more I'd encounter problems, but I've been happy with it in copying about 20 CDs.Cybernut

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Jbred:I can understand your point. However, many of us are fed up with perpetually changing Office file formats. we're fed up with document formatting that get messed up due to printer metrics and who like cross platform compatibility.I myself don't use Office and I avoid its file formats as much as possible. HTML is fine but with the amout of proprietary tags that Netscape and MS have added in the past has broken the standard. Web site creaters are particularly loathsome when they just code for Internet Explorer. Lillbambi:Yeay I hate it too when I click on a link and Acrobat loads. It's disrespectful on the part of the web site creators; at least ask me so I can choose.xavier

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Forte Agent Newsreader is a very good program but is a memory hog and, at least for me, runs inadequately on XP.
Funny, I remember running Agent 1.X on a 486SX2-50@66 with 20MB of RAM. You have to understand that this system took 3-5 minutes to load Eudora 4 or Netscape 4 and could not even play mp3's, yet it ran Agent pefectly. Since Agent is still on 1.X, I suspect peformance would not change drastically. Besides Agent, I bet almost none of today's winsock applications would even load on the old computer.

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To get back to the hall of shame: REDMON- definitely one of the most computer unfriendly programs ever devised. Creating PDF files with free software shouldn't be an epic in proving your inner geekness. I just want to produce PDF documents from any Windows program :D  :P xavier
Hi, basx- I'm intrigued by your comment about Redmon. From what little I know about it, this freeware is a 'redirector'. I know little else about it because, although I use it regularly, that use is only indirect, under the direction of FreePDF. I have written about FreePDF a couple of times in this forum, including, just recently, here.Are you talking about experiences you had trying to use the program directly? If you were using it indirectly under FreePDF, you would probably not have formed any opinion about it (?) It works just about invisibly for me, along with Alladin Ghostscript. The trio works just flawlessly for me after an admittedly geeky setup ordeal, but it was just not that difficult to set up FreePDF. Once that is done, the whole thing becomes a near-invisible, friendly pseudo-printer that cranks out pdf's of anything you can show in a windows utility that has access to the Print command. What's not to like? You mean you were trying to actually drive Redmon yourself? :P

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Forte Agent Newsreader is a very good program but is a memory hog and, at least for me, runs inadequately on XP.
Funny, I remember running Agent 1.X on a 486SX2-50@66 with 20MB of RAM. You have to understand that this system took 3-5 minutes to load Eudora 4 or Netscape 4 and could not even play mp3's, yet it ran Agent pefectly. Since Agent is still on 1.X, I suspect peformance would not change drastically. Besides Agent, I bet almost none of today's winsock applications would even load on the old computer.
I have used FreeAgent on Win95 (486-66, 20M RAM) and Win98 platforms. Never had much trouble at all with it. I like it a lot. An exemplary piece of freeware, as I see it. As to memory hogging, I just now tried firing it up and shutting back down a few times. It seems to consume about 5 percent of resources, and I have never noted any tendency for it to leak memory. I have been using an older copy, however- mine says 1.21/32. Maybe there are later versions that fail to please.It takes a few seconds to open, even on my 1.6GHz P4 machine, but not so long that I have any real complaints. As I remember, it opened reasonanbly fast on my 486, which also took a good long time to load Netscape 4.5. :D

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My nominee for least-compatible, most likely not to work, and most likely to screw up other applications or even totally trash a system is - Adaptec Easy CDCreator - at least through v5.x, at which point I gave up.  I know from talking with friends and reading lots of forum traffic that I am not alone.
Hmmm....I don't use it all that often, but I have Adeptec Easy CDCreator 4 on my Windows 98se computer--it came with it--and I've not had any problems using it (knock on wood :D ). Perhaps if I used it more I'd encounter problems, but I've been happy with it in copying about 20 CDs.Cybernut
I have an older version Adaptec CD Creator 3.5. It has worked 'OK' on P2 and P4 Win98SE machines. It came bundled with my Iomega ZipCD 650 external USB CD drive. It rarely produced coasters, perhaps once or twice out of many uses. I have no idea if it is 'shameware' or not. (Hey, Scot- I just coined a new term. Use it as you see fit). You guys decide. Obviously, Nero in many different versions is always better/faster, and I now use Nero almost 100 Percent.Hmmm, "Scot's Gallery of Shameware". That has a kind of jazzy, downbeat sort of ring to it. "Bad shameware- Bad! Bad!" Where's my rolled up newspaper? :P

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I have used FreeAgent on Win95 (486-66, 20M RAM) and Win98 platforms. Never had much trouble at all with it. I like it a lot. An exemplary piece of freeware, as I see it.
I've been trying out Agent, but even Agent can't handle secure news servers by itself. You've got to install another program called Stunnel, which runs in an DOS screen, and serves as a kind of proxy server. A royal PIA. Stunnel comes with next to no instructions that a non-geek can understand. I've found some minimal instructions on the Web, and they enabled me to get Agent up and running, but the idea of having to run a second program just to access secure news servers seems a bit strange. I wish that, at least in the commercial version, Agent would built in support for SSL. I mean, browsers do, so why not Agent? I like the UI a lot better in Agent than in Netscape, so I may stay with it, but the Stunnel stuff makes me uneasy. Anyone know a really good newsreader that has SSL built in?Cybernut

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I have an older version Adaptec CD Creator 3.5. It has worked 'OK' on P2 and P4 Win98SE machines. It came bundled with my Iomega ZipCD 650 external USB CD drive. It rarely produced coasters, perhaps once or twice out of many uses. I have no idea if it is 'shameware' or not.
nice term: shameware ;) as for EZ Coaster Creator, there was an 'issue' in all versions, even v5 for XP. for some reasons, 80 minute CDs can only be burned at half speed of your burner as opposed to 74 minute CDs. EZ Coaster made so many 80minute coasters until i slowed down the burning speed manually to at least less than half. first time i used neroburn, (v4 i believe), it automatically slows down your speed so chance of making a coaster are almost nil. also, while i was busy making audio CDs using Nero's on-the-fly MP3 converting, everyone who had EZ Creator back then was busing converting all MP3s to monstreous .WAV files first before being able to record them. and also, EZ creator's CD copying skills when it came to copy-protected games was pathetic and was successful only about 20% of time. nero burn always did very good copies, with 90% success (some of the trickier copy-protections out there need Clone CD or BurnWrite, i noticed.)mind you i'm comparing mostly pre v5 versions of EZ Coaster Creator, as their v5 XP version was a horrendous disaster that screwed up many XP installations in the beginning. i think that was the straw that broke Roxio's back. plus the fact it loads over 60mb of bloat just to burn CDs!!! Nero's an anerexic beauty when their sizes are compared.side note: does anyone actually use ruined CDs as coaster? just a thought. B)

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side note:  does anyone actually use ruined CDs as coaster?  just a thought.  B)
Actually, I do! ;) Although I always "nuke" them in the Microwave for about 3 seconds first... makes a pretty pattern :DThen glue them onto a thin layer of corkboard (keeping the label side down)... Make decent coasters I guess... still prefer the stone ones though...

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Count me among the number who registered just to ask that PSP be removed from the Hall of Shame list.I started with PSP5. I'll admit, it was a not-quite-legal copy a then-boyfriend installed on my computer. But I liked it so much that when I purchased a new computer, I purchased PSP7 and am still using it. I preferred the older UI, but I can deal with 7. I'm the type of user who putzes around in a program until I figure out how something works, or learns it only when I need it. So far, the only thing that PSP hasn't been able to do that Photoshop handles easily was change a RGB color to a CMYK and then adjust the color balance of that CMYK for printing purposes (the direct association color wasn't an exact color match), but for that I'll pay for time on a Kinko's computer to do the adjustments.Would I like the full Adobe Photoshop? Sure! Am I willing to pay that much for it? Not on your life! I don't have need for that much functionality, especially at 8 times the cost.Now that Elements is released, I might take a look at it. I'd love to talk with people who have used both PSP and Elements and compare those two programs. To compare PSP to Photoshop isn't apples to apples. To put PSP in a Hall of Shame because it doesn't live up to Photoshop? Unfair. Compare PSP to Elements then get back to me on whether either belong in a Hall of Shame.Amber

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I can't remember the name right now, but Sony puts out CD recording software with their burners (I have a 48x24x48 Sony burner), and all it did was reboot both of my main machines. I think its like B's Recorder or some "we want to sound hip, so let's use "B" and try to make people think we had something to do with Half Baked, yo!"I haven't ever had a prob with Outlook being a "memory hog" as one person put it.. but I have a GB of RAM and a partition just for my swap file ;)Corel 11 crashed continuously for about a month... then I switched video cards and it stopped, but I know a lot of people that have had probs with it (like ChrisP). Oh, and anything that is even remotely associate with RealNetworks... even "Real Cheese" comes close.MSI KT3 Ultra ARUAthlon XP2000+ Tbred @ 1.88 Ghz1 GB Crucial PC2700 DDRVolcano 9FIC Radeon 9700 (w/modded BIOS 361/309)2 x 40 GB ATA133 HDs1 x 80 GB ATA133 HDSony 48x24x48 BurnerToshiba DVD-ROMEnermax 550 Watt PSUTurtle Beach Santa CruzViewSonic P95f+Logitech Z340'sKensington MIB Optical ProXP/Mandrake 9.1/Longhorn Milestone 5

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We've used ruined (not too many actually with Nero) CDRs as coasters. We also use the AOL, Compuserve, etc. CDs the same way.We usually just crazy glue a couple of them together to weight them down a bit and voila.

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.pdf - yeth, large, larger and largest. using pdf creator from word (especially if doc has pix) does not necc. produce the same document. and printing a .pdf - yeah, it can be tweaked to print .pdf page for printed page, but sometimes the IT guy (um, that would be me...) has to go to the user's desk an tweak the fire out of printer settings.psp v7 - um, methinks i have that version and it does ok - but - i'll have to go to one of my machines and see...AOL otherwise known as AO-**** - v4 was stable (for AOL, that is) but does not work with ie v5 and up (methinks). v5 crashed 50% of the PC's out there - so much so that there was a class action lawsuit. v6 was not any better. v7 stabilized somewhat (kinda like an airplane missing a piece of its wing could be said to stabilize...) v8 sucketh and is sloweth.virus-like programs - norton utilities began vigorously inhaling (think suction) somewhere around windows 95 or 98 (i loved norton's stuff before then, the hex editor, recovery utils, etc.) the built-in windows utilities are close but no cigar - they lack a full feature set or only partially do the job - defrag sorta does, cd burner only does so much, etc. any program written in visual anything is bloatware. programmers should write only in c or machine code. and speaking of bloatware, windows needs to be vastly pared down, with MILLIONS of lines of UNUSED code that has NEVER been edited out. (and that info from microsoft.)editor: ok, ok, enough already... B) [temmu goes back to polishing his land speeder]

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We've used ruined (not too many actually with Nero) CDRs as coasters. We also use the AOL, Compuserve, etc. CDs the same way.We usually just crazy glue a couple of them together to weight them down a bit and voila.
If used as coasters, won't they let condensate drip through the spindle holes and stain your tabletop anyway? Maybe you could glue together a sandwich with plastic sheet in the middle. I can picture them being used as 'clay pigeons' to be blown apart in midair by shotgun blasts. B) I saw an article that suggested they could be sewn onto survival vests, shiny side out, to make a good rescue signal visible from an aircraft. If I knew someone who had a 'launcher' that could fire off magazines of 100 of more AOL CDs rapid fire, I would not want to get on their 'bad side'. B) Reminds me of the 'Odd Job' character in the 007 movie. B)

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Heh, I think the consensus seems to be that the Software Hall of Shame should simply start withimport com.Microsoft.*;Oops, giving away my identity again.

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ms.they're huge.they're what big (and small) business uses.i don't care for the fact that they spend more time on glitz than speed / smooth but at least they finally got stable.no one else has the money to devote to writing and testing code at their level.i just wish they'd shrink itand test their patches / service packs before foisting them on us.

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Microsoft WordMicrosoft PublisherGatorWindows MEReal PlayerAlexaMicrosoft Word is right there at #1 because it is so popular, but such a lousy program. I am currently using it at work for technical documents, and it is really infuriating because.1. It is basically impossible to create a single template stylesheet and use it for all the documents. Somehow, Microsoft has made gradual changes over the years to the template feature to make it basically impossible to create a single template, save a style change in that template and have it reliably update all of the attached documents.2. Autonumbering. Autonumbering is still the worst-implemented feature in Word. Sometimes, no matter what you do with numbered lists, it refuses to restart numbering at 1, or it will restart the numbering even when you don't want it to do it. Sometimes, you have to screw up EVERY numbered item in the whole document in order to fix the problem.3. Related to number 2, but a separate problem in its own right is the problems of paragraph indents being stored in TWO places for autonumbered items. One is in the paragraph attributes for the tag, and the other is (quite unnecessarily) stored in the autonumbering setup.4. Built-in screwed up style tags you can't delete. Why is this useful?5. No keep with previous setting for paragraphs.6. A forced page break causes the next item (usually a heading, of course) to have space above that is larger than when it appears normally.7. Lack of automatic on-the-fly hyphenation.8. Lack of ability to write a key-trapped macro that finds something, extends the selection to the next thing you find, and performs actions with the resulting selected text. WordPerfect has always had this ability. A related issue is the difficulty of search for beginning and ending formatting codes just like Word Perfect.9. Can we be allowed to set a tab dot leader density, since having every position dotted looks tacky?10. Why are all of the default settings for numbered lists LEFT justified rather than right-justified.I could go on and on and on in an endless pattern of silly decisions that constantly clog my time and force compromises in the layout. Mostly, I have not complained about the interface; the interface for Word finally works very well, but some of the underlying metaphors have been unchanged since the very first version and are still just as wrong now as they ever were.

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Very nice mikeh ... I am reading some of it now ... bookmarked :P

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mikeh: nice. wish you'd post the defensive computer course outline/notes!

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