securitybreach Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 This has been resolved but made a big mess and then his attitude was icing on the cake and made it impossible for Linus not to step in. He even went so far as to suspend the developer of systemd from making any kernel changes at one point. Well you also have to remember how many people and organizations Linus has had a spat with before and now everything is resolved. Not saying that he didn't have a good reason but he does tend to be a bit abrasive sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 It may be fixed now, but you have to admit, that when a developer initially saw nothing wrong and got arrogant about anyone questioning him when he stops normal processing of debugging entirely ... that is not Linus just being abrasive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I will stay w/Debian Wheezy as on as it is supported, then re-evaluate. You've got some time, then. I moved on to the last two releases a few months after the "freeze" and then rolled right into Stable. I've been planning to do the same with Jessie but I'm thinking that I might keep my primary computer on Wheezy for a bit longer this time around. I dropped Fedora in favor of Debian because of systemd. I, too, used to run Fedora, but my reasons for dropping it had nothing to do with systemd. I wasn't all that happy with the short support period. Also, I've had much less trouble with Arch than I had with Fedora. Arch actually seems much more "stable" to me. Fedora was easier to install, though. I did enjoy my time with Fedora, anyway. I don't even know when Fedora switched over to systemd, but I guess it was well before I came on board (with F14). As someone who enjoys using various distros and is interested in various approaches, it's quite interesting to see the way people are taking sides for or against systemd.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Agreed but like any developer, especially of a big project, they tend to be arrogant. I know Linus had a reason but it was handled a bit childish on both ends, especially the systemd developer. "Your code is broken." "No its not" "Yes it is" "Well I am not fixing it, change your code" "Fine then, I will kick you out of my club until you change it" The kernel mailing lists can be a bit wild and funny sometimes As someone who enjoys using various distros and is interested in various approaches, it's quite interesting to see the way people are taking sides for or against systemd.... I have felt the same way the whole time this has been discussed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I have felt the same way the whole time this has been discussed. As you've mentioned before, it seems kinda along the same lines as with other Linux issues in the past. Oh, the drama! Pass the popcorn! I came over to Linux and there were people who simply hated GNOME -- or KDE. I found that I was okay using either one, in the end. And so it has gone for me with other contentious Linux issues. Whatever, I guess Linux will be okay for quite some time yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Interview: Torvalds says he has no strong opinions on systemd I don't personally mind systemd, and in fact my main desktop and laptop both run it. If I had been concerned about systemd before, Torvalds' comments there would certainly have settled the issue for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Interview: Torvalds says he has no strong opinions on systemd If I had been concerned about systemd before, Torvalds' comments there would certainly have settled the issue for me. There you go! If Linus doesn't have an issue with it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Linus said: "Now, I don't get along with some of the developers and think they are a bit too cavalier about bugs and compatibility, but I'm also very much not in the camp of people who hate the very thought of systemd."........... " I think many of the "original ideals" of UNIX are these days more of a mindset issue than necessarily reflecting reality of the situation. There's still value in understanding the traditional UNIX "do one thing and do it well" model where many workflows can be done as a pipeline of simple tools each adding their own value, but let's face it, it's not how complex systems really work, and it's not how major applications have been working or been designed for a long time. It's a useful simplification, and it's still true at *some* level, but I think it's also clear that it doesn't really describe most of reality. It might describe some particular case, though, and I do think it's a useful teaching tool. People obviously still do those traditional pipelines of processes and file descriptors that UNIX is perhaps associated with, but there's a *lot* of cases where you have big complex unified systems. And systemd is in no way the piece that breaks with old UNIX legacy. Graphical applications seldom worked that way (there are certainly _echoes_ of it in things like "LyX", but I think it's the exception rather than the rule), and then there's obviously the traditional counter-example of GNU emacs, where it really was not about the "simple UNIX model", but a whole new big infrastructure thing. Like systemd. Now, I'm still old-fashioned enough that I like my log-files in text, not binary, so I think sometimes systemd hasn't necessarily had the best of taste, but hey, details".... Have you seen similar situations before - right from 1991 when you first put Linux up for download - where the introduction of a new way of doing things caused such a lot of bitterness and extreme reactions? Oh, there's been bitter fights before. Just think about the emacs vs vi wars. Or, closer to systemd, the whole "SysV init" vs "BSD init" differences certainly ended up being things that people had "heated discussions" about. Or think about the desktop comparisons. I'm not really sure how different the systemd brawls are from those. It's technical, but admittedly the systemd developers have also been really good at alienating people on a purely personal level too. Not that that is anything particularly new under the sun _either_: the (very) bitter wars between the GPL and the BSD license camps during late-80s and early-90s were almost certainly more about the persons involved and how they pissed off people than necessarily deeply about other differences (which existed, obviously, but still). What would you say if someone argued that systemd has created a single point of failure which makes a system unbootable if it fails? It centralises a lot of services in itself and if one fails, then the system is pretty much useless. I think people are digging for excuses. I mean, if that is a reason to not use a piece of software, then you shouldn't use the kernel either. Of course, the kernel is special, and kernel engineers are just better people. Everybody knows that. So maybe comparing other more mundane projects to something as lofty as the kernel is unfair. But look at plodding projects like glibc etc - when they screw up, everybody gets hurt too. So I dunno.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Linus likes fried squid over rice w/ mushroom gravy, too. That don't mean I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Linus likes fried squid over rice w/ mushroom gravy, too. That don't mean I do. Yeah I am not much on mushroom gravy either but it's hard to argue with the father of Linux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Folks who don't like systemd, or have a strong negative opinion about it, I don't think there's anything anyone can say that'll change their minds. Folks who are worried about systemd, though, might want to take a look at Torvalds' comments before they decide to boycott any distro that uses it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Folks who don't like systemd, or have a strong negative opinion about it, I don't think there's anything anyone can say that'll change their minds. Folks who are worried about systemd, though, might want to take a look at Torvalds' comments before they decide to boycott any distro that uses it. I agree but of course I have been using it for over 2 years and consider Linus Torvalds to be a hero of mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 When the entire world goes to systemd, then I'll go there too; just like I finally did with touch tone phones and color TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 When the entire world goes to systemd, then I'll go there too; just like I finally did with touch tone phones and color TV. By the way, I liked how you put things here: Actually, I'm not worried about systemd at all. I don't think P. Volkerding will be instituting it any time soon in Slackware. I had no issues with it in Arch. I'm just a traditionalist (read as staid old fart) and I don't like new-fangled stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 For Linus, I will likely give it a shot (like bad tasting medicine) but it doesn't mean it will go down well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 For Linus, I will likely give it a shot (like bad tasting medicine) but it doesn't mean it will go down well. You'll handle it fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Linus likes fried squid over rice w/ mushroom gravy, too. That don't mean I do. Yum! You don't like squid? You probably don't like octopus either. Heh! Hold the gravy, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 Like I used to tell my father, "Squid is bait, not food." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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