V.T. Eric Layton Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 So, I was wondering... If this is systemd we're talking about here, I'd like to know what happened to systema, b, and c? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 I actually know quite a few people who really like Pulse but most of these people are audiophiles who have multiple inputs and outputs. I personally like alsa over pulseaudio but some do like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Well I've said before that I really haven't had any major issue with Pulse Audio - but all I want to do is use a simple sound card to drive a set of 2.1 speakers through that little green jack. Whatever distro I've installed has done that well. With Arch I used ALSA but I wouldn't expect any problems there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Same here Ray. I just want my 2 speakers and subwoofer to work through the green audio out jack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 (edited) Yep, as I say, I have no need for 5:1 etc. on speakers on my Debian computer. The most it has is dual speakers w/bass box. As I noted, I like the additional features, but it's not something I need given the issues it presents with sound quality, weirdness, etc. I am not complaining about the developer for PulseAudio specifically. I am complaining about PulseAudio. It does however, worry me that although the developer has been a great Linux developer over time, he is on both PulseAudio team and Systemd team...two that I am not all that excited about. Edited August 29, 2014 by LilBambi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 I have a Logitech 5.1 system. It JAMS! I also have the necessary discrete outputs on my mobo's audio section to accommodate it. I use ALSA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 Discussion of systemd in the Debian community looks familiar... http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116860 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 Too funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Have you folks seen this? http://boycottsystemd.org/ I'll tell ya something, as things stand right now, I see absolutely no chance that I will even consider dropping either Debian or Arch because of systemd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Have you folks seen this? http://boycottsystemd.org/ I'll tell ya something, as things stand right now, I see absolutely no chance that I will even consider dropping either Debian or Arch because of systemd. from that page:systemd clusters itself into PID 1 I thought 'that can not be correct'. but it is. uh oh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 systemd clusters itself into PID 1 Whatever that means. Whoosh! Way over my head! LOL! The way I see things, from the viewpoint of a simple-minded Linux user, a layman: The Debian and Arch devs are A LOT smarter than me, and understand all this stuff A LOT better than I ever will. And they've decided to go with systemd. Maybe they'll stay with it. Maybe they'll improve it. Maybe they'll go back to sysvinit. Maybe they'll come up with what they consider to be a better init system. Either way, my computer boots up, I'm happy. The world will keep turning, life will go on, and I'll still be using Linux. And Linux folks will still be getting all upset and arguing and ranting about something. Pretty much business as usual, seems to me. Another beautiful sunrise over the mountains here in Albuquerque, NM this morning... Tennis, anyone? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 from that page: I thought 'that can not be correct'. but it is. uh oh. That is incorrect: comhack@Cerberus ~ % ps -aux | grep /usr/lib/systemd root 149 0.0 0.0 28260 6400 ? Ss Sep02 0:00 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-journald root 169 0.0 0.0 32592 3316 ? Ss Sep02 0:00 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-udevd root 461 0.0 0.0 15320 2536 ? Ss Sep02 0:00 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-logind comhack 507 0.0 0.0 26868 3716 ? Ss Sep02 0:00 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd --user[size=4] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Whatever that means. Whoosh! Way over my head! LOL! The way I see things, from the viewpoint of a simple-minded Linux user, a layman: The Debian and Arch devs are A LOT smarter than me, and understand all this stuff A LOT better than I ever will. And they've decided to go with systemd. Maybe they'll stay with it. Maybe they'll improve it. Maybe they'll go back to sysvinit. Maybe they'll come up with what they consider to be a better init system. Either way, my computer boots up, I'm happy. The world will keep turning, life will go on, and I'll still be using Linux. And Linux folks will still be getting all upset and arguing and ranting about something. Pretty much business as usual, seems to me. Another beautiful sunrise over the mountains here in Albuquerque, NM this morning... Tennis, anyone? that is the point of concern with operating as a PID 1 , which is basically equivalent to RING0 in the msWin world.You greatly increase the need for rebooting and you increase instability. This is not a discussion that is 'who cares?'. You should care, all Linux users should care. Is your Linux going to stay the course that has been laid down for 20 years of doing one thing well and then joining together or go into the path of complicated binaries. systemd is a hot point since it is replacing many operations into one binary (even its log files are binary) and will require many other changes in basic utilities and programs in order to operate within that OS. Do we really want forking of distros into systemd and non-systemd? It is messy enough I think, but that is why people are not just sitting by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 That is incorrect: comhack@Cerberus ~ % ps -aux | grep /usr/lib/systemd root 149 0.0 0.0 28260 6400 ? Ss Sep02 0:00 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-journald root 169 0.0 0.0 32592 3316 ? Ss Sep02 0:00 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-udevd root 461 0.0 0.0 15320 2536 ? Ss Sep02 0:00 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd-logind comhack 507 0.0 0.0 26868 3716 ? Ss Sep02 0:00 /usr/lib/systemd/systemd --user[size=4] no idea what you are trying to prove , but you are quite wrong. really , really wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 no idea what you are trying to prove , but you are quite wrong. really , really wrong. There are 4 PIDs of systemd as shown above so your information was incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Since there is a lot of fud surrounding systemd, here are the facts: The Biggest Myths Since we first proposed systemd for inclusion in the distributions it has been frequently discussed in many forums, mailing lists and conferences. In these discussions one can often hear certain myths about systemd, that are repeated over and over again, but certainly don't gain any truth by constant repetition. Let's take the time to debunk a few of them: Myth: systemd is monolithic. If you build systemd with all configuration options enabled you will build 69 individual binaries. These binaries all serve different tasks, and are neatly separated for a number of reasons. For example, we designed systemd with security in mind, hence most daemons run at minimal privileges (using kernel capabilities, for example) and are responsible for very specific tasks only, to minimize their security surface and impact. Also, systemd parallelizes the boot more than any prior solution. This parallization happens by running more processes in parallel. Thus it is essential that systemd is nicely split up into many binaries and thus processes. In fact, many of these binaries[1] are separated out so nicely, that they are very useful outside of systemd, too. A package involving 69 individual binaries can hardly be called monolithic. What is different from prior solutions however, is that we ship more components in a single tarball, and maintain them upstream in a single repository with a unified release cycle. Myth: systemd is about speed. Yes, systemd is fast (A pretty complete userspace boot-up in ~900ms, anyone?), but that's primarily just a side-effect of doing things right. In fact, we never really sat down and optimized the last tiny bit of performance out of systemd. Instead, we actually frequently knowingly picked the slightly slower code paths in order to keep the code more readable. This doesn't mean being fast was irrelevant for us, but reducing systemd to its speed is certainly quite a misconception, since that is certainly not anywhere near the top of our list of goals. Myth: systemd's fast boot-up is irrelevant for servers. That is just completely not true. Many administrators actually are keen on reduced downtimes during maintenance windows. In High Availability setups it's kinda nice if the failed machine comes back up really fast. In cloud setups with a large number of VMs or containers the price of slow boots multiplies with the number of instances. Spending minutes of CPU and IO on really slow boots of hundreds of VMs or containers reduces your system's density drastically, heck, it even costs you more energy. Slow boots can be quite financially expensive. Then, fast booting of containers allows you to implement a logic such as socket activated containers, allowing you to drastically increase the density of your cloud system. Of course, in many server setups boot-up is indeed irrelevant, but systemd is supposed to cover the whole range. And yes, I am aware that often it is the server firmware that costs the most time at boot-up, and the OS anyways fast compared to that, but well, systemd is still supposed to cover the whole range (see above...), and no, not all servers have such bad firmware, and certainly not VMs and containers, which are servers of a kind, too.[2] Myth: systemd is incompatible with shell scripts. This is entirely bogus. We just don't use them for the boot process, because we believe they aren't the best tool for that specific purpose, but that doesn't mean systemd was incompatible with them. You can easily run shell scripts as systemd services, heck, you can run scripts written in any language as systemd services, systemd doesn't care the slightest bit what's inside your executable. Moreover, we heavily use shell scripts for our own purposes, for installing, building, testing systemd. And you can stick your scripts in the early boot process, use them for normal services, you can run them at latest shutdown, there are practically no limits............. http://0pointer.de/b...gest-myths.html Bold is my emphasis I understand that the devs are a bit arrogant and have gotten into it with Linus in the past but the FUD being spread has no merits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 This is not a discussion that is 'who cares?'. You should care, all Linux users should care. I'd say that I should care about the things that I think I should care about. I'm fine with letting other folks hash this out. Believe me, I've got lots of more important things on my plate. So much stuff floating around out there about this topic on the internet; I don't understand most of it, don't know who's right and who's wrong, don't know what peoples' agendas are. Is the Linux world on the verge of coming crashing down? I don't think so. I'll just kick back, watch as everyone else gets all fired up, wait and see how things play out. People will try to do what they think is best, most of the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 That and we have seen this played out more than once in the Linux communities... Xorg versus XF86, kde 3 versus 4, gnome 2 versus 3, Gnu/Linux naming scheme, symlinking /lib to /usr/lib, proprietary applications included in repos, etc. Linux developers always fight over change and everyone has their opinions but I hate to see blatant falsehoods being spread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 Ah... my sheeply friends. You are all lovers of the Dixie cups full of the grape flavored drink. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 note: these are not monolithic in their like/dislike of systemd. but at least they don't pretend that systemd is a solution for all or that it solves the problems it is addressing and they don't say that systemd is evil . http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.sysutils.systemd.devel/17440 http://lwn.net/Articles/523405/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729803 http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/dev/258273#258273 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 I read that systemd cures Psoriasis, hemorrhoids, and dandruff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 http://www.tecmint.com/systemd-replaces-init-in-linux/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 http://www.tecmint.c...-init-in-linux/ A bit biased, I think. That article seems to be written by someone very enamored with Systemd. I think this fellow's comment sums it up for me... Richard Zimmerman September 5, 2014 at 6:10 pm WHY do we need systemd? Init works just fine…. I’ve not read one argument yet that states why I ahould be forced to use systemd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I am not sure systemd in particular would be the answer, but there are no other contenders... The only thing that really is important in why MAYBE it would even slightly make sense is speed ... parallel processing. Init does boot processes chained; load one before moving to the next. Systemd is parallel so boot time can be much faster. That I do like. Maybe not from systemd, but I do like the parallel processing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 (edited) I haven't seen any software innovation so far that gives an improvement in boot time that comes close to replacing a regular hard drive with an SSD. For that matter I haven't seen anything that improves application launch time like an SSD. Even a relative pig like Libre Office explodes onto the monitor. Again I don't think I'll worry about systemd for a while. I can use Linux Mint LTS for a few years and let the gurus hash it out. If it turns out to be a dog's breakfast there will always be BSD or Slack or somebody will fork a distro with Init as the boot process. Even with systemd I doubt that Linux will ever be screwed up as badly as Vista or Windows 8. Don't worry, be happy. Edited September 7, 2014 by raymac46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Saw an interesting article this morning (actually a Q&A) on Distrowatch, regarding Distro choices that REFUSE to implement Systemd, which seems applicable to this thread: http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20140908#qa A couple quick observations/comments on this brief summary. Pros of Systemd: if no one notices anything different, at boot time or later, what's the big deal? Cons of Systemd: if Systemd is the result of "improving" init systems (that system administrators and developers agree could be improved upon), but no one notices anything different, why bother with Systemd? My personal outlook? Seems to be another controversy in the Linux world, conjured up by 2 diametrically opposing philosophical camps. It's the Linux way. Everyone touts "choice" and "user freedom" in Linux, but only as long as it coincides with their philosophical outlook. The moment they clash, there is a philosophical jihad to eliminate the offending option; the moment that "choice" and "user freedom" doesn't coincide with a developer/administrator/distro philosophy, it must be eliminated. Isn't that the Microsoft and Apple way? And isn't Linux better than that? And if you accept the premise of those 2 statements, isn't the corollary that Linux is being sabotaged by the temper tantrums of those who disagree with the philosophies being implemented? This is directed to those folks (and not anyone here): I LOVE Linux and the choices that it affords me, but I am SICK of others who see "choice" and "user freedom" as meaning THEIR CHOICE and THEIR FREEDOM. As a fully vested Linux user, I fully support your right to make the best decisions regarding software you want to run. You are free to make choices on YOUR machine...leave mine alone! Conversely, I challenge you: if your choices are obviously superior, please lay out the logic for us laymen, so we can see your wisdom. And if my tiny dinosaur brain eventually concludes that your choices were the correct ones, please allow me the opportunity to choose your choices without a condescending tone and a jubilant victory dance. "Win" with some class. If the rest of us just aren't as smart as you visionaries, it stands to reason that it will take us longer to derive the correct answer. I would expect such a smart person to know this. Until then: Don't like Ubuntu/Unity/Canonical? Don't use it! There are many other choices... Don't like Gnome3/KDE/Unity because they're bloated? Don't use 'em! There are many other lightweight choices... Don't like Fedora or Siduction because they're too "bleeding edge" and "unstable"? Perhaps Red Hat or Debian will be more to your liking. Don't like Red Hat because they try to make $$$ from a "free" OS? Don't use it! There are many other options... Don't like Debian because it's "too stable" with "old" versions of software? Spice it up with some cutting edge PPAs! Have a beef with Mageia/Mandriva/Rosa/PCLinuxOS forks? Use the one you prefer, but allow others to do the same... Have a problem with proprietary drivers/blobs of binary? Trisquel is perfect for you. Leave me alone! Have a problem with GRUB/GRUB2/LILO? Use the one you prefer, and I'll do the same... Have a problem with init/Systemd/Upstart? If you really feel that strongly about a process that you can't see and don't notice, perhaps a new distro choice is in order for you? I hear that Gentoo, Slackware & BSDs are an option...at least they are for ME. Then again, maybe I'm just taking the easy way out? Perhaps I should be trying to change the entire Linux ecosystem to my liking? But if I'm to seriously consider that option, I think I'd like to see the OS X system go open source...it's a fine system, despite being hobbled by proprietary licenses, vendor-service lock-ins, and DRM issues. Other than that, it's nearly perfect. Or maybe I should just look at BSD, and tweak it? Decisions, decisions, decisions... But that's just MY opinion. What do I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 (edited) I could have written that article LOL! I feel the same way the person writing the article feels. I too as noted earlier will hang in with Debian Wheezy as long as I can and move on; likely to Slackware or Gentoo, or some form of BSD ... or any other NON systemd system until OR IF I ever feel comfortable with it. Remains to be seen. I love feature changes for the better. This one I am having issues with. Except for the positive change of parallel loading at boot time to speed it it. Edited September 8, 2014 by LilBambi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Yup, I agree. Linux is about choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 8, 2014 Share Posted September 8, 2014 Well, I've been running openSUSE here for a few years now. I ran openSUSE 12.1, then I ran the 12.2 release, and now I'm on 12.3, which I installed back in March 2013. I run KDE in openSUSE, and I also add Openbox to it. I think that openSUSE switched to systemd with the 12.1 release, but... I didn't even know this until recently! Lol. Or, if I knew it, I forgot all about it. It's been a complete non-issue here. (As I've mentioned here before, it hasn't been an issue here with Arch or Sabayon, either.) I'm kinda surprised that it's become such a huge controversy, but perhaps I shouldn't be. Whatever. Nothing against Slackware, Gentoo, or BSD, but... Give up my beloved Debian only because of their upcoming switch to systemd? No way! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 You won't like Gentoo, Fran. If you think Slackware is for masochists, wait till you see Gentoo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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