Cluttermagnet Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Time will tell. Here are some interesting words from Ignorant Guru on this subject --> http://igurublog.wor...gainst-systemd/ Woah!! I like to read the dissent first. This guy is definitely worked up. Systemd is way above my pay grade, but it sounds ominous... Yeah, maybe some major forking in the works... Now I'll go really read the original link in this thread... OMG I'm going to have to learn to compile from source. Yikes! Edited August 25, 2014 by Cluttermagnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) "Linux doomed" I'm thinking. Then I start remembering (partially) that arrogant patent troll dude and how he eventually lost big in the courts. He was saying, back then, "...all your base are ours..." Somebody remind me, it's on the 'tip of my brain'... Anyway, he proved a loser, thanks be for Linux... He asserted he owned the patents on life, the universe, and everything. Unless the zombie army of patent troll lawyers rises from the grave again... http://readwrite.com/2013/06/17/death-by-lawsuit-sco-resurrects-and-insanity-is-restored Edited August 25, 2014 by Cluttermagnet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Wow! Quite a rant indeed, Eric. My initial instincts are that they guy is temporarily deranged- and also dead on right! Ah, what do I know, but I'm not all that trusting, and this just smells terribly of 'worlds three biggest lies'... I would hope that at least some segment of Linux would expell this thing and go their merry ways... Sorry, Josh. But this thing really sounds nasty. And it looks like it is going to take over Linux like a big algal bloom... Ah, what do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 It's just a different way of doing things, David. My complaint is that it's overly complicated compared the method used previously (init). As you say, though, it's all above my pay grade, too. It's just a piece of software, but it's how it's being thrust upon us that bothers me a bit. I'm not a "joiner," so losing choices makes me uncomfortable. We'll just have to sit back and let those folks in the upper strata work this out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) It's just a different way of doing things, David. My complaint is that it's overly complicated compared the method used previously (init). As you say, though, it's all above my pay grade, too. It's just a piece of software, but it's how it's being thrust upon us that bothers me a bit. I'm not a "joiner," so losing choices makes me uncomfortable. We'll just have to sit back and let those folks in the upper strata work this out. (Emphasis mine) As the Emperor of Austria character in the movie "Mozart" said, There it is... Edited August 25, 2014 by Cluttermagnet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 You all forget that most distros have been using systemd for well over two years. Archlinux switched to systemd in Oct 2012. Basically most distros are using systemd already except for Debian (derivatives) and Slackware of which Debian is switching with the next release. When Debian switches, so will Ubuntu, LinuxMint, etc. Redhat was among the first to switch to systemd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 In May 2011, Fedora became the first major Linux distribution to enable systemd by default.[33] As of August 2014, Slackware does not support or use systemd, but Slackware's lead Patrick Volkerding has not ruled out the possibility of switching to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) You all forget that most distros have been using systemd for well over two years. Archlinux switched to systemd in Oct 2012. Basically most distros are using systemd already except for Debian (derivatives) and Slackware of which Debian is switching with the next release. When Debian switches, so will Ubuntu, LinuxMint, etc. Redhat was among the first to switch to systemd. You often forget that I was running systemd on my Arch even before Arch released it in the main repos. Your point about all those distributions going to systemd is EXACTLY the point many of us who don't care for it are trying to make... WE ARE LOSING OUR CHOICES IN LINUX. That is NOT RIGHT! Most of us are here in Linux-land because we HATED the fact that we had no choices elsewhere. Now the big Linux muckity mucks (RedHat, Ubuntu, etc.) are pushing things on us (systemd, wayland, etc.) that we don't want or need. Some can call it progress, I s'pose. Others call it oppression. You, of all people, should be screaming bloody murder, Josh. As long as I've known you, you've been anti-big anything, anti-oppression, anti-establishment. I'm beginning to think that your love for Arch Linux is blinding you to what's going on these days in the Linux World. You need to step back a few moments and center your focus on what I still believe are your main beliefs/tenets with regards to the world. Anywho... Edited August 25, 2014 by V.T. Eric Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Did you choose init? No and neither did I. It is called progression and whatever is best for Linux over all is what matters. Init is very old and needed to be replaced. You still have choice as you can always revert to init. I do not like Firefox but I do not have a problem when a distro preinstalls it. I cannot stand sudo but distros preinstall it as well. I do not use the normal kernel (I use linux-ck kernel) but I do not complain that Arch preinstalls the normal, vanilla kernel. Linux is about choice but how the system boots is more of a universal thing. There is always BSD for those that want the ancient init. Technically, init is a BSD-style, System V process anyway. It neither started with Linux nor was made for Linux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Some things you can't avoid. I hated when HAL was deprecated in favor or Udev. I hated when KDE went to v4.x. It is what it is. I don't have to like it. What was wrong with init? Still works like a champ in Slackware? Worked fine in Arch, too, before they dumped it. X11 is old, but still works great. I just don't like seeing GNU/Linux become a more closed (maintained by only a few gurus) operating system. Everyone thinks there's this huge Linux dev community, but reality is a smaller and smaller group are making the decisions about Linux for all of us. There's $$$ creeping into the equation these days, too. The RH and Ubuntu folks have BIG $ backing them. Their devs are the tip of the arrow when it comes to GNU/Linux development. It just seems like the few are deciding what's best for the many. That isn't the GNU/Linux philosophy at all. Well, as stated above... this is all out of my pay grade and out of my realm and means to influence. Whatever will be will be. Edited August 25, 2014 by V.T. Eric Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Well I do not feel anything is closed until the source is closed. If the source is available; you can add, remove or change anything you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 Well I do not feel anything is closed until the source is closed. If the source is available; you can add, remove or change anything you like. Sure. If you have the knowledge and skill set. If not, you just follow along like the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Whatever will be will be. Indeed. Well, I've been running some systemd distros here, including Arch, Sabayon, and openSUSE. Hasn't been a big deal. I don't know much about systemd, anyway. My computer boots up, I'm happy. I'm fine with whatever the Debian folks decide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Well, I think the real concern is that they want everything piped through systemd. Init handled some things but not all the things that systemd wants control of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryB Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 I still don't know enough about systemd to decide if it is "Good or Bad" I know it is different and changes the workflow..etc...parallel vs sequences..got it. I do understand why...I can even understand why distos are migrating...( hey look faster booting...services can be configured..or not...why write a script when it can be as simple as on/off.or your can still script) got that too. But I aslo know that with few exceptions most of us will not alter either systemd or int. If have a distro, and had to choose and int type, who do i choose it for? General setup for most users? can I proved both? Do I have the resourses to do both? Can I compete if I dont change...even if Im a free (as in Beer) idistro...or do I become a niche. Isn't our Linux Freedoms really based on freedom of choice of what is provided? Having said that...This "Old Dog, New Tricks" stuff really bites...it is hard for me to wrap my head around new stuff as I get older...and sometimes I just plain balk..because I'm afraid it is passing me by and I want keep what I had. Other times I just can't figure it out, and it ticks me off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 To be honest I am here in Linux land because it offers a low cost secure alternative to Windows, and helps to keep old hardware in use and out of a landfill. There is enough choice in desktops, window managers and associated software to keep me happy, I don't like some of the changes I've seen over the years (hello Gnome 3) but other things like improved wifi and video drivers are excellent. Anything that improves the boot process is a good thing. And I think that inevitably Linux will have to come to terms with UEFI - even if we don't like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Do you mean "Secure boot"? UEFI has long been available on Linux and I have used it for about two years already: https://wiki.archlin...mware_Interface https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Secure_Boot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Related: http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/choose-your-side-the-linux-divide-248950?page=0,0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Good article. I liked this: Last week I posted about the schism brewing over systemd and the curiously fast adoption of this massive change to many Linux distributions. If there's one thing that systemd does extremely well, it is to spark heated discussions that devolve into wild, teeth-gnashing rants from both sides. Clearly, systemd is a polarizing subject. If nothing else, that very fact should give one pause. Fundamental changes in the structure of most Linux distributions should not be met with such fervent opposition. It indicates that no matter how reasonable a change may seem, if enough established and learned folks disagree with the change, then perhaps it bears further inspection before going to production. Clearly, that hasn't happened with systemd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Gotta love the name of a related article too: Systemd: Harbinger of the Linux apocalypse Now that Red Hat has released RHEL 7 with systemd in place of the erstwhile SysVinit, it appears that the end of the world is indeed approaching. A schism and war of egos is unfolding within the Linux community right now, and it is drawing blood on both sides. Ultimately, no matter who "wins," Linux looks to lose this one. The idea behind systemd was to replace the aged Init functionality and provide a sleek, common system initialization framework that could be standardized across multiple Linux distributions. systemd promised to speed up system boot times, better handle race conditions, and in general, improve upon an item that wasn't exactly broken, but wasn't as efficient as it could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) to me, systemd was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. not necessarily a bad thing except that it has a couple of major bugs and its forefront proponents come across as arrogant baztards. Edited August 26, 2014 by crp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 if i may, let me put on my old programmer hat from when i was using Linux in the mid-90s. Linux wasn't quite POSIX but it was based on the principles of how to make a Unix system. and one of the core aspects of that is to use small functions that do one (or two) things extremely well and chain them together to make extremely useful system applications. Systemd does not do that. in fact, just the opposite, it is a nice big fat binary file. And that is where the real philosophical divide resides, imho. but it is not just a quaint point for insiders to argue about, it is also about the future direction of Linux. Is it going to stick to its Unix underpinnings or move to a msWindows/OS-X/Android system ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Systemd is not binary as binary implies closed source of which it is not. BTW Linux is not Unix http://techcrunch.com/2008/03/24/arent-unix-and-linux-the-same-thing-yes-and-no/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Systemd is not binary as binary implies closed source of which it is not Nonsense. binary in no way implies closed source. and systemd is binary.don't believe me? check out the 'Boot loader configuration' section at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/systemd#systemd_-_An_alternative_boot_manager . Heck, even its logfile is binary. BTW Linux is not Unix http://techcrunch.co...ing-yes-and-no/ show me where i wrote it was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 You didnt but others keep saying that Systemd is against the UNIX philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Do you mean "Secure boot"? UEFI has long been available on Linux and I have used it for about two years already: https://wiki.archlin...mware_Interface https://wiki.archlin...ace#Secure_Boot No I mean UEFI. Many Linux distros still prefer to be installed with the old fashioned MBR and BIOS config. Linux Mint 17 will use that given the defaults. Also the way GRUB works with UEFI can be a bit glitchy. I've used UEFI too but I bet we are in the minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 (edited) Could this systemd thing be viewed as effectively wresting control of the Linux kernel away from Linus? Yes, a total neophyte question, I know. I'm just a little ol' private first class. Sorry for asking, sir... Sorry, sorry... My gut tells me this won't be a good thing. Can you say "back door"? Ugh... I bet it really pissed some folks, how Linux tended to be a lot harder to penetrate. Maybe those days are now over? "We have a Digital Right to Manipulate your data any way we see fit, mate. Get used to it..." Systemd as DRM? Well, I'm just sayin'. I dunno- just an ignorant peasant with torch and pitchfork... What I don't get is how the commercial derivatives get to come back and torch the very place where they themselves were born, killing all the old folk in the village in the process. That ain't right... "I used to search with steel..." (Conan the Barbarian) Soooo- who is going to build the digital 'Williamsburg Village' theme park Linux distro where all the old Linux folk can go and feel safe and totally immersed in our glorious past? The real Williamsburg is doing great economically. Revolutionary war themed venues are hot these days. But of course the Americans 'won' that one... Edited August 26, 2014 by Cluttermagnet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 Linus controls the kernel and systemd has nothing to do with that. I do not think there is a way to take Linux from Linus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 26, 2014 Share Posted August 26, 2014 This whole rant reminds me of the XF86 versus Xorg discussion. In my opinion, everyone is making it out to be more than it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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