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Jail for MP3 Pirates?


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I don't know what perfect world you live in but I am afraid to say the crime starts with the big business and trickles right on down the ladder.You think we the people are bad - are you blind to big business practices?  You say the replies are babble?  Your babble isn't any better I am afraid to say.  It's not us the people that are crippling this nation.  You can recite laws till your blue in the face, but who are those laws really protecting?  Amazing the wave that gets set off from the top when the little guy steps out of line and steals a song, but yet they have their hands in our pockets all the time, but obviously that is ok with you cause than you don't have to fire that janitor that you really never needed in the first place.
THEY are US or "We have met the enemy, and they are us"...You can't really point the finger at politicians or big business as the cause of all that is wrong in the world today. Instead, blame the human condition. Politicians and people who run big businesses are no different than you and I, no smarter, no dumber. They just happened to be in the right place at the right time or were born into the lucky sperm club. Were we in the same place as they, we would likely be making the same decisions in an attempt to protect our turf. Human nature doesn't change. In other words, if you believe thievery, cheating and so on are part & parcel of big business and politics, it's only because these attributes are part of most of us. We, as individuals, must change in order for our businesses and institutions to change.To paraphrase a statement I made in another thread, it's easy to point the finger and complain about the problems. It's a lot more difficult to be part of the solution...
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Guest LilBambi
Funny how history repeats itself. Although, I was thinking more along the lines of the Boston Tea Party LOL!
History doesn't repeat. Once it's gone - it's gone. We just don't ever seem to LEARN from what has happened in the past...
Yes, that's what 'history repeating itself' means ... at least that was my understanding. :whistling:
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Funny how history repeats itself. Although, I was thinking more along the lines of the Boston Tea Party LOL!
History doesn't repeat. Once it's gone - it's gone. We just don't ever seem to LEARN from what has happened in the past...
Yes, that's what 'history repeating itself' means ... at least that was my understanding. :blink:
Not quite. Many people feel that we are compelled to repeat what has gone before, ad infinitum. The point I wanted to make, apparently unsuccessfully, :blink: was that we DO have the power not to repeat what has gone before...
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we DO have the power not to repeat what has gone before...
Vietnam War from 60s and 70sand now....Iraq War, once in 90s and now again in 2003+ to infinity and beyondpeople never protested 'en masse' the Vietnam war until several years went by and many body bags were being shipped back to the States.Now to avoid the same situation, TENS of MILLIONS protested around the world, including one rally that had OVER A MILLION PEOPLE in britain. and this was before the war even began. so technically, millions of people tried to stop history from repeating. yup, a whole lot of good that did. Bush brushed the millions off as a 'focus group' (his exact words), and decided to follow the will of a few thousand 'oil focus group' members instead.when the government of the people stops listening to its people, thats when a bit of house-cleaning is needed. if there are millions of people that use P2P, and the RIAA gets more 'say' at altering government laws than the millions who obviously dont agree 100% with copyright laws, something is messed up with the system. I say scrap the DMCA and introduce new copyright laws for the new internet age, instead of passing laws to jail copyright infrigments and make it into a federal crime.
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Guest LilBambi

Oh, sorry ibe98765 ... that is a very good point. I never knew some people thought that we are compelled to repeat history!I know history has in fact repeated itself, but I have always felt we have a choice and the power to NOT repeat it.Life is not like Bill Murry's "Ground Hog Day." ;) We always have a choice to do something else ... to make a difference ... as you said, if we learn from the history that came before us so we don't end up repeating it.----Also, I don't want to give the wrong impression here. I feel we all as citizens make our own decisions as to how we respond to what we feel is right or wrong in personal matters as well as in our society.In my opinion, we live in the best country in the world. That is not to say that any one else's country is not the best to them, but it is how I feel about my country. It is just that I will always be proud to be an American, even with the problems that are here right now.[rant on]But I do take my rights seriously as a citizen. And if I see an injustice to those rights, I have the right to boycott that injustice. That was why I referenced the ladies in history. To show how strongly folks feel about their rights. This is something that goes deep in our society. We as a country, have been through so much and overcome so much to get through to this day.We may be young as a country by many European and Asian standards, where some countries' ages are counted not in hundreds of years, but thousands of years old, however, we have made it through quite a bit in our time as a country.Folks can say what they want about our founding fathers, but it doesn't alter the fact that WHEN RIGHTS, RESPONSIBILITIES AND FREEDOMS ARE USED AND UPHELD AS INTENDED, this country's Republic works like a champ.And I would hate to see any sector of the American public, no matter how small and influential, whether it be the music or software cartels, in the name of overly greedy capitalism, steal from us our customary fair use rights or force us to use DRM or not be able to make fair use of what we lawfully purchase or do what we please within that fair use that has historically been ours.[/rant off]

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But I do take my rights seriously as a citizen. And if I see an injustice to those rights, I have the right to boycott that injustice.
Right on!! ;)
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Life is not like Bill Murry's "Ground Hog Day."
:D great flick! "Bartender, can I have another one of these, this time with some booze in it." ;)
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Ive been staying out of this mostly because Cluttermagnet and others have been posting some really insightful views that I agree with and couldn't add anything useful till now. But I think I've got something to add now.

You can't really point the finger at politicians or big business as the cause of all that is wrong in the world today.  Instead, blame the human condition.  Politicians and people who run big businesses are no different than you and I, no smarter, no dumber.]
No, you can't put all the blame on Politicians or big business. However, if human condition is to blame, then it happened 50-60 years ago, and the sad fact: It was TRUST that created this situation.The economy was kicking, peoples lives were good....the relatively new middle class was enjoying it's new found luster. We (or our parents/grandparents) trusted our leaders to make the right decisions to preserve our future. What did they do?? invented the industriomilitary complex to the point of out of control. It still is very much out of control. If you go and look a what weapontry companies (as well as the government itself) sells to third world countries, it is staggering. Most of the wars that have happened over the last 40 years have happened because the USA had exported a military arsenal to 3rd world countries (and the soviets to their enemies). These ongoing events are paralleled by non-military companies, who by the hard work of their workers, prospered. Now that they are rich, they get richer by firing tens of thousands of people and moving thier factories to third world countries, moving their headquarters to Barbados so they don't have to pay taxes. And that's what Dubya is talking about when he says the economy is doing better. So many fortune 500 companies have a large portion of thier profits being made by children working under slave conditions in Asia, and their home office off-shore are exempt from taxes. THESE ARE THE LUCKY SPERMERS AND THE ARE GREEDY AND GREED IS EVIL.
They just happened to be in the right place at the right time or were born into the lucky sperm club.  Were we in the same place as they, we would likely be making the same decisions in an attempt to protect our turf.
I and many others really hope you don't mean that. That is SO weak.
Human nature doesn't change.  In other words, if you believe thievery, cheating and so on are part & parcel of big business and politics, it's only because these attributes are part of most of us.  We, as individuals, must change in order for our businesses and institutions to change.
Do you not think that millions of people worldwide downloading is NOT making a statement. Problem is, that there will be nobody worthy appointed to represent them against RIAA and the like. THere is no special interest group pushing to meet RIAA in the middle of the road, or to even build a new road.
To paraphrase a statement I made in another thread, it's easy to point the finger and complain about the problems.  It's a lot more difficult to be part of the solution...wef
I really reccomend you check out some books from Michael Moore. Start with "Downsize This" then "Stupid White Men." See what you (we) are up against.
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You can't really point the finger at politicians or big business as the cause of all that is wrong in the world today.  Instead, blame the human condition.  Politicians and people who run big businesses are no different than you and I, no smarter, no dumber.]
No, you can't put all the blame on Politicians or big business. However, if human condition is to blame, then it happened 50-60 years ago, and the sad fact: It was TRUST that created this situation.The economy was kicking, peoples lives were good....the relatively new middle class was enjoying it's new found luster. We (or our parents/grandparents) trusted our leaders to make the right decisions to preserve our future. What did they do?? invented the industriomilitary complex to the point of out of control. It still is very much out of control. If you go and look a what weapontry companies (as well as the government itself) sells to third world countries, it is staggering. Most of the wars that have happened over the last 40 years have happened because the USA had exported a military arsenal to 3rd world countries (and the soviets to their enemies). These ongoing events are paralleled by non-military companies, who by the hard work of their workers, prospered. Now that they are rich, they get richer by firing tens of thousands of people and moving thier factories to third world countries, moving their headquarters to Barbados so they don't have to pay taxes. And that's what Dubya is talking about when he says the economy is doing better. So many fortune 500 companies have a large portion of thier profits being made by children working under slave conditions in Asia, and their home office off-shore are exempt from taxes. THESE ARE THE LUCKY SPERMERS AND THE ARE GREEDY AND GREED IS EVIL.
No, that is completely wrong. People didn't trust politicians or big business any more or less in the past. For example, many people were not happy with the monopoly that Standard Oil built in the late 1800's, which led to the creation of the Sherman Antitrust Act in 1890. Many were not happy with the railroad Barons of the mid 1800's. There were numerous bank and stock manipulations going back as far as you want in history. What is diferent now is that we have a much better educated populace and information is available nearly instananeously now. But of course, with so much information available, this lends itself to the people looking at a small slice of information and attempting to extrapolate it, often erroniously. People, such as in this discussion, take a small slice of information, jump on it and ignore the big picture.You state "So many fortune 500 companies have a large portion of thier profits being made by children working under slave conditions in Asia, and their home office off-shore are exempt from taxes." Do you buy anything, anything at all from, Wal-Mart, The Gap, Lowes, Home Depot, Nike and various and sundry others? Do you buy any computer products made in Asia? Are you married? Did you buy a diamond ring for your wife? If your answer is yes to any of these questions, then you are supporting the companies, executives and activities that you rant against.
They just happened to be in the right place at the right time or were born into the lucky sperm club.  Were we in the same place as they, we would likely be making the same decisions in an attempt to protect our turf.
I and many others really hope you don't mean that. That is SO weak.
I most certainly did mean what I posted. What exactly is "SO"weak about the statement?
Human nature doesn't change.  In other words, if you believe thievery, cheating and so on are part & parcel of big business and politics, it's only because these attributes are part of most of us.  We, as individuals, must change in order for our businesses and institutions to change.
Do you not think that millions of people worldwide downloading is NOT making a statement. Problem is, that there will be nobody worthy appointed to represent them against RIAA and the like. There is no special interest group pushing to meet RIAA in the middle of the road, or to even build a new road.
Since when is taking something that isn't yours and that you have no legal right equated to "making a statement"? As has been said many times previously in this thread - music isn't essential to life. If you don't agree or like the terms the seller offers, then just turn your back and don't buy from them or use their products. Trying to pull a "Robin Hood" by turning thievery into a simple "making a statement" is nothing but disingenuous. Lets guess that there are maybe 2 billion people in the world with access to a computer (about 25% of the world population). How many do you think are doing illegal downloads to make a statement against corporate greed? I believe that this gives too much credit to most people, who I think are downloading digital music on the sly just because they can.I've read much of Michael Moore's stuff and I basically agree with a lot of what he is saying. Still, like most politicians, what Moore is really doing is catering to the masses of people who are generally dissatisfied with their life and are looking for someone else to blame, someone other than themselves.Yes, there is a lot that is wrong with our society and a lot that could be improved. Overall though, I think we are better off than we were years ago. You can choose to be part of the solution or part of the problem...
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Cluttermagnet
http://arstechnica.com/news/posts/1069219930.html*Sigh*How can people take the music industry seriously if they seriously think consumers will perceive fewer songs as greater value? :)
It works for the diamond industry... :)
That's a wierd and somewhat unfortunate comparison. Are you familiar with that industry's sordid history? There are some parallels, but they are pretty negative.
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Cluttermagnet
Since when is taking something that isn't yours and that you have no legal right equated to "making a statement"? 
Aw piffle. No right? Sez who? Do you go so far as to even reject Fair Use? Completely? Partially? After a while, these arguments become circular.
What is diferent now is that we have a much better educated populace and information is available nearly instananeously now.
Oh, really? You really believe that? And which information, specifically, would you be referring to here? Technological? Maybe. "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"? I very much doubt it! Not inside or outside of court. Not from your government and industry. Not from the media. Not anywhere. You have to pan for that rare gold yourself. We have perhaps more people overall who get education beyond 12th grade, but the liberally- educated graduate is a rapidly vanishing species. Today's grads are far less 'worldly wise' and sophisticated, as you allude to:
But of course, with so much information available, this lends itself to the people looking at a small slice of information and attempting to extrapolate it, often erroniously.  People, such as in this discussion, take a small slice of information, jump on it and ignore the big picture.
Yes. And although you are saying that, you are also doing that. As I have pointed out before, you and others are onto this "thievery" issue like a pit bull with a big mouthful of ankle. There have been far worse comments made in these threads than any of yours, but you have basically bought into this labeling, name- calling, throw the peasants in the dungeon mindset which I and others emphatically reject. OK, technically, you can cite minutae in the law, which changes almost minute by minute as industry's handmaidens in government, bought and paid for, rush to do their masters' bidding, and the law slowly becomes obscene, bloated, and evil. You are talking about 'law' and we are talking about justice! The two do not necessarily have anything in common.It appears the two sides will never agree on the terms of the debate. I have certainly seen that many times before in all sorts of hotly debated issues. It really comes down to how you frame the issues. I reject your judgement as to my position in this issue. I make the same charge as you do- that you are the one who has failed to see the big picture. You say that even such petty scofflaw behavior as personal- use digital copying is being 'part of the problem'. I respectfully disagree, and am suggesting very much that the very same behavior is part of the solution! These things are often called "social movements" and they can be irresistable when the times are changing. The term that comes to mind is 'civil disobedience'. Such group behavior, in the face of laws on the books, led to sweeping changes like the ever- advancing civil rights movement championed right here in America. When the crooks are rotten, throw them in jail. When the law is rotten, throw it out the window, along with all the frickin' lobbyists. I think this argument has really gone about as far as it can, as both sides have taken pretty firm and diametrically opposed positions. As I have alluded to earlier, and at great length, "divide and conquer" is dynamically in evidence here. And if we leave it that way, 'they' win and we lose. If you think that I am going to be a slave to the law at all times and in every way, you are a lot crazier than I ever thought you were. Just for example, if the speed limit signs all say 55mph and everyone is doing 65, I am going with the majority on that one, because the slow driver is one of the greatest hazards on the roads today (in a majority of settings, not all). I try to keep a bubble of empty space around me to the extent possible. That helps avoid accidents. If every other car on the road is overtaking me, I am not driving defensively and not adapting to changing conditions. You have to go with the flow.If the law says that I have to rat out someone because I witnessed a major crime, and I know I am going to get myself killed if I testify against said lowlifes, I am going to pull a 'Sergeant Schultz' if ever compelled to take the witness stand ("I know nothingggg!"). Never mind the law, I want to go on living, OK? I can be dumb as a box of rocks when my survival depends on it. We hear of just such murders to silence witnesses fairly often in my area, often gang- related.As I alluded to in an earlier post, I find it hard to imagine how difficult and complicated and confusing life might be for anyone who seriously tried to slavishly live in perfect accordance with every little law that is on the books. I very much doubt that is possible, even for a very wise and intelligent person who surrounded themself with teams of lawyers to advise them on every little nuance and consequence of their every word and deed. Probably the only way to pull it off would be to never go out anywhere, ever, and spend your entire waking life in earnest prayer and fasting and maybe a little self- flagellation. Even the prophets of the world's great religions did not do that. As the buddha taught, it is a life lived wisely in the middle, avoiding the extremes, that is the life worth living. The prophets agreed, and they 'broke a few eggs' from time to time. Get real. I still cannot believe we are arguing about this issue in the way that we are. It is self- denigration and self- villainization, and it plays right into the hands of the real authors of our current problems, sitting and eating their nice expense account dinners and laughing at us all. As I say, divide and conquer. "The sleeper must awake!" (from Dune)
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Aw piffle. No right? Sez who? Do you go so far as to even reject Fair Use? Completely? Partially? After a while, these arguments become circular. (etc., etc., etc...)
How very true. As has been said before, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. FAIR USE IS NOT ABOUT TAKING THOUSANDS OF DIGITAL MUSIC FILES AND SHARING THEM WITH EVERYBODY OR ANYONE. If you do so, then you are a thief, plain and simple. Jeber made a good post in another thread that nicely jibes with mine and some others positions. Read it here:http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.ph...122entry50311You're free to hold whatever views and opinions work for you. But you seem to be getting yourself a bit worked up over this issue, ranting verbosely and tangentially on how bad the government is, how bad business is, how bad life in general is these days under our corrupt rulers. And it appears that in your passion, you might be turning this a bit personal. I know you don't want to go there, so I recommend that you sit back, take a few deep breaths and try to relax a bit. Take a walk, do some TM, have a drink. :)
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Aw piffle. No right? Sez who? Do you go so far as to even reject Fair Use? Completely? Partially? After a while, these arguments become circular. (etc., etc., etc...)
How very true. As has been said before, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. FAIR USE IS NOT ABOUT TAKING THOUSANDS OF DIGITAL MUSIC FILES AND SHARING THEM WITH EVERYBODY OR ANYONE. If you do so, then you are a thief, plain and simple. Jeber made a good post in another thread that nicely jibes with mine and some others positions. Read it here:http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.ph...122entry50311You're free to hold whatever views and opinions work for you. But you seem to be getting yourself a bit worked up over this issue, ranting verbosely and tangentially on how bad the government is, how bad business is, how bad life in general is these days under our corrupt rulers. And it appears that in your passion, you might be turning this a bit personal. I know you don't want to go there, so I recommend that you sit back, take a few deep breaths and try to relax a bit. Take a walk, do some TM, have a drink. :)
i see what clutter meant by going in circle. its frustrating every single time the words "thief" or "criminal" or "stealing" are thrown around. thats what is so frustrating, to see how the 'system' already has those words deeply ingraved into everyone, and since no one like thieves, it makes the population turn on each other instead of turning all the energy against the system. same deal with 'terrorism'. as soon as that is mentioned, you're ostracized from the public. crowd control, thats all it is. French and Germans dont want war. that means they're terrorists. or at least, terrorist supporters. let's excavated dead US soldiers from france and ship them back to US soil! (as was proposed by a senator a while back). then came onslaught of anti-french jokes, spoon fed to everyone by the 'system'. just like whats been going on with COPYRIGHT INFRIGMENTS. it is NOT a criminal offense, it is NOT an act of theft of property. the 'system' wants you to believe that, and many already do as i see on here. it is an act of not having a right to COPY something without artists permission. originally, copyright was created so that artist get compensated for their work of art, but the original US government gave it a short time limit, so that ancestors of artists cannot keep feeding off the profit from generation to generation to generation. bascially, they didnt want to return to a class society, and wanted works of art (paintings, books, music) to be given to the public domain. yet the time limit of how long copyright lasts was lengthen multiple times, such as when Mickey Mouse was going to be public domain in the 1970s, and so they pressure government and law was changed to be artist' life + 150 years. and in sure in 2100 or whenever Mickey Mouse copyright will expire, it will be extended again and again. and voila, we return right back to a class system, where people born into the Disney family empire or ABC or Vivendi empire will start off filthy rich and stay that way as they keep making money from the lower classes. and in the meantime, if you refuse to comply to the will of the 'system' and refuse to let your society slip into a rich/poor class state, you are labelled a Pirate, Thief, Criminal, etc..., when all you're doing is duplicating a work of art without permission. so lets call things what they are, not what the 'system' calls it. you get busted by the RIAA, NOT the police. you get a notice to appear in court, on charges of COPYRIGHT INFRIGMENT. you're not bound and shackled and given charges of Grand Theft, and sent away for 10 years, are you? well, you might be in the future, but right now, you're NOT a criminal, you're more like a civil disobedient bum. :)
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:D  someone is getting married??  run dude while ya still can!!
yeah, but i want a kid too. kinda of hard to get a kid and then tell the lady to scram since she's not needed anymore. :lol: im just kidding. or am i? :D
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:D  someone is getting married??  run dude while ya still can!!
yeah, but i want a kid too. kinda of hard to get a kid and then tell the lady to scram since she's not needed anymore. :lol: im just kidding. or am i? :D
Oh mannn....My daughter is 2.75 now. and if you want a kid, you're gonna NEED your woman for a long time.Contrats.........and you can run all you want, as long as your final destination is the altar (or court house, or Vegas :D :P
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Contrats.........and you can run all you want, as long as your final destination is the altar (or court house, or Vegas  :D  :lol:
Forget Las Vegas. Niagara Falls also has drive-thru wedding chapels, and i could get there on half a tank of gas. :D
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No, that is completely wrong. People didn't trust politicians or big business any more or less in the past. For example, many people were not happy with the monopoly that Standard Oil built in the late 1800's, which led to the creation of the Sherman Antitrust Act in 1890. Many were not happy with the railroad Barons of the mid 1800's. There were numerous bank and stock manipulations going back as far as you want in history. What is diferent now is that we have a much better educated populace and information is available nearly instananeously now. But of course, with so much information available, this lends itself to the people looking at a small slice of information and attempting to extrapolate it, often erroniously. People, such as in this discussion, take a small slice of information, jump on it and ignore the big picture.
We are still getting the wool pulled over our eyes in THIS information society. "Many were not happy with" How many?? 5% that KNEW what was going on?? In theory, we elect the government to look out for our needs. Look at what goes on behind our backs here, and tell me that this is what you were looking for as far as representation is concerned. While we're busy raising kids in a two income family, how do you propose to stay up on what congress is NOT doing in our name. CNN? Fox News? bitte. The government/bigbusiness (those three words should really get joined sometime to make it more clear) gets away with crimes before we ever hear about it.
Do you buy anything, anything at all from, Wal-Mart, The Gap, Lowes, Home Depot, Nike and various and sundry others? Do you buy any computer products made in Asia? Are you married? Did you buy a diamond ring for your wife? If your answer is yes to any of these questions, then you are supporting the companies, executives and activities that you rant against.
I'll go through them one by one: no. no. no. no. no. My computer was bought in pieces. Did I check where each component came from, of course not. yes, and no diamonds. If we are going to drop some money, it's going to be on something useful. diamonds don't buy diapers. If you check my profile, you can see that I was born in '61 and now live in Germany. So all those "no's" are very possible. I am sure that your post was written to all that are reading/participating, not just me. And I am sure that a lot of those people would be shocked if they really looked where those products come from. You can only watch so carefully. Sometimes you get things that were made from sweatshops in the 3rd world, but how are you to know? The labeling is not always so pronounced. But we digress, as Clutter so eloquently put it.I think that part of what made the U.S.A great was that people generally did what they did, be it for the better or worse. mostly for the better. What we do/did for years is follow the rules to the larger extent. CM said it well about the speed limit. If you drove 55, you got run over and were probably endangering yourself and others. what are some other things that we do/did to take matters in our own hands??? Glad you ask :D We:drained the hose on the gas pumps after we shut off the pump. yep, that was theft.we consistantly do a pause 2, 3 instead of a stop when we see there is nothing coming.we start our cars and let them run for 15 minutes before getting into them in the winter.leave the car running for 10 minutes with the airconditioning running in the summer while we run in to get milk and smokes.have cultivated a hemp plant for sport just to see if they could. didn't matter if they grew rope or not. not to mention the millions who smoked the real stuff despite the laws against it.I'm sure we could come up with 100 points of illegal / immoral things that society has embraced.And as far as music goes: if it's out there, we're going to get it. well, I shouldn't say we, cause I don't do it. you know, after the death of 8 Tracks, replaced by the superiour sonic quality of cassette's, We did lot's of illegal copying back then. and it wasn't just, "oh, you like that? I'll make you a tape." it was: One person would buy the albumn, and copy 5 tapes for their friends, then take the albumn back and get thier money back. "sorry it really sucks". We were kids, and it was a cool idea. That's the way kids (and that goes a lot older than one may think) look at it today. cool. it's just that thier tools are a hellava lot cooler than our cassette recorders were.
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after the death of 8 Tracks, replaced by the superiour sonic quality of cassette's,  We did lot's of illegal copying back then.  and it wasn't just, "oh, you like that?  I'll make you a tape."  it was:  One person would buy the albumn, and copy 5 tapes for their friends, then take the albumn back and get thier money back.  "sorry it really sucks".  We were kids, and it was a cool idea.  That's the way kids (and that goes a lot older than one may think) look at it today.  cool.  it's just that thier tools are a hellava lot cooler than our cassette recorders were.
exactly! :D some of these RIAA Lawsuits and Notices to Appear in Court are address to 15 year olds! why, when i was fifteen, i copied every song i could from the radio! If the RIAA went around trying to LOCK UP kids that copied tapes, there would be an uproar! but because its now in the form of Mp3s, many people are like "good for them, let them learn their lesson" or my favorite, "where were the parents in this?". Parents have more important things to worry about, like, "can i still feed my family once i get layed off?" or "i'm going to have to put a third mortgage on my house if these credit card bills keep stacking up".oh, and the arguement that copying cassette was ok, but copying mp3s is evil because the SOUND FREQUENCY is much better is the weakest arguement i've yet heard in this long thread. :D nobody seems to have problems with saving some high-resolution photo of some copyrighted picture and setting it as their background, do they? or photocopying an article in a magazine. heck, that is in the same league as mp3 piracy, a league of 'copyright breaking', yet no one cares if the poor photographer goes hungry or the writer goes broke because you are 'stealing' his copyrighted work.
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Cluttermagnet
It works for the diamond industry... :D
dont even get me started on diamonds. :D p.s. - i proposed this past weekend. she said yes. :D
Congratulations, Prelude! I'm very happy for you, guy. May it be a wonderful and lasting joy to you both.
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Cluttermagnet
Aw piffle. No right? Sez who? Do you go so far as to even reject Fair Use? Completely? Partially? After a while, these arguments become circular. (etc., etc., etc...)
How very true. As has been said before, you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. FAIR USE IS NOT ABOUT TAKING THOUSANDS OF DIGITAL MUSIC FILES AND SHARING THEM WITH EVERYBODY OR ANYONE. If you do so, then you are a thief, plain and simple. Jeber made a good post in another thread that nicely jibes with mine and some others positions. Read it here:http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.ph...122entry50311You're free to hold whatever views and opinions work for you. But you seem to be getting yourself a bit worked up over this issue, ranting verbosely and tangentially on how bad the government is, how bad business is, how bad life in general is these days under our corrupt rulers. And it appears that in your passion, you might be turning this a bit personal. I know you don't want to go there, so I recommend that you sit back, take a few deep breaths and try to relax a bit. Take a walk, do some TM, have a drink. ;)
Hi, ibe-Well, we are making no progress at all. I do find it amusing that you have to resort to portraying my conversational style as basically agitated and overwrought. I'm sure it will do no good to report to you that because I find these dialogs interesting and energizing, I'm in a state of relative calm when I read and post in these threads. So I really don't need to do anything to 'calm down'. Gee, I'm not a mind reader like you. That puts me at considerable disadvantage in the debate. ;) I find all this basically stimulating, not irritating.You apparently refuse to address my arguments and instead prefer to mischaracterize or ignore them and to shift the subject. For my part, I have addressed your statements and have even admitted that some folks who make copies of some music are in technical violation of the law; also that some who do really agressive file- sharing on the internet are also in technical violation of the law. I do of course disagree with what should be the consequences of that, and future directions the law should take in these matters. I guess it must be more important to you to be 'right', above all. You bob and weave like a prize fighter. OK, it's a tactic that will keep you from taking as many blows, if that is what you are after. I'm after some real debate. Defend your ideas, attack mine, but don't embarrass yourself with thinly veiled, mild little attacks on my personality and writing style. Unless you actually want to incorporate that into the debate? I'd personally rather debate the ideas and leave the personalities out, and I believe you really do too when you say so. I have no emotional investment whatever in trying to win you over to my views. I do think that I have succeeded in exposing the views you support (not you personally) as being one- sided, short- sighted, and judgemental. Others seem to agree. This is not only about your ideas, either. There are others here who support your side of the argument. I guess it profits us nothing to argue this any further, as you have such a different idea of what is being argued here. I cannot allow you to dictate the terms of the debate. I frame it much differently than you do. You can allow yourself to get sucked into the name- calling ideas if you like, but I don't have to accept those specious arguments. So you go on SHOUTING about the agressive internet file sharers, but I am engaged in a debate about the overall politics of all copying of music today, regardless of source or means of copying. You choose not to address that wider issue. OK. You have shut yourself out of the debate, then, because you are not being flexible, and because you choose not to argue against the ideas I am putting foreward- you ignore them instead. If this debate were being scored, I think you would find yourself disadvantaged. If it ended at this point, I really doubt the judges would have awarded you many points in the debate. Please understand that I may attack your ideas but I am not attacking you in any way. You are a worthy party to this debate. In fact, you are quite the sparkplug of the group, bringing us quite a lot of interesting new questions and topics. I really enjoy that. :thumbsup:
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How is it possible to debate this issue?No one has addressed the issues...The majority here believe that the “law†is wrong, flawed, not in touch with reality; caters to big business, etc., etc.If you don't like the laws then change them. How do you accomplish this? Elect officials that believe like you do. Do all of you vote in elections? Do all of you participate in the process?For me it is simple... if you don't like our system of government or the laws that it creates and enforces... then leave. You are free to go where ever you like. There are lots of countries out there where you can do whatever you like.In this debate when the law has been mentioned, what has the response been? The law is wrong, it does not apply to me; everybody does it so it's ok. It was created by big evil business. It is harmful to consumers. The record companies have been screwing the artists over for years. My not adhering or following is an act of civil disobedience... it is my right as a citizen to protest the unjustness of the law.Yes, we all have the right to protest. But while protesting, do I have the right to throw a rock through a store front window to show my distaste for the law I’m protesting about? The police can come in and demand that I leave that my being there in a certain location is a threat to safety (which they are bound to enforce) and arrest me if I don’t disperse. There are laws that govern the activity of my lawful disobedience. Let's take this logic and apply it to other laws... The law says I can't go around beating people up. My neighbor is a real jerk. He blocks my driveway all the time. His kids play their music loud all night long or work on their cars until 4 in the morning. I call the police but it still continues. There is no justice! I want justice! I want to go out and confront him and beat him silly to get my point across to respect my rights for peace and quite. Stupid unjust laws...We all know I can't enforce justice in a manner that will comfort me. I have to play by the rules of the system. That maintains order.We have many unjust laws, silly laws, but it is all we have. If we start turning our backs on the laws we don't care for, how can we exist as a local community, state or nation? Or do all of you seek total chaos? I’ll abide by only the laws that suit my needs and the **** with the rest of them. Is your philosophy of life such that “my needs outweigh the needs of the majority?â€I think out great country has done as well as it has because there are those who still believe that “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.â€My position is thus: If you don’t like the laws then change them or move somewhere else… it’s a big planet with lots of room…

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Sorry Fran,

We have many unjust laws, silly laws, but it is all we have. If we start turning our backs on the laws we don't care for, how can we exist as a local community, state or nation? Or do all of you seek total chaos?
From what I see on the news, hear from people running for office, people IN office, the U.S.A. is right around the corner from chaos. The great idea of America has been stretched and perverted beyond extremes. THings are very different now than they were 50 years ago. The branches of the government haven't honestly kept up with the "progress" of the times. Not only that, the corruption envolved in the system, deeply embedded into the system, will not be able continue indefinately. The change will probably not be a peacful one, and will probably happen on a planetary scale, not local, state or national. Then again, what monumental change ever was?? Your theory is correct, and it sounds great on paper, and it SHOULD work in practice. But the system is broke. has been for a long, long time. I cease and desist :thumbsup:
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