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Time to get back to Linux


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#26 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 09:56 AM

Excellent info here about the Thinkpads!

Everything I have here came used or drastically discounted, and with Windows, and in each case I simply wiped the drive and installed Linux.

#27 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:14 AM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 11 July 2018 - 06:59 AM, said:

View Postebrke, on 09 July 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

I'm looking at a couple of refurbished Thinkpads on Newegg,

Do not go there, simply go to ebay and look up the business class thinkpads. Companies can only use them for three years (due to warranty) so you can get high end laptops for cheap that are mostly in great condition as most never left the docking stations. They will not come with an OS as they have been wiped but that is easy to fix.

For instance, a bunch of us at work have bought the HP 9470s from ebay. Mine came with an i7, 8gb ram and a 250gb ssd for $180. I bumped the ram to 16gb and added a 1tb ssd. So now I have a very powerful, thin laptop that costs me less than $300. Plus since they are business class, they are made much better and have accessories like docking stations easily available.
What about Amazon and Walmart online? I bought a refurbished HP 8000 with Win 10 pro installed, Keyboard, and mouse. Intel dual cpu 4 gb ram, and DVD for $99 on Walmart upgraded it with more ram, and ssd. about $250 total. Where on Ebay did you find the refurbished lappy?
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#28 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:32 PM

Just search for used business laptops. Here is the one I have https://www.ebay.com...gAAOSwIFtZ8Ei9w

But mine has an i7
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#29 OFFLINE   ebrke

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 04:44 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 11 July 2018 - 06:59 AM, said:

View Postebrke, on 09 July 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

I'm looking at a couple of refurbished Thinkpads on Newegg,

Do not go there, simply go to ebay and look up the business class thinkpads. Companies can only use them for three years (due to warranty) so you can get high end laptops for cheap that are mostly in great condition as most never left the docking stations. They will not come with an OS as they have been wiped but that is easy to fix.

For instance, a bunch of us at work have bought the HP 9470s from ebay. Mine came with an i7, 8gb ram and a 250gb ssd for $180. I bumped the ram to 16gb and added a 1tb ssd. So now I have a very powerful, thin laptop that costs me less than $300. Plus since they are business class, they are made much better and have accessories like docking stations easily available.
What's the problem with refurbished from Newegg?
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#30 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 04:47 PM

Price

You can't get a refurbished with those specs for $170 at any retail store.
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#31 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 04:50 PM

Plus the business class laptops are built much better than the consumer ones.
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#32 OFFLINE   ebrke

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 05:01 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 11 July 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

Plus the business class laptops are built much better than the consumer ones.
I've been looking at Thinkpads. Far as I know they're business class (T430). I realize there's a price difference, but I feel comfortable with Newegg as a vendor. I'll have to think about it.

Edited by ebrke, 11 July 2018 - 05:02 PM.

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#33 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 05:22 PM

Yeah, the Thinkpad T430 is but some of the thinkpads are not. Basically, if you can get a docking station for it, then it is business class.
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#34 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:21 PM

I actually got my Thinkpad T430 from a bricks and mortar store (Canada Computers) in Ottawa. Price was OK - stuff is always more expensive in Canada.
I was able to see before buying and verify that the Thinkpad was in pristine condition. I don't think it ever left the office.
Mine has an SSD and 8 GB of RAM. I got the simple Intel video (no hybrid graphics.)
It came with Windows 10 but I never ran it that way at all - just reformatted and installed Debian.
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#35 OFFLINE   ebrke

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:30 AM

I've just read several things about people having trouble getting into uefi setup on lenovo laptops running win10. I know absolutely nothing about win10, but one user was told that this was normal with win10 because "shutdown is just a sort of hibernation and is not safe to change uefi settings in that mode" and something about using shift restart to get into uefi settings. Anyone have any idea what the heck that's about?

I'm just realizing this should probably be in a new topic; if it turns complicated I'll repost it.
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#36 OFFLINE   sunrat

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:47 AM

Shift Restart/Shutdown is a way of avoiding Fast Startup which is a hybrid hibernation mode. I haven't heard of it affecting UEFI setup but I guess it's plausible.
I have heard numerous reports of how different manufacturers implement UEFI specs haphazardly.
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#37 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 06:45 AM

View Postsunrat, on 12 July 2018 - 01:47 AM, said:

Shift Restart/Shutdown is a way of avoiding Fast Startup which is a hybrid hibernation mode. I haven't heard of it affecting UEFI setup but I guess it's plausible.
I have heard numerous reports of how different manufacturers implement UEFI specs haphazardly.

Yup, I was going to say the same thing. I also have not heard of it affecting UEFI. I haven't ran into any issues with those two but I am also not playing with Lenovos at work.
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#38 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:45 AM

I have not run Windows 10 at all on my T430. I have BIOS version 2.54. Secure Boot is off. The setup I have runs both UEFI and legacy BIOS but is set to try legacy first. This works fine with Linux.
As far as Windows 10 goes, I have found that a lot of updates/changes do not stick unless you choose Restart from the menu - not Shutdown.

https://www.techrepu...-bios-settings/
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#39 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:47 AM

Well on a side not, UEFI works just fine on Linux. I only use UEFI/GPT on my computers.
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#40 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:52 AM

I'm sure UEFI works fine but I haven't bothered with it since every machine I've had still supports MBR/Legacy.
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#41 OFFLINE   ebrke

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 02:57 PM

View Postraymac46, on 12 July 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

I have not run Windows 10 at all on my T430. I have BIOS version 2.54. Secure Boot is off. The setup I have runs both UEFI and legacy BIOS but is set to try legacy first. This works fine with Linux.
As far as Windows 10 goes, I have found that a lot of updates/changes do not stick unless you choose Restart from the menu - not Shutdown.

https://www.techrepu...-bios-settings/
I was trying to see if I would have any issues trying to change to Legacy Boot when I came across reports of issues with win10. If I wind up getting a machine with win10, I'll probably just get rid of it and hope for the best in terms of having voided the warranty. I'm not going to spend that much on a refurbished anyway.

Raymac, did you just delete all partitions with something like gparted when you got rid of win10? Did you have any issues deleting the epi partition?
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#42 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 05:22 PM

View Postebrke, on 12 July 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

View Postraymac46, on 12 July 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

I have not run Windows 10 at all on my T430. I have BIOS version 2.54. Secure Boot is off. The setup I have runs both UEFI and legacy BIOS but is set to try legacy first. This works fine with Linux.
As far as Windows 10 goes, I have found that a lot of updates/changes do not stick unless you choose Restart from the menu - not Shutdown.

https://www.techrepu...-bios-settings/
I was trying to see if I would have any issues trying to change to Legacy Boot when I came across reports of issues with win10. If I wind up getting a machine with win10, I'll probably just get rid of it and hope for the best in terms of having voided the warranty. I'm not going to spend that much on a refurbished anyway.

Raymac, did you just delete all partitions with something like gparted when you got rid of win10? Did you have any issues deleting the epi partition?

Do NOT delete the EFI partition in a GPT scheme!  This is where GRUB installs!

I ordered a GorillaBox (makers of Chimpbox) from an add in PC Linux magazine, but asked them to NOT install PCLOS, as I was going to install my custom Lubuntu distro over it.  They gladly complied and shipped the machine even quicker than they said they would.  Long story short, the motherboard had a UEFI implementation of BIOS and I got a crash course on installation of Linux to GPT partition schemes.  The installation kept failing on the last step, which was a GRUB error that I don't remember.  After about 2-3 failed attempts I fired up a gPartEd live cd and discovered that my partitions were fine and the OS had installed...it just wasn't booting.  Troubleshooting was pretty quick after that...GPT partition schemes require an EFI partition for installation of GRUB.  I created the partition with the recommended size, installed GRUB and....TADA....the newly installed OS booted right up.

If I had let the maker install PCLOS and then I over-wrote with my own, I would've been fine.  If I had purchased a Win10 machine and over-wrote, or dual booted, I would've been fine.  Instead, I cussed a lot, walked away several times, read some more, learned some things that I've probably forgotten already, but solved the problem and retained this knowledge....you need an EFI partition to boot UEFI/GPT installations!  You're welcome!  B)

#43 OFFLINE   ebrke

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 05:25 PM

I believe from what I read that openSUSE creates the epi partition during install if you use the secure boot option. I don't want to do that--I think I'll use legacy boot.
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#44 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 05:33 PM

A couple of things that may help you. If the machine comes with windows and UEFI Bios, If you install linux and tell it to use the whole hard drive it will take care of all of the partitioning and will delete all of the windows partitions. It will erase the whole hard drive. if you don't want to do that then you can us gparted to partition the hard drive the way you want it. There are several advantages to using a UEFI Bios and GPT partitioning. I use GPT partitioning and can have as many Primary partitions without having to have a Extended Partition. You are not limited to 4 primary partitions like you are with legacy or MBR partitioning if you use UEFI and GPT partitioning. all of your partitions can be primary. there are many other advantages, but I won't go into them here. I wrote a post a long time ago about GPT versus MBR in this forum.
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Edited by mhbell, 12 July 2018 - 05:36 PM.

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#45 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 05:36 PM

Yeah, UEFI requires a EFI boot partition to even work.
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#46 OFFLINE   ebrke

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 05:52 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 12 July 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:

Yeah, UEFI requires a EFI boot partition to even work.
Even if I use Legacy Boot? Also, I believe openSUSE creates efi partition during install if Secure Boot option is enabled, but it's a little difficult to be sure with the documentation sometimes. I was curious how raymac handled this, since he says he reformatted before linux install.
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#47 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 06:07 PM

Quote

Raymac, did you just delete all partitions with something like gparted when you got rid of win10? Did you have any issues deleting the epi partition?

All I did was boot the Debian netinstall image from USB. Then I let the installer reformat the SSD and take it over, deleting everything on it. Debian formatted it as MBR and I have basically two partitions - one for the O/S and one for swap.
As I said earlier the setup boots in legacy format, so no need for EFI partitions.
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#48 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 06:16 PM

Let me just say I have nothing against GPT/EFI if you want to roll that way. In fact, I'll eventually reach a point where legacy won't be an option for me. Most modern distros do a good job with EFI anyway. Secure Boot is another matter - some support it, some don't.
I just stick with the defaults when installing and so far that has meant legacy.

Edited by raymac46, 12 July 2018 - 06:17 PM.

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#49 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 06:18 PM

View Postebrke, on 12 July 2018 - 05:52 PM, said:

View Postsecuritybreach, on 12 July 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:

Yeah, UEFI requires a EFI boot partition to even work.
Even if I use Legacy Boot? Also, I believe openSUSE creates efi partition during install if Secure Boot option is enabled, but it's a little difficult to be sure with the documentation sometimes. I was curious how raymac handled this, since he says he reformatted before linux install.

Legacy and UEFI are opposites. Legacy boot is MBR, UEFI uses EFI.
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#50 OFFLINE   ebrke

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 06:22 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 12 July 2018 - 06:18 PM, said:

View Postebrke, on 12 July 2018 - 05:52 PM, said:

View Postsecuritybreach, on 12 July 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:

Yeah, UEFI requires a EFI boot partition to even work.
Even if I use Legacy Boot? Also, I believe openSUSE creates efi partition during install if Secure Boot option is enabled, but it's a little difficult to be sure with the documentation sometimes. I was curious how raymac handled this, since he says he reformatted before linux install.

Legacy and UEFI are opposites. Legacy boot is MBR, UEFI uses EFI.
That much I do know. I'd like to stick with legacy I think.
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