raymac46 Posted October 17 Share Posted October 17 CD/DVD-RW is really a dead technology in many ways. A lot of current laptops don't have it. Personally I don't use it unless I have a very old system that won't boot from USB. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abarbarian Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 15 hours ago, Cluttermagnet said: It would be great to have a way to hot plug a SATA SSD externally on a desktop tower. But it uses a USB pipeline? As you already have several spare ssd's a dock would probably be your best next step forward. This article gives some interesting information. https://techreport.com/review/thermaltakes-blacx-5g-usb-3-0-docking-station/ Quote HD Tach results aren’t necessarily representative of real-world transfers, so I created a 7GB collection of essays, digital pictures, movies, program folders, and audio files. The BlacX transferred these files to the drive at 17MB/s when using USB 2.0 and nearly double that speed (32MB/s) over USB 3.0. When copying the files from the drive to my system, USB 2.0 hit 27MB/s, while USB 3.0 reached 57MB/s. Those are substantial advantages for USB 3.0, although I should note that my old BlacX achieves similar performance with eSATA transfers. I had a single port dock with USB 2.0+ eSATA and was pretty impressed with the speed of it. It is about fifteen years old and still working well. Now I have a dual port dock with USB 3.0 as my later pc builds did not have eSATA ports . I have some decent spec old SATA hdd's as well as some spare ssd's which I use for backups. The dock has allowed me to utilize the old hdd's rather than dump them to landfill. As to ssd longevity. https://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.php?/topic/95890-disk-speed-test-readwrite-ssd-performance-in-linux/&do=findComment&comment=465576 Quote The experiment Clearly, many factors affect SSD endurance. Perhaps that’s why drive makers are so conservative with their lifespan estimates. Intel’s 335 Series 240GB is rated for 20GB of writes per day for three years, which works out to just under 22TB of total writes. If we assume modest write amplification and a 3,000-cycle write/erase tolerance for the NAND, this class of drive should handle hundreds of terabytes of flash writes. With similarly wide discrepancies between the stated and theoretical limits of most SSDs, it’s no wonder users have reported much longer lifespans. Our experiment intends to find out just how long modern drives actually last. Bear in mind that test was run in 2013 and ssd's have improved since then. I have bought several secondhand ssd's from E-Bay and checked how much they have been used and how many errors they have reported and so far all have hardly been used for 10% of their official lifespan and only one has shown a single error. So to all intents and purposes they are almost like new. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted October 18 Share Posted October 18 When you can get a 240 GB SSD or NVMe for $35 Canadian or 1TB for $65 Canadian and free shipping from Amazon, I don't bother with used drives. Of course as Erik says, risk is low with buying used ones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goretsky Posted October 19 Share Posted October 19 Hello, You solved the issue of getting into the BIOS/UEFI firmware, but just as a general troubleshooting step for the future, if you ever have trouble getting in, try disconnecting all the drives, unplugging the AC power and CMOS/RTC backup battery (usually a CR-2032 or some variant) and letting the machine sit for a bit. Then plug the AC power back in, turn it on, and you should be prompted with a clock/missing drives error, and prompted to enter the BIOS/UEFI firmware by pressing some key combo. Regards, Aryeh Goretsky 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted October 20 Author Share Posted October 20 (edited) I found a 2-slot docking station for USB 3.0. It was dirt cheap, 20 dollars. I think it's going to be beige, rather than black. For that price, I can live with it. As it type this, I am surrounded by a cave-like dual computer setup on my kitchen table, and everything is black. But I remember, back in the day, when everything was beige. Two mid-towers flanking two monitors in the middle. Just enough room to set down a plate of food by sliding back the keyboards... https://www.newegg.com/nippon-labs-nl-st0022a-dock/p/N82E16817816021?Item=9SIABU5C7E0480 Clutter Edited October 20 by Cluttermagnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted October 20 Author Share Posted October 20 (edited) On 10/19/2024 at 12:23 AM, goretsky said: Hello, You solved the issue of getting into the BIOS/UEFI firmware, but just as a general troubleshooting step for the future, if you ever have trouble getting in, try disconnecting all the drives, unplugging the AC power and CMOS/RTC backup battery (usually a CR-2032 or some variant) and letting the machine sit for a bit. Then plug the AC power back in, turn it on, and you should be prompted with a clock/missing drives error, and prompted to enter the BIOS/UEFI firmware by pressing some key combo. Regards, Aryeh Goretsky Thanks Aryeh. Makes sense. A truly 'master reset'. Although you didn't mention it, I'm sure the 2032 coin cell goes back in when ready to power back up. I will remember all this, it's pretty simple really... And by now I have committed to memory the key sequence for BIOS in this HP tower. It's F6, Esc, F10. Right now I am on the fence so far as redoing this small 120GB SSD. I think I'll let it ride in 'Legacy Boot' mode. When I replace that drive with perhaps a 240GB SSD I will try letting it do its UEFI thing. BTW what you wrote could be interpreted as powering back up with all drives still disconnected? Is that what you meant? I would have assumed at least one of the drives would first be reconnected. But you mention a clock/missing drives error message. I do know that drives can be 'hot plugged' later, with power on... I bet that right now, my BIOS fiddling has probably rendered the original Win 10 HDD non-bootable(?) This is a low priority for me presently, but I do have that good working copy of Windows. It sits on the original drive which is presently disconnected. I plan to eventually reactivate windows, if only to enable me to use a couple of old flat bed scanners... (work with Windows only) Clutter Edited October 20 by Cluttermagnet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 In my view it's not worth the aggravation these days of trying to dual boot Windows and Linux on the same machine. You eventually will hose your bootloader and only one of them will boot. Then there's the secure boot issue. Better to learn about virtual machines and boot Windows as a guest O/S on a Linux host. Lots of folks around here like myself, Hedon James and of course Josh who can walk you through it. If you must dual boot look into rEFInd as a bootloader. Erik can halp with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 (edited) As for old scanners I gave up on these relics years ago and just use an HP AIO printer/scanner now which is wireless and perfectly compatible with either Linux or Windows. Given that I have 2 Windows machines and 7-8 Linux junkers that made sense. Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em... Edited October 20 by raymac46 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 Sorry, didnt mean to post that image here. I deleted it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abarbarian Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 1 hour ago, securitybreach said: Sorry, didnt mean to post that image here. I deleted it. Cor ! some possible real dodgy stuff eh. Gi us a looksee then. Don't be shy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abarbarian Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 5 hours ago, raymac46 said: If you must dual boot look into rEFInd as a bootloader. Erik can halp with that. Hmm not so sure. rEFind is a tad more complicated on Mint, not a lot but I am still not familiar with it on anything other than Arch. As to dual booting. I installed Windows to a drive then disconnected the drive, installed Arch to a drive, then reconnected the Windows drive, set Arch to boot first in the Bios, if I wanted to boot Windows I did it from the BIOS boot menu. That way Windows never saw the Arch drive so could not bork it. Was a slight fiddle to do it that way but only a tad inconvenient. I thought it was easier than learning how to play with virtual machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted October 20 Share Posted October 20 I tried rEFInd with Linux Mint a few years ago, when I was just learning about UEFI. It worked OK. However I wasn't trying to dual boot Windows with it - just use it as a bootloader since GRUB wasn't that great with EFI at the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 use Ventoy for a form of dual booting. and you would get the benefit of being able to try multiple OS's without too much hassle. and ease your way to finding your best setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abarbarian Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 6 hours ago, crp said: use Ventoy for a form of dual booting. and you would get the benefit of being able to try multiple OS's without too much hassle. and ease your way to finding your best setup. Ventoy is great for trying out distros or keeping a rescue distro or two on hand. It would not be much help for dual booting Windows and a Linux that are permanent installs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunrat Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 18 hours ago, raymac46 said: In my view it's not worth the aggravation these days of trying to dual boot Windows and Linux on the same machine. I've run Windows as multiboot with several Linux installs (about 8 atm) on the same drive for ~20 years, rarely had issues. I almost never update Windows though as I hardly ever use it. IIRC the last upgrade I did for Win 10 may have hosed GRUB but I just used REFInd on a Ventoy stick to boot Debian and reinstalled GRUB. Easy peasy. Actually the hardest thing I've encountered with GRUB lately was to get OpenSUSE Tumbleweed to boot from Debian Bookworm GRUB. Ended up solving that by chainloading the OpenSUSE EFI stub. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 15 hours ago, abarbarian said: Hmm not so sure. rEFind is a tad more complicated on Mint, not a lot but I am still not familiar with it on anything other than Arch. As to dual booting. I installed Windows to a drive then disconnected the drive, installed Arch to a drive, then reconnected the Windows drive, set Arch to boot first in the Bios, if I wanted to boot Windows I did it from the BIOS boot menu. That way Windows never saw the Arch drive so could not bork it. Was a slight fiddle to do it that way but only a tad inconvenient. I thought it was easier than learning how to play with virtual machines. Well you didn't need to do all that. Just install windows first and then whatever other distro you want. Windows will always over take the boot loader if installed after anything. This has always been the case, even back when I dual booted 15+ years ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 LinuxMint will even do this for you in the installer if you have windows installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 (edited) 15 hours ago, abarbarian said: Hmm not so sure. rEFind is a tad more complicated on Mint, not a lot but I am still not familiar with it on anything other than Arch. As to dual booting. I installed Windows to a drive then disconnected the drive, installed Arch to a drive, then reconnected the Windows drive, set Arch to boot first in the Bios, if I wanted to boot Windows I did it from the BIOS boot menu. That way Windows never saw the Arch drive so could not bork it. Was a slight fiddle to do it that way but only a tad inconvenient. I thought it was easier than learning how to play with virtual machines. That's GENIUS barbarian! No way Windows can update it's bootloader and overwrite GRUB if it doesn't even know the other disk(s) exists! 26 minutes ago, securitybreach said: Well you didn't need to do all that. Just install windows first and then whatever other distro you want. Windows will always over take the boot loader if installed after anything. This has always been the case, even back when I dual booted 15+ years ago. While what you say is 100% true, SB, it is also possible that a Windows update can update it's bootloader in the EFI partition and overwrite whatever GRUB has done in the EFI partition, thereby rendering Windows as the only bootable drive. Linux is still there, but can no longer be booted unless you go through the gyrations to perform a GRUB repair and update, or install rEFInd. Barbarian's solution is quite simple and elegant, IMO. There is no way for a Windows update to bork his GRUB if Windows doesn't even know the Linux partition exists; and vice verse. And many folks don't realize that UEFI can also be a bootloader! The only thing I'd disagree with is Barbarian's assessment that this was easier than setting up a VM. Having read so many of his troubleshooting adventures, I KNOW he's a sharp guy (and there are NO fools here at BATL), and VMs aren't difficult or complicated. In fact, I'd argue they are simpler and easier than bare metal installations. If he ever dips his toes in the VM waters he's going to look back on that statement someday and chuckle at himself over those thoughts. Until then, whatever works for him....but VM is definitely the way to go. I've said this for about 15+ years now, but I think ALL COMPUTERS should be sold as VMs, allowing the user to install whatever OS they see fit. Turn the machine on, there's the VM interface, and either install a new VM from ISO, or simply select the OS already installed. JMO... Edited October 21 by Hedon James 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 Oh there is another surefire way to do that, just don't install Windows. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 44 minutes ago, Hedon James said: I've said this for about 15+ years now, but I think ALL COMPUTERS should be sold as VMs, allowing the user to install whatever OS they see fit. Turn the machine on, there's the VM interface, and either install a new VM from ISO, or simply select the OS already installed. JMO... That would be very difficult for most users. They can barely use a computer with a preinstalled OS (windows). I am in the enterprise environment and it amazes me daily how dumb most people are. I would of never thought that I would be the smartest person in a room full of high level engineers. Go figure... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunrat Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 I tried and failed several times to install Win11 on KVM/QEMU. I don't really want Win11, just to stickybeak. Linux works pretty much every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 6 minutes ago, sunrat said: I tried and failed several times to install Win11 on KVM/QEMU. I don't really want Win11, just to stickybeak. Linux works pretty much every time. Odd I was able to do it last year to test something. I was using virt-manager to install it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 I went from one machine-one O/S to dual booting to distro hopping to chainloading/distro farming to virtual machines to one machine-one O/S. I have found that it is easier to get a junk machine for next to nothing and install my favorite Linux, than to try anything fancy. I'm sure each of you has found your best way of working. When it comes to Linux it's LM for the family, Arch for me. The biggest PITA by far for me was trying to maintain Windows 10 in a VM - license issues, security, endless updates. YMMV of course. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 3 hours ago, securitybreach said: Odd I was able to do it last year to test something. I was using virt-manager to install it. Same here. I'll bet Sunrat has an issue with TPM Module. If memory serves correct, virt-manager addressed it by default. Most use VirtualBox....maybe VB hasn't addressed it by default? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted October 21 Share Posted October 21 As far as I can see VB 6.1 or later can support TPM but I would go with 7.1.X to make sure. Fortunately don't have to deal with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abarbarian Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 On 10/21/2024 at 11:13 AM, securitybreach said: Just install windows first and then whatever other distro you want. Yeah I used to do that. Then one day Windows blue screened and hosed everything so I went the separate disk route. No problems after that, well at least not with Arch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goretsky Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 On 10/20/2024 at 1:12 AM, Cluttermagnet said: Thanks Aryeh. Makes sense. A truly 'master reset'. Although you didn't mention it, I'm sure the 2032 coin cell goes back in when ready to power back up. I will remember all this, it's pretty simple really... And by now I have committed to memory the key sequence for BIOS in this HP tower. It's F6, Esc, F10. Right now I am on the fence so far as redoing this small 120GB SSD. I think I'll let it ride in 'Legacy Boot' mode. When I replace that drive with perhaps a 240GB SSD I will try letting it do its UEFI thing. BTW what you wrote could be interpreted as powering back up with all drives still disconnected? Is that what you meant? I would have assumed at least one of the drives would first be reconnected. But you mention a clock/missing drives error message. I do know that drives can be 'hot plugged' later, with power on... I bet that right now, my BIOS fiddling has probably rendered the original Win 10 HDD non-bootable(?) This is a low priority for me presently, but I do have that good working copy of Windows. It sits on the original drive which is presently disconnected. I plan to eventually reactivate windows, if only to enable me to use a couple of old flat bed scanners... (work with Windows only) Clutter Hello, After you had gotten into the PC's firmware and changed/saved everything to your liking, you would want to power down again and reconnect the CMOS/RTC backup battery and the computer's drives. Windows will not switch between BIOS/MBR mode and UEFI/GPT mode without a reinstall. Technically, it can be done with tricky disk re-partitioning using third-party utilities, but the process is complex and I generally find it safer to just perform the reinstall. Regards, Aryeh Goretsky 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted Tuesday at 03:48 AM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 03:48 AM (edited) My 2-slot USB 3.0 docking station from NewEgg finally showed up. Fortunately it is black, rather than beige, as the writeup suggested. But I hooked it up only to find that it is not communicating with the mobo in this HP tower. I'm puzzled. I did try two different USB 3.0 slots, one on top, one on the rear panel. No joy. For some reason this computer cant see the docking device. I will next try a 3.5 in HDD drive. It didn't work so far with a 32GB SSD socketed. Clutter https://www.newegg.com/nippon-labs-nl-st0022a-dock/p/N82E16817816021?Item=9SIABU5C7E0480 Update: Computer also cannot see a 1TB SATA HDD, brand new, which I also know to be working. The HDD is unformatted, the SSD is formatted. I did try unplugging and re-plugging the USB plug, no joy... Edited Tuesday at 04:16 AM by Cluttermagnet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted Tuesday at 04:10 AM Author Share Posted Tuesday at 04:10 AM (edited) Trying the docking station on my old Dell Precision 390 workstation, I find that machine can recognize the little 32GB Crucial SSD. It complains it cannot mount the 1TB WD HDD. But it at least sees it- if I remove the SSD. Maybe 1TB is too big? Nah... BTW the 390 only has USB 2.0 slots, bunches of them. No USB 3.0 available. On the HP tower, I'm running Mint 22. And the USB 3.0 port I tried has successfully run before- when I did the OS install from a flash drive. On the 390, the OS is Mint 20. I doubt that should make any difference... Could this simply be because the 1TB HDD has never been formatted? I will next try formatting that big HDD. This time, maybe instead of MSDOS I go with that other one (I forget the name) which can recognize up to 128 partitions... Clutter Progress: I formatted the 1TB HDD to gpt. Hope I remembered that right. Added a 100GB FAT32 partition at the low end of the drive. Successfully copied a graphic to that partition. Now I'll move the docking station back over to the the HP tower and try again... And... That did the trick. Now the HP box is recognizing the docking station. Both drives plugged into it, both visible/mountable. Whew! Now I can work with this new gadget and get some feel for how fast this USB 3.0 pipe can actually move data... Edited Tuesday at 10:08 AM by Cluttermagnet 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted Tuesday at 01:40 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 01:40 PM Nice! Your setup very closely mirrors mine. I've got a Lenovo ThinkCentre SFF (monitor mount) with OS on a NVME drive, and a Sabrent dual-dock station. I use a 2TB SSD as a "Data Drive" for my Docs, Downloads, Music, Pictures, Videos, etc... (the SSD was actually cheaper than a HDD at the moment I ordered); and a 4TB HDD as my "backup drive", with a folder for "Home Backup" and "Data Backup". And I always retain my installation disk for my heavily customized OS (Debian). In the event of a disk failure, I can easily replace that disk and recover data quite quickly. In the event of NVME failure, I can replace that quite quickly, and reinstall my OS within 10-15 minutes, and copy over customized settings of my Home directory from my Backup Drive. If I need to upgrade/replace my ThinkCenter, simply disconnect the Sabrent dock station, replace the ThinkCenter (I also have Optiplex SFF in identical setups), load up the OS, reconnect the dock station, and I'm back in business. Nothing is 100% foolproof, but I feel prepared for 99%+ of anticipated failures. I'm still exposed to a catastrophic fire event, or a flood event; but I'm not worried about flood because of where I live....if I flood, the world has ended. That just leaves fire....and I'm more worried about the security of off-site backups than I am about the prospect of fire. One of these days I SWEAR I'm going to follow through on a fireproof USB/Vault drive. Gonna have to be about 20TB or more though, LOL! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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