Dr. J Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 I've been using Manjaro for a good while now, since I got hit by a dodgy update on Siduction. It seems as though I've found my perfect distro anyway. The rolling release model is what attracted me to arch based distros in the first place, and Manjaro suits me better than Arch because of the simple installer - I can set it up again quite quickly without needing an internet connection in case I do something stew-pit that ends up breaking everything... There's also "manjaro-tools", which make it pretty easy to make a custom release, or so I've heard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abarbarian Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 But overall I've been kinda surprised that I haven't had to ask for much help (the Arch wiki rocks!), and also kinda surprised at how stable Arch has proven to be over time. Best rolling-release distro I've ever used, easily. Snap 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Maybe I should temper some of my earlier negativity about Manjaro. My problems with it were more a factor of that #@!!& AMD video card than anything else. Anyone with Nvidia or Intel or for that matter an older AMD card wouldn't have had any issue whatsoever with black screens and boot failure. Also the fact that the wifi clapped out after an update was probably a buggy Network Manager that could have (and did) occur with other distros. I had good results with Manjaro on my small 64 bit Intel Atom netbook but I was wary about taking a rolling release distro on holiday and ending up with a borked system in the middle of the Atlantic. So I switched back to LM 17 Xfce and had no stability issues while I was away. In my biased view rolling release is great fun and I loved the challenge of installing Arch the hard way - no installer needed. I think I learned more about the inner workings of Linux that way than any other thing I've done - except maybe getting wifi working with WPA back in 2007. Manjaro has a great installer and if you're making an ISO you probably need this. After it's installed you have pacman and you couldn't ask for anything more. I know there are some huge fans of rolling release around here but I am not one of them. I would just as soon run an LTS distro and get stuff done. I did upgrade to LM 18 but that was because it finally worked well with the FOSS AMD driver on my card, and I like the latest version of HPLIP in case I ever get a new printer. I think as far as the Manjaro forum is concerned - if you steer clear of a couple of the Mods who are real jerks you can survive there. There are some really impressive and helpful people who hang out on the Manjaro forum. There is an air of condescension among the forum management that really puts me off though. I was a Mod for a decade on another forum (not computer related) and I never acted that way. Nor do any of the forum admins here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share Posted February 1, 2017 I've been using Manjaro for a good while now, since I got hit by a dodgy update on Siduction. It seems as though I've found my perfect distro anyway. The rolling release model is what attracted me to arch based distros in the first place, and Manjaro suits me better than Arch because of the simple installer - I can set it up again quite quickly without needing an internet connection in case I do something stew-pit that ends up breaking everything... There's also "manjaro-tools", which make it pretty easy to make a custom release, or so I've heard. Finally, someone who has used Manjaro AND continues to use it. Was getting worried about all those who tried it, but moved on to something else (tells me they're open-minded enough to consider, but Manjaro couldn't close the deal). And it's interesting to me that you're citing the very same reasons that make Manjaro attractive to me, including "manjaro-tools" for ISO creation! But Arch has ArchISO, so it isn't really exclusive to Manjaro, and a Calamares GUI installer is distro-agnostic. With the Arch-Anywhere and Architect installers referenced above, that "levels the playing field" somewhat in my eyes. Both have access to extra packages with AUR compatibility. Manjaro gets a +1 for its emphasis on "user-friendly usability", but Arch gets a +1 for documentation and Wiki. Arch users seem to generally be more knowledgeable with troubleshooting (+1), but also seem to be generally less tolerant of those who have inferior google-skills (a huge -1). This will be a process, not an event. So I think I'm gonna have to load up each one in a VM, build it/customize it to my liking, troubleshoot issues along the way, see what breaks & how often, generally maintain them as if they're daily drivers....and see where it leads me. At the right moment(s), the path will reveal itself...it always does... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 AUR packages are fine for the most part but since they are not official packages, I do not think I would be very comfortable with them enabled by default. There have not been any malicious ones that I have ran across but since anyone can add an AUR package without any checks, you could theoretically point them to a malicious webserver instead of where they should be fetching the source from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abarbarian Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Well the AUR wiki page is pretty clear about safety of AUR packages. There are two warnings one in black and white and one in a pink box in case you missed the first. I nstalling packages Installing packages from the AUR is a relatively simple process. Essentially: Acquire the build files, including the PKGBUILD and possibly other required files, like systemd units and patches (often not the actual code). Verify that the PKGBUILD and accompanying files are not malicious or untrustworthy. Warning: Carefully check all files. Carefully check the PKGBUILD and any .install file for malicious commands. PKGBUILDs are bash scripts containing functions to be executed by makepkg: these functions can contain any valid commands or Bash syntax, so it is totally possible for a PKGBUILD to contain dangerous commands through malice or ignorance on the part of the author. Since makepkg uses fakeroot (and should never be run as root), there is some level of protection but you should never count on it. If in doubt, do not build the package and seek advice on the forums or mailing list. An I chanced across this post concerning Antergos and Yaourt which makes me think I may have to change my AUR helper. https://forum.antergos.com/topic/5860/praise-and-a-couple-of-suggestions/2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Personally I have been using pacaur as my AUR manager for years and it works perfectly. To iterate on what you mentioned above, that is why I gave the warning as a repo for AUR packages would not prompt you to read the PKGBUILD file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 Hey SB, I could really use your technical expertise/guidance in figuring out a Manjaro/Arch technical issue. Following through with my "dueling VMs" of Manjaro & Arch, and re-creating my heavily customized LXDE/MimeticDE desktop with alternative fluxbox & pekwm window managers that work so wonderfully in Ubuntu. Running into an issue with Fluxbox right out of the gate. In short, typing "fluxbox --replace" in terminal switches my WM in Lubuntu 16.04/MimeticDE environment, exactly as I want. Stole it directly from the Arch Wiki for LXDE: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/LXDE#Replace_Openbox But both Manjaro AND Arch throw an error when I try to switch from default Openbox to Fluxbox using "fluxbox --replace". Error thrown is: [jim@manjaro ~]$ fluxbox --replace BScreen::BScreen: an error occured while querying the X server. another window manager already running on display:0.0 Error: Couldn't find screens to manage. Make sure you don't have another window manager running. I've been googling all over the internet, but feels like I'm chasing my tail here. Additional background and documentation regarding this ongoing issue can be read here: https://forum.manjaro.org/t/manjaro-lxde-openbox-fluxbox-pekwm-question/16776 I don't want to be THAT guy who asks you a Manjaro question, but please note that Arch behavior is IDENTICAL, and it appears both distros are using identical packages, identical versions, etc... Forgetting this is a Manjaro issue, can we focus on the fact this is also an Arch issue (that perhaps Manjaro inherited from Arch?)...any ideas on where to look next? In my experience with Ubuntu vs. Manjaro/Arch/ArchBang...the "script is flipped". These types of things tend to work as expected in Arch-based distros, while Ubuntu bungles them up. Seemingly unimportant, this is a MAJOR component of my MimeticDE customizations. Love to get this figured out...can't really move forward with Arch or Manjaro until I figure this out. Any advice buddy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 Well I am at my side job for the next 6 hours but I'll see what I can find when I get home (on mobile now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 BTW you mentioned Pek WM is "still early stages". Actually PekWM has been around since 2005: https://bbs.archlinu...ic.php?id=14749 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 So have you actually tried this in Archlinux or just in Manjaro? The reason I ask is because Manjaro changes a lot of things and tweaks them specifically for Manjaro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I am just wondering if I need to fire up a Archlinux VM and try to replicate the issue or not? It's easier to troublshoot when your in front of a machine. I could do the same with Manjaro if you have already done this in Archlinux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 I am just wondering if I need to fire up a Archlinux VM and try to replicate the issue or not? It's easier to troublshoot when your in front of a machine. I could do the same with Manjaro if you have already done this in Archlinux. I have an Arch VM (installed with Arch Anywhere, if it even matters); packages include LightDM & LXDE (via installer selections), fluxbox & pekwm (via terminal command). Manjaro VM installed with Manjaro Net installer; packages include lxde (which defaults to lxdm DM); fluxbox & pekwm. Both VMs are identical as I can make 2 different distros; both appearing to use same versions of same packages (with exception of LightDM vs. LXDM, but that was on purpose....you'll see why in my linked thread). Whatever you need to do....I will welcome with gratitude...I am STUMPED?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Well I can install Archlinux using the Archlinux VM to try to replicate your issue but I only asked because Manjaro frequently patches applications whereas Archliunx rarely patches and mainly uses vanilla packages (just as the original devs intended). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 Well I can install Archlinux using the Archlinux VM to try to replicate your issue but I only asked because Manjaro frequently patches applications whereas Archliunx rarely patches and mainly uses vanilla packages (just as the original devs intended). Understood. FWIW, that is exactly the reason I installed Arch in a VM and loaded with the same packages. And as I was typing "pacman -S packagename" I was noting that versions were the same (where available....the "lxde" package was unknown). But fluxbox was 1.3.7 on both systems, and pekwm was 0.17.x (can't remember right now) on both systems. And both systems yielded the same result...error posted above regarding BScreen. Any further details or clarifications, just ask. I've spun the Rubik's Cube around so many times, in every direction, that maybe I just can't see the forest for the trees anymore? A fresh set of eyes and grey matter are a good thing. Maybe I'm just doing something stupid.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Can you give me a pastebin or ix link for the output of pacman -Qe so I can install the same versions as you did? Its installing via the Arch Anywhere installer right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 Here ya go SB: [jim@arch-vm]: ~>$ pacman -Qe bash 4.4.011-2 bzip2 1.0.6-5 coreutils 8.26-1 cryptsetup 1.7.3-1 device-mapper 2.02.168-1 dhcpcd 6.11.5-1 dialog 1:1.3_20160828-1 diffutils 3.5-1 e2fsprogs 1.43.4-1 file 5.29-1 filesystem 2016.12-2 findutils 4.6.0-2 fluxbox 1.3.7-2 gawk 4.1.4-2 gcc-libs 6.3.1-1 gettext 0.19.8.1-2 glibc 2.24-2 gpicview 0.2.5-2 grep 2.27-1 grub 1:2.02.beta3-6 gvfs 1.30.3-1 gzip 1.8-2 inetutils 1.9.4-5 iproute2 4.9.0-1 iputils 20161105.1f2bb12-1 jfsutils 1.1.15-4 less 487-1 licenses 20140629-1 lightdm 1:1.20.0-2 lightdm-gtk-greeter 1:2.0.2-1 linux 4.9.6-1 linux-headers 4.9.6-1 logrotate 3.11.0-1 lvm2 2.02.168-1 lxappearance 0.6.3-1 lxappearance-obconf 0.2.3-1 lxde-common 0.99.2-1 lxde-icon-theme 0.5.1-3 lxdm 0.5.3-3 lxinput 0.3.5-1 lxlauncher 0.2.5-1 lxmusic 0.4.7-1 lxpanel 0.9.3-1 lxrandr 0.3.1-1 lxsession 1:0.5.3-1 lxtask 0.1.8-1 lxterminal 0.3.0-1 man-db 2.7.6.1-2 man-pages 4.09-1 mdadm 3.4-1 nano 2.7.4-1 netctl 1.12-2 openbox 3.6.1-3 pacman 5.0.1-4 pciutils 3.5.2-1 pcmanfm 1.2.5-1 pcmciautils 018-7 pekwm 0.1.17-3 perl 5.24.1-1 procps-ng 3.3.12-1 psmisc 22.21-3 reiserfsprogs 3.6.25-1 s-nail 14.8.16-1 sed 4.3-1 shadow 4.4-3 sudo 1.8.19.p2-1 sysfsutils 2.1.0-9 systemd-sysvcompat 232-8 tar 1.29-2 texinfo 6.3-1 ttf-dejavu 2.37-1 usbutils 008-1 util-linux 2.29.1-1 vi 1:070224-2 virtualbox-guest-modules-arch 5.1.14-3 virtualbox-guest-utils 5.1.14-1 which 2.21-2 wireless_tools 30.pre9-1 wpa_actiond 1.4-2 wpa_supplicant 1:2.6-4 xdg-user-dirs 0.15-4 xfsprogs 4.9.0-1 xorg-server 1.19.1-1 xorg-server-utils 7.6-4 xorg-xinit 1.3.4-4 xterm 327-1 Not sure if it matters, but if I recall correctly, all packages were installed via the Arch Anywhere Installer Script, with the exception of fluxbox & pekwm; those 2 were added manually via CLI with pacman. FWIW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I really just needed what you installed after the script. I got the same thing as you did but while searching, I am not entirely for sure that you can switch openbox with fluxbox under LXDE as LXDE is heavily dependent upon openbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 I really just needed what you installed after the script. I got the same thing as you did but while searching, I am not entirely for sure that you can switch openbox with fluxbox under LXDE as LXDE is heavily dependent upon openbox. I'm doing it with NO ISSUES in Ubuntu 16.04. Learned it from the Arch Wiki: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/LXDE#Replace_Openbox Specifically noted: Alternatively, you can autostart wm --replace using the method defined in #Lxsession where wm is the name of the window manager executable being started. This method does mean that Openbox will be started first on each login and will then immediately be replaced by the autostarted window manager. I also use "wm --replace" in a terminal to switch on the fly. I also have entries to switch WMs in my custom Openbox/Fluxbox/PekWM Root Menus. 3 different ways to do the same thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 Now that you're up to speed with a similar ArchVM and similar packages, you might want to check my Manjaro link in post #38 above for a detailed history of my troubleshooting efforts. Might save you some time....maybe you'll see something that I don't cuz I'm already lost in the forest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 Not sure if anything here is useful, but trying to be thorough. http://imgur.com/a/xJyLi Everything is nearly identical except version 1.3.5-2 versus 1.3.7-2; compiler version; and randr vs randr 1.2 compiled options. randr considerations might be interesting, as version 1.2+ requires a higher version of xserver, according to google search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Not sure if anything here is useful, but trying to be thorough. http://imgur.com/a/xJyLi Everything is nearly identical except version 1.3.5-2 versus 1.3.7-2; compiler version; and randr vs randr 1.2 compiled options. randr considerations might be interesting, as version 1.2+ requires a higher version of xserver, according to google search. Well wm -replace has been around for many years now so I doubt that would be it but then again, it could as I have not used any of the *boxes since about 2004 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Now that you're up to speed with a similar ArchVM and similar packages, you might want to check my Manjaro link in post #38 above for a detailed history of my troubleshooting efforts. Might save you some time....maybe you'll see something that I don't cuz I'm already lost in the forest... Ah, so it does basically all boil down to fluxbox as you have tested it with openbox and pekwm without any major issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I wish you would of just tested this on Archlinux since you can see the different attitude between Archlinux and Manjaro. Even the "Manjaro Team" is telling you to wait till one of them create an official Manjaro spin with only a little bit of a suggestion and that was to go to antiX's support areas. Whereas i3wm, Xmonad, pekwm, fluxbox, openbox, E16/E17, stump, ion, windowmaker, etc. have always been popular with Archlinux users due to the rolling your own environment/minimalist attitude. That is where I found all the info back when I used to use most of those. There are even large threads full of themes for the environments and such. Anyway, you may want to ask on the G+ Archlinux Community or the arch forums and include what you did on Archlinux, not Manjaro. I am still looking but that may help as well.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 5, 2017 Author Share Posted February 5, 2017 Well, I did say I was going to load up Arch and Manjaro both in VMs and see where it leads me. Coincidentally (or not), they behave exactly the same, with no apparent resolution on either forum. This appears to be an Arch issue, just as much as a Manjaro issue. I've been cruising the Arch forums also. I just didn't register there. I don't expect you to solve a Manjaro issue...that wouldn't be fair. I'm just hoping to tap into your Arch expertise to solve the Arch issue. Maybe it will also translate to Manjaro, maybe it won't. But if that's the case, I'll have a clear indication that Arch is the way forward for me. The right tool for the job, right?! I never imagined I'd have this type of issue, straight out of the gate, with any Arch packages. I've invested WAY too many man-hours in making my MimeticDE "perfect" for me...I refuse to give that up. If I have to stay with Ubuntu/Debian, so be it. I won't be happy, but....the right tool for the job ya know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I don't expect you to solve a Manjaro issue...that wouldn't be fair. I'm just hoping to tap into your Arch expertise to solve the Arch issue. Maybe it will also translate to Manjaro, maybe it won't. But if that's the case, I'll have a clear indication that Arch is the way forward for me. The right tool for the job, right?! I never imagined I'd have this type of issue, straight out of the gate, with any Arch packages. I've invested WAY too many man-hours in making my MimeticDE "perfect" for me...I refuse to give that up. If I have to stay with Ubuntu/Debian, so be it. I won't be happy, but....the right tool for the job ya know... Ah ****, I wouldn't care if it was Ubuntu. I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't enjoy this... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 I don't expect you to solve a Manjaro issue...that wouldn't be fair. I'm just hoping to tap into your Arch expertise to solve the Arch issue. Maybe it will also translate to Manjaro, maybe it won't. But if that's the case, I'll have a clear indication that Arch is the way forward for me. The right tool for the job, right?! I never imagined I'd have this type of issue, straight out of the gate, with any Arch packages. I've invested WAY too many man-hours in making my MimeticDE "perfect" for me...I refuse to give that up. If I have to stay with Ubuntu/Debian, so be it. I won't be happy, but....the right tool for the job ya know... Ah ****, I wouldn't care if it was Ubuntu. I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't enjoy this... If it wasn't for that rolling release thing...we're likely not having this discussion, FWIW. I kinda enjoy it too, but this is a perfect example of things with Linux that frustrate the bejeezus out of me. I've acquired some knowledge of what and how to accomplish EXACTLY what I want; with a "proof of concept" in Lubuntu. Who could've predicted that an Arch package (fluxbox?) wouldn't work, in accordance with information that I originally acquired from the Arch Wiki (regarding switching LXDE window managers)? Worst case, I'd think it would work in Arch, perhaps not in Ubuntu. Ideally, it would work the same in all linux distros (all versions being the same, that is). Unfortunately, reality is what I've described with my experience. The frustrating part is that NO ONE seems to know why, including a fluxbox developer who states that fluxbox "doesn't recognize the --replace flag" and never has; when I know for a FACT that it does indeed recognize it in Ubuntu, which receives their package upstream from Debian. So either the developer is wrong (which is a scary proposition), or Debian/Ubuntu patches their version of fluxbox 1.3.5-2. And IF it's the latter, why does no one know about this? I'll give Arch a pass for their philosophy of "vanilla" packages, but why do Manjaro maintainers not know about this? This is pretty typical for me, though. If there's an exception to the rule, I'll find it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 That is odd about the Fluxbox developer claiming that it never worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I don't mean to hijack this technical discussion but as far as the Manjaro forum goes the most egregious Mod has apparently retired. I won't mention names here. The most helpful guy there - FadeMind - is still around so you could contact him I suppose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 I wish you would of just tested this on Archlinux since you can see the different attitude between Archlinux and Manjaro. Even the "Manjaro Team" is telling you to wait till one of them create an official Manjaro spin with only a little bit of a suggestion and that was to go to antiX's support areas. Whereas i3wm, Xmonad, pekwm, fluxbox, openbox, E16/E17, stump, ion, windowmaker, etc. have always been popular with Archlinux users due to the rolling your own environment/minimalist attitude. That is where I found all the info back when I used to use most of those. There are even large threads full of themes for the environments and such. Anyway, you may want to ask on the G+ Archlinux Community or the arch forums and include what you did on Archlinux, not Manjaro. I am still looking but that may help as well.. I took your advice and did indeed post on your G+ community. I'm somewhat disappointed in the responses, which all seem to revolve around "do a REAL Arch install." NO ONE has even acknowledged the link to the Arch Wiki, or even attempted to address my 'fluxbox --replace' question, or even suggested how a 'real install' might remedy my experience. Even when they don't know the answer, there is still a whiff of elitism in the air. SMH... I got Arch installed and working as expected; I got LXDE installed, and working as expected; I got fluxbox installed and working as expected; I got pekwm installed and working as expected. The ONLY problem is that I can't change window managers from WITHIN LXDE using the "wm --replace" switch, as provided for IN THE ARCH WIKI itself. HOW will doing a "real installation" address this issue? Why can't ALL Arch users be more like you SB? Humble as can be, and sharing the knowledge to anyone who inquires... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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