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Cluttermagnet

Did You Hear? Paypal and DoubleClick in Bed

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I knew there was some reason why I have always studiously avoided Paypal. They had a bad reputation even before Ebay snarfed them up. I used Ebay a lot over the years, but I never forged a relationship with Paypal as a seller. What's more, if I come across an otherwise nice auction but the only payment method is Paypal, it's click! Buh bye. I want nothing to do with them as a buyer, either. I prefer to handle my own affairs, always.Google has a relationship with DoubleClick, you know. They bought 'em, in fact. I never trusted Google, either. I feel dirty just letting them look at my search habits. It's none of their d*** business. Going further than just deleting their cookies at times, I shifted over to a more anonymized search engine for most of my searches, a while back. And so far as Gmail, I was very suspicious of their motives from the getgo. I've never held any Google accounts, and I don't want any. Why on earth would I want to put my email stream in a vast, searchable data base for them to paw through? What, are you guys nuts? Some day, all your laxity is going to come back to haunt us all. I'm supposed to trust a huuuuuuge company whose motto is "don't be evil"? News flash: that horse is apparently long since out of the barn...But what does Google have to do with PayPal? Well, it turns out that Paypal has signed yet another deal with the devil, and a lot of (ostensibly) Paypal clicks, on their site, route you first through DoubleCross- er, DoubleClick before getting routed back to Paypal. And those guys no doubt strip off personally identifiable information on you as you pass through their evil server farm. They'll use it against you, mark my words. (Anyone remember "TIA"? It's probably still around, it just got forced underground) So far, just for more finely and acurately targeted sales pitches, but you wouldn't want to turn over too many rocks in that arcane world of the 'aggregators'. 'Aggregation' is nowhere near as anonymous as they'd have you believe. You probably wouldn't like what you'd find. You have no privacy. None. Don't kid yourself. But you could at least clean it up a bit, try to be a bit more careful in the future. Your life is increasingly an open book...I could cite dozens and dozens of links I've saved over the years regarding the privacy risks of dealing with these big outfits, and some of their more eggregious behaviors, but this one alone pretty much makes the case: Security Now #119 Yep, it's Steve Gibson again. He's still at it. 10 years ago, he began sounding the alarm on this sort of stuff. He was right then, and he's right today. Learn what you might do to fix this. Firefox gets a black eye in the matter, BTWHey, am I sounding anything like Andy Rooney- or John Dvorak? Good! :( Eeeuuuuwwww! I feel dirty. I'm going to go clean out most of my cookies and take a long, hot shower. I don't know if I can hope to ever completely get their smell off of me... <_<I've been too lax, must repent... ;) :whistling:

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Clutter ... I do understand completely what you're talking about, it's all about privacy.The way of thinking 'I've got nothing to hide' is a bad one, one day it might get used against you. But over-hyping the matter is a bad one too. Cookies are just that, cookies. Basically they're not bad at all, only problem is they can be used for other things too. I don't accept any cookies at all unless I'm forced too, in that case they get deleted at the end of the session.Paypal and Ebay : no thanks. And there are a whole slew of other things I say no to.It's all about profiling and using the profiles to serve you ads. They think you want to see this &&^%*@, let 'm think what they want. I just call it spying and spamming, period. :( Javascript is another thing which in theory is not bad at all but often gets used in the wrong way for wrong purposes... it's off by default in my case. And java I don't install either because I don't need it. When I was using a Windows machine all scripting was blocked, no exceptions.And I can go on rambling this and that, but the matter is I see your point. Just be careful out there ! :whistling:

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In the main, I have to agree with the OP . Even if they don't hold too much personal information, just your name and city can be enough to cause trouble.I speak from my own travails, albeit from 5-8 years ago. My name and address got harvested and used not just for creditcard purchases but also for signing on to some sex related newsgroups. (they were smart thieves too - they paid the charges prior to the statements going out and I had a heck of a time with the creditcard company.) After all these years my name still shows up in these groups via GoogleGroups , despite my protests that they simply are not true.

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Cluttermagnet - 1) What is the "more anonymized search engine" that you use, and what other suggestions might you have about such search engines? 2) If one wants to use Google search anonymously there is Scroogle: http://scroogle.org/ http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/scraper.htm This is essentially a single-purpose proxy which passes your request to Google but no other information about you. Of course that means that you have to trust the Scroogle people more than you trust Google. I tend to. Scroogle rants and raves like true enemies of the establishment, and it is run by a long-time critic of Google.

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I knew there was some reason why I have always studiously avoided Paypal.
I won't buy anything on Ebay or Amazon unless they allow me to pay via PayPal. Because I'm paranoid. I'm not about to give credit card info, send a check or even a Postal Money Order to someone I don't know. What is a safer way to pay for something online?

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If someone is truly concerned about their privacy they a.) don't use the Internet, b.) don't use credit cards, c.) don't use checks and d.) don't use a phone. They do all their business face to face and pay for everything in cash. Anything less than that is just hot air.Obviously anyone who posts here isn't all that concerned, they are online and putting their IP address in god knows how many servers. :P

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If someone is truly concerned about their privacy they a.) don't use the Internet, b.) don't use credit cards, c.) don't use checks and d.) don't use a phone. They do all their business face to face and pay for everything in cash. Anything less than that is just hot air.Obviously anyone who posts here isn't all that concerned, they are online and putting their IP address in god knows how many servers. :P
Yup... pretty much have to agree with this sentiment. In this day and age, privacy is an illusion. You want privacy? Drop off the grid entirely... no job, no phone, no home, no car, etc. I use Paypal all the time. I've never had any issues with it. I only expose ONE of my credit cards to the Internet. It's a 100% "no liability" card, meaning that someone could steal it and run up $10,000. It'll cost me NOTHING.Just like in real life, you HAVE TO USE COMMON SENSE when making purchases or exposing yourself when on the Internet. Your biggest risk online is not Paypal or Amazon. It's that forwarded email with 1,517 email addresses already on it (yours included) that the spammers harvest and use as a ready made email list. Tell your friends and colleagues to quit sending you that garbage.So what if Google tracks my searches? So what if Amazon dumps DoubleClick cookies in my browser to determine what my preferences are when shopping there? It causes me no harm. They can't feed me customized ads. I don't see ads in my browser. They can send me an occasional email with an ad for something they think I might be interested in. COOL! Maybe I'll buy it.As far as my emails on Google's servers go... who cares? I don't use email for anything to do with business or important personal matters. I use email for quick communications with online pals and to receive numerous news, science, Linux, and other newsletters.You're more at risk of the government losing your private data than you are of Paypal using it for something evil. But hey... whatever. Off I go to shop at eBay and Amazon for some goodies that I'll pay for with Paypal. ;)Later...

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Cluttermagnet -1) What is the "more anonymized search engine" that you use, and what other suggestions might you have about such search engines?
Black Box Search Of course they are probably run by NSA. :P

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So what if Google tracks my searches? So what if Amazon dumps DoubleClick cookies in my browser to determine what my preferences are when shopping there? It causes me no harm.You're more at risk of the government losing your private data than you are of Paypal using it for something evil. But hey... whatever. Off I go to shop at eBay and Amazon for some goodies that I'll pay for with Paypal. B)
Bzzzztt! Nope,
I'm sorry, that's not correct- you didn't Beat the Reaper. Well, isn't he a good sport folks. Let's wheel him out and show him, the amphitheater audience, and all the folks at home just what he has contracted...
(Thanks Firesign Theatre)Eric, did you bother to actually read the article? This isn't just cookie planting. They are very likely able to personally identify you. I believe they can- and do. I emphatically do not trust these clowns!
Steve: Well, there was a big happy orange button there that said "Apply Now." I hover the mouse over that and look down at the status line of the browser, using Firefox. And I see https://ad.doubleclick.nnn/clk: and then a big number, 118531265, then another semicolon. Sorry, the first one was a semicolon. Second semicolon and then 11466062, another semicolon, and then a bunch of other mumbo jumbo, then a question mark followed by https://www.paypal.nnn/us/cgi-bin blah blah blah. Essentially, the button that you press saying I want to apply for a PayPal Plus credit card is actually a DoubleClick URL. The URL you want, that you actually want to get to, that is, the PayPal URL, if you wanted to apply for this card, that's been added to the end, just like we were saying before, as data to that DoubleClick.net URL. The problem with this is that this then creates a first-party relationship between your browser and DoubleClick.Steve: So what this is saying is, that is, I brought up a custom page at PayPal. PayPal has on-the-fly designed these links so that there is information about me that is in the URL going to DoubleClick.Steve: Yes. And now we're going to return you to your regularly scheduled page. And so the URL tail is the PayPal URL that that button should have pointed to, but you were taken through DoubleClick in the process. And it looks to me like this is a static PayPal account ID given to DoubleClick, identifying me. Now, you know, it doesn't have my name. However, we don't know what sort of a relationship, we don't know how deep this relationship goes. It could very well be that DoubleClick has backend access to PayPal's database or vice versa, and there's some sort of information sharing going on.
(url's munged by me, emphasis mine)This is just scummy, what Paypal is doing to its users here. The point is, Paypal has sold them out to DoubleCross- er, DoubleClick, and is sending information about them personally in that huge url that gets passed along. They harvest the info, then pass them back to Paypal. They have been tricked into creating that first person relationship with those bozos. And they will abuse it.
The problem is, the URL of the page contains the data that I submitted in the form - my name, my address, my phone number, my email address, whatever it is I submitted was tacked onto the end of the URL. And that's part of the referrer field. And it was well known years ago that these third-party aggregators were anxious to know as much about us as they could. And there are confirmed instances where people would go to web pages, fill out, I mean, passively - sorry - passively look at web pages, fill out no information at all, and then receive a telephone call from a telemarketing firm that knew who they were, had their phone number, and knew what page they were browsing.Leo: This happened to a friend of yours.Steve: It actually did. It happened to a Canadian reporter who was freaked out by this. He went to the New York Philharmonic website just to see what the calendar, what the schedule of upcoming concerts was because he was going to be coming down from Toronto to New York for a trip. And he browsed around, saw what was going on, turned off the computer, went out into the back yard and was doing some gardening. The phone rang, and this was the Philharmonic marketing company that said, hey, we understand that you're interested in the symphony. We wanted to make sure you knew of a special offer. Well, he was stunned that pushing no buttons, filling out no forms, somebody knew something about him that was clearly, he felt, a breach of his privacy.
Quotes are out of order- read the referenced page yourself for the full flavor of it.Paranoid? Not particularly. I'm maybe a 5 or 6 on a 10 scale. But I am pretty jealous of my privacy. I'm practical minded because I do indeed engage in all those listed activities involving checks, telephones, internet, credit cards, etc. But I don't wish to make it easy for them, they'll at least have to dig a bit harder in my case. :P Edited by Cluttermagnet

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I won't buy anything on Ebay or Amazon unless they allow me to pay via PayPal. Because I'm paranoid. I'm not about to give credit card info, send a check or even a Postal Money Order to someone I don't know. What is a safer way to pay for something online?
Define safety. I feel much safer without Paypal. I've been trading on Ebay since '99. Around 300 successful transactions now. I've managed to keep it safe using personal checks and MO's, buying and selling. I've also used credit cards when dealing with businesses selling on Ebay with an established track record. Aside from identity theft risks, your liability when using credit cards is usually zero.Perhaps I'm just a good judge of character. I dunno. I'm pretty good at reading between the lines for the hidden info which really matters. For me, an auction which requires Paypal payments is a deal killer. Click! I felt that way long before this latest ruckus. The less middlemen there are , the happier I am. Edited by Cluttermagnet

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Hello,Strangely enough, I have blocked DoubleClick's hosts for several years now and never had trouble using PayPal. Perhaps this is done on a limited basis, or only when using PayPal through certain vendors?Regards,Aryeh Goretsky

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Eric, did you bother to actually read the article? This isn't just cookie planting. They are very likely able to personally identify you. I believe they can- and do. I emphatically do not trust these clowns!
Your own ISP has more access to your personal data than any website you visit, Clutter. You don't think they sell and manipulate your personal data? They do. On top of that, the gov can access it whenever they want. Verizon (my ISP) caved to gov pressure regarding giving them access to personally identifiable surfing habits. Don't think for a minute that Big Brother isn't watching you.There is NO privacy anymore these days. Just writing a check to someone will forever link you to them in records in databases in banks and credit bureaus. The ONLY way to maintain any semblance of privacy is to disconnect completely, as mentioned above.I like and respect Steve Gibson. I've been reading on his website for years. I just don't see the danger in all this Paypal/Doubleclick broo-ha-ha. This has been going on since the dawn of the Net. Shoot! Even Microsoft can access and track your habits. Who really knows what's in those patches they dump on your system every Tuesday. ;)Later...

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I knew there was some reason why I have always studiously avoided Paypal. They had a bad reputation even before Ebay snarfed them up. I used Ebay a lot over the years, but I never forged a relationship with Paypal as a seller. What's more, if I come across an otherwise nice auction but the only payment method is Paypal, it's click! Buh bye. I want nothing to do with them as a buyer, either. I prefer to handle my own affairs, always.Google has a relationship with DoubleClick, you know. They bought 'em, in fact. I never trusted Google, either. I feel dirty just letting them look at my search habits. It's none of their d*** business. Going further than just deleting their cookies at times, I shifted over to a more anonymized search engine for most of my searches, a while back. And so far as Gmail, I was very suspicious of their motives from the getgo. I've never held any Google accounts, and I don't want any. Why on earth would I want to put my email stream in a vast, searchable data base for them to paw through? What, are you guys nuts? Some day, all your laxity is going to come back to haunt us all. I'm supposed to trust a huuuuuuge company whose motto is "don't be evil"? News flash: that horse is apparently long since out of the barn...But what does Google have to do with PayPal? Well, it turns out that Paypal has signed yet another deal with the devil, and a lot of (ostensibly) Paypal clicks, on their site, route you first through DoubleCross- er, DoubleClick before getting routed back to Paypal. And those guys no doubt strip off personally identifiable information on you as you pass through their evil server farm. They'll use it against you, mark my words. (Anyone remember "TIA"? It's probably still around, it just got forced underground) So far, just for more finely and acurately targeted sales pitches, but you wouldn't want to turn over too many rocks in that arcane world of the 'aggregators'. 'Aggregation' is nowhere near as anonymous as they'd have you believe. You probably wouldn't like what you'd find. You have no privacy. None. Don't kid yourself. But you could at least clean it up a bit, try to be a bit more careful in the future. Your life is increasingly an open book...I could cite dozens and dozens of links I've saved over the years regarding the privacy risks of dealing with these big outfits, and some of their more eggregious behaviors, but this one alone pretty much makes the case: Security Now #119 Yep, it's Steve Gibson again. He's still at it. 10 years ago, he began sounding the alarm on this sort of stuff. He was right then, and he's right today. Learn what you might do to fix this. Firefox gets a black eye in the matter, BTWHey, am I sounding anything like Andy Rooney- or John Dvorak? Good! :) Eeeuuuuwwww! I feel dirty. I'm going to go clean out most of my cookies and take a long, hot shower. I don't know if I can hope to ever completely get their smell off of me... <_<I've been too lax, must repent... ;) :)
Clutter, your fear is irrational in today's world. You fear Google and PayPal because they could be mining information about your buying and browsing habits and yet you post regularly in this forum and others giving much more detail about yourself than could possibly be collected from those sites. And you give bank account and cc info, that could really damage you, to total strangers just to avoid what you perceive as "big brother." Identity theft is real. Big Brother isn't.

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I'm with Eric and lewmur.If you really want to be free of "big brother" then you'll prolly have to pull a Mosquito Coast.As I've mentioned before, responsible browsing habits will take you a long ways to being safe online, regardless of who's "in bed" with whom. I just don't see how someone can function nowadays when they are overly paranoid about all this stuff. Do your research. Be smart. Avoid the bad stuff. Use common sense.

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Clutter, your fear is irrational in today's world. You fear Google and PayPal because they could be mining information about your buying and browsing habits and yet you post regularly in this forum and others giving much more detail about yourself than could possibly be collected from those sites.
I don't think it's irrational. In any case, so far as my feelings towards Google and DoubleClick and their like, it's really more like resentment. They are self- interested, unintentional co- conspirators, relentlessly paving the way for a much less safe world in the not too distant future- not a world we presently live in, but one we are nearly on the cusp of. Aggregators will be subsumed under even larger database conglomerations. The aggregators will essentially have all their data aggregated. And "knowledge is power". This was the stated goal of "TIA" just recently. An ambitious goal, to be sure. Their initial purpose was to try to ferret out linguistic or other hints of terrorism conspiracies in the making. An ambitious enough goal, but having accomplished that, they could do quite a lot more as well.The 'Borg' will not be built overnight, but rest assured, barring any major discontinuities, this is a storyline which will continue to unfold long term. It has been extensively treated in the science fiction genre for many years now, at least half a century or more. As scary as the energy ripoff of the present looks to most, as I see it, the real danger is when a 'cashless society' has been achieved (a dubious achievement IMO). At this point, any despot, turning their attentions towards any particular individuals (and there would be many such individuals), could easily stop them in their tracks. Visualize a train powered by overhead electrical lines. Cut power to those lines, that train coasts to a stop. "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". The power to control absolutely the stream of credits in individual commerce, even to shut it off for individuals, is close enough to 'absolute power', and that prospect truly does scare me.If you can't see the possibility of this happening, can't see it already in the way the banking industry is refashioning itself, at least don't portray me as 'paranoid' (fearful) because I can and do see it. And so do many others. This is one of the most obvious end results of: eliminating cash as legal tender, eliminating paper checks, heavily promoting credit and indebtedness, computerizing everything, and merger mania. Perhaps one day a mandated National ID card, perhaps even outlawing barter itself. Microchipping, anyone? Perhaps, some day, there will be only one bank (airline, oil company, radio/TV network, food producer, etc.). Then some wild eyed, charismatic leader comes along and nationalizes that one bank, using some national security concern as cover. A leader with an agenda. A leader with an axe to grind. A leader who relishes absolute power and is unafraid to exercise it. You think that's paranoid? A lot of the ingredients for that are already present today, or growing, and some of what I've just described actually happened in recent memory (for those who know history), in Europe in the 1930's. Remember that? My parents lived through that. I sure do! I'll be dead and gone by the time this sort of thing can actually unfold, but I believe chances are pretty good it might. View it as a modern parallel to the iron rule of the monarchies and the nobility over the peasant classes, a thousand years ago. Nothing new here. Sadly, enough people believe in the 'scarcity principle' today that this might actually come to pass, once again. The middle class is slowly, steadily dying.
Scarcity principle-There isn't enough to go around. Therefore, I'd better get mine at your expense and over your dead body, if necessary. Better you than me, compadre. And I'd better hoard a lot and thus create shortages, too, since times are going to be so bad. I'm a CEO, after all, I have an image to uphold. Now get out of my way, peasant scum....
"They know us better than we know ourselves". I believe you, and many others, tend to underestimate the power that comes from profiling human beings engaged in their most basic and natural behaviors- how they move, where they move, what they buy, and what they don't. And yes, to some degree, their speech.
"Trust only Movement"(Adler, famous psychologist)
OTOH I believe you overestimate how well you come to know other persons based on their personalities alone, as revealed in online personas. But in any case, a comprehensive knowledge about a person can indeed be used as a devastating weapon against that person by others of devious motive.
And you give bank account and cc info, that could really damage you, to total strangers just to avoid what you perceive as "big brother." Identity theft is real. Big Brother isn't.
Yep, identity theft can be a big problem if it happens to you. Takes years to work out from under the cloud of suspicion planted by unscrupulous others over your good name. "Big Brother" isn't quite here yet. Orwell was off in his "1984" novel's estimate by at least 50 years, but it does appear to be coming. But (little) 'big brother', his misguided predecessor, already is here. If you choose not to see that, so be it. But many do see it. So (little) 'big brother' is real. But now we're straying a little too close to current politics, so I'll leave that one alone. I hate when it gets 'political' in here. People get real nasty.Edit: The entity (little) 'big brother' is presently a number of sometimes disconnected individuals, the net effect of their actions taken all together. For example, we have a national leader in South America nationalizing the extensive oil fields developed with other peoples money, i.e. stealing their assets. Those big oil companies who got ripped off by him worked very hard stealing that money from you and me, the cheated, blindsided, sucker petro- consumers. It is you and I who will pay for those loses of the big oil companies.
...you give... info, that could really damage you, to total strangers just to avoid what you perceive as "big brother."
It is a very human trait to try to interpret other's behavior, try to divine motives, etc. But in reality, none of us are mind readers- at least I've never met one and am not a mind reader myself. You have completely misinterpreted my behavior here. That is not why I have made the choices I have made, which do differ sharply from yours. I understand your choice. It also seems entirely rational to me. But mine works a lot better for me. Your choices expose you to certain risks, my different choices expose me to a different set of risks. Choices I'm willing to make in order to keep myself out of the grasp of controlling, manipulative, and abusive middlemen. Middlemen who use fear as one of their main selling points. As for Paypal, "if the shoe fits, wear it". I think what they are doing with DoubleClick is scummy. It's an unnecessary abuse of trust which enriches their bottom line at their customers' mutual expense.Have you ever done an internet search to find web pages of the "Paypal sucks" sort? I have. I've seen more than one. Oh, the horror... It is painful to hear about how a seller, successful on Ebay and making a living off of auctions, has his funds frozen because an irate customer lies and makes mountains out of molehills- over nothing. It eventually gets ironed out, but meanwhile, this guy's monthly income is cut off. How is he going to pay his rent and buy groceries? Yikes! I have always had an instinctive distrust of unnecessary middlemen. And Paypal is totally unnecessary IMO. I prefer to deal with principals, not with middlemen.To remind you, I have had exposure of the very kind you are averse to, around 300 times on Ebay now, yet I've done very well indeed. Both as buyer and seller. Both for small items and not so small. (Only a dozen or so have involved passing credit card info- only to trustworthy businesses with good track records. I never give any one "bank account" info, ever- and I never use 'debit cards', either- only credit cards. I wouldn't own a 'debit card'. Credit cards are safer.) You never really acknowledge this, except to note that I'm in the grip of 'fear'. I seem to be doing about as well with my methods as you are with your method. Or have you gotten hurt more than me on Ebay? The extent of my losses? Two kids in MO, very early in my Ebay career- I was ripped off for 2 small personal checks for 2 different CD's which were never sent. Total losses: under 12 dollars in 8 years. And I have 100 percent positive feedback in the high 200's. Must be doing something right. I'd call my strategy a working one, just as valid as yours, no more no less. B) Edited by Cluttermagnet

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Hello,Strangely enough, I have blocked DoubleClick's hosts for several years now and never had trouble using PayPal. Perhaps this is done on a limited basis, or only when using PayPal through certain vendors?Regards,Aryeh Goretsky
Same here Aryeh. :thumbsup:The HOSTS file is your friend, so is AdBlock Plus ... I use both....no matter what OS I use.

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In Post #6 I asked Cluttermagnet what the "more anonymous search engine" was that she had found. I also mentioned Scroogle as an anonymous way of passing requests to Google. Thanks to Cluttermagnet and Patio for responding with Black Box Search (#10) and Ixquick search engine (#16). Black Box Search looks very similar in spirit to Scroogle. But there is the same question I raised about Scroogle: How do you gauge the integrity of these two? If they are less honest than Google, you might be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Do you just judge it by gut reaction, as I do with Scroogle? And while I'm at it: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."

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Good point, Eric.I doubt there are any search engines worth using that doesn't use some kind of information about the user.

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The entire idea about anonymizer search engines is that they supposedly stand as a buffer between the user and the search engine. In onother words, you use BlackBox Search to mine Google for info. The one downside is that any subsequent pages from Google, page 2,3,4 etc, are not available. If you want to dig deeper into Google's results, you have to come out from behind BlackBox and access Google directly. Then Google will serve you 100+ pages sequentially, if that's what you want.So it comes down to- does BlackBox and its kind really anonymize- of not? I bet it actually does anonymize, for all intents and purposes.Well, go on, why don't you actually try it? :D Then you'll see that it offers you buffered results from Google, Yahoo, or MSN on the BlackBox page. Blackbox is not a unique search engine, it's a buffered search results aggregator. Heh! There are other engines besides Google. Google happens to be one of the best, however- certainly one of the most successful.I generally doBlackbox > Google.BTW sorry for the lengthy rant above, guys. If you call me chicken, I'm going to split hairs with you. I prefer 'enlightenedly cautious'. Hey, is "enlightenedly" a real word?.. :D Clutter never could resist a tar baby... :hysterical:For the benefit of our friends who are unfamiliar with the term "tar baby", (quoting myself here :) ):

tar baby- A humanoid figure fashioned mostly out of tar. In the wonderful old Walt Disney movie "Song of the South" (1950's era), the character "b'rer rabbit" (brother rabbit) is pursued and harrassed by the characters b'rer fox and b'rer bear, etc. They leave a tar baby in b'rer rabbit's path. B'rer rabbit, being a chatty sort, attempts to engage the tar baby in conversation. The tar baby says nothing, having no lines. :whistling: B'rer rabbit takes offense, and socks the tar baby in the face. Now the tar baby has b'rer rabbit's hand held captive. B'rer rabbit demands that the tar baby let him go. The tar baby says nothing. B'rer rabit socks him with his free hand. Now both hands are stuck. It escalates. B'rer rabbit ends up completely coated in tar. B'rer fox and b'rer bear laugh uncontrollably...The movie also yields the memorable line "please don't throw me in that briar patch" (meaning "please do!")Also the only non-cartoon character "Uncle Remus" singing the wonderful "Zippedy Doo Dah".
Edited by Cluttermagnet

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"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
Indeed. Fear can keep you alive, it can be a good thing. Fear can be your consciousness alerting you to hazards in your surroundings, hazards which truly need to be addressed. Fear can extend your life, but too much fear can ruin your life.Balance, always balance... the "middle path" which constituted the core of the enlightenment of the Buddha...(No, I'm not Buddhist, but a couple of my friends are Buddhist writers) :)

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Good point, Eric.I doubt there are any search engines worth using that doesn't use some kind of information about the user.
True enough. That's part and parcel of the way the internet and browsers interact. But OTOH I strongly suspect that the anonymizer search front ends are not selling us out like Google, DoubleClick, Paypal, and all our other wonderful 'friends' out there. Those people would sell their own Grandmother if it suited their purposes. It's all about money... <_<I'll stick with BlackBoxSearch, the 'latex examination gloves' of the Google era... :) Edited by Cluttermagnet

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Yeah, unfortunately those anonymizer search front ends are probably at least as safe and secure as TOR has proven to be.My point is this. Google has Doubleclick which I can block. It has bad/dangerous search results that things like SiteAdvisor can notifiy me about.Blackbox I don't know from a hole in a wall.My bet is on the devil I know, rather than the devil I don't.

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Yeah, unfortunately those anonymizer search front ends are probably at least as safe and secure as TOR has proven to be.My point is this. Google has Doubleclick which I can block. It has bad/dangerous search results that things like SiteAdvisor can notifiy me about.Blackbox I don't know from a hole in a wall.My bet is on the devil I know, rather than the devil I don't.
Fascinating, bambi- thanks! Well, as I joked about earlier, BlackBox is probably run by NSA. An interesting read about tor, though. Yep, probably the more you try to anonymize, the more attention you ultimately attract. And I don't do much of that. But I do like to try to frustrate attempts at data collection in day to day communications and commerce. How well I do at that, it's hard to say. But I'm definitely allergic to those people who want to own you, in some way, whether they make OS's or just some little helper software or whatever. We live in an era where everyone wants to abuse the end user as an exploitable resource with no rights and no privacy. It's fortunate that open source doesn't suffer from that affliction, near as much.Well, y'all have been warned. Paypal isn't the sweet little company you might have once taken them for. They'll sell you out just like any other commercial company grown too big and uncaring. Bottom line- maximize revenue, all else be da**ed. Looks like they are now sharing your personal data somewhat indiscriminately. Buyer beware. I never trusted these folks and I never let them through the door in the first place. Edited by Cluttermagnet

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Clutter, don't worry... we may all have strong opinions about "hot-button" topics, but I don't think anyone intends personal affront toward you when disagreeing with what you feel. I'd be very surprised if any member at Scots personally attacked anyone for any reason. It's just not that kind of forum.Later...~Eric

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I meant no offense by my posting (which I think Clutter knew right away from his response); forgive me if it sounded like it was. I was trying to make a point in a somewhat comical (maybe it appeared more sardonic?) way. Looks like I failed miserably. My apologies. More on topic, unfortunately, in a world where we all seem to be playing with funny money (or would that be one of the less than good definitions of fiat money?) and where the value is a moving target ... Trusting any corporation or government should be heavily weighed.Sad but true.

Clutter, don't worry... we may all have strong opinions about "hot-button" topics, but I don't think anyone intends personal affront toward you when disagreeing with what you feel. I'd be very surprised if any member at Scots personally attacked anyone for any reason. It's just not that kind of forum.Later...~Eric
You are so right Eric! :hysterical:

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