Linux vs Windows

[Agent007]

First off ms isn't evil.  They are a corporation out to make a profit for their shareholders, if that is evil so is coke, sony, redhat, etc. are evil.  btw I've never understood why calling it m$ is an insult "in 20 years you turned a garage company into one of the most powerful corporations in the world, and made yourself the richest man in the world.  Neener, neener Bill Gates".Secondly linux can't do everything windows (or mac) can.  If you are a serious professional artist the gimp cannot replace photoshop (**** it can't replace paintshop pro).  There is also nothing as elegant as fireworks or dreamweaver for linux.  Sound editing is also a section where linux is lacking.  Linux has nothing to match even cool edit pro, let alone pro tools.  Also for serious office work openoffice.org (openoffice was an already registered name btw so they can't legally use just it) and star office can't do nearly as much as word or excel.  Some of the stuff I've seen done in word is impossible in oo.o and star.  oo.o and star also can't do statistics as well as excel (very popular with statitians actually).  There also aren't alternatives to some of the most popular apps on the market.  The cheap stuff you find for 20 bucks at bestbuy (like geneology software) has no real alternative on linux.  And after working a christmas season at a software store let me tell that a lot of our biggest selling stuff is that 20 buck software.  It's also a lot of trouble to get video files to play properly.Linux can do most of the stuff a mac or a pc can do, but its not as friendly (ask anyone with a 3d problem, or a modem problem, or a printer problem).  It's not that much cheaper (good linux distro is what $70 and an xp upgrade disc is only $100).  It's also less compatible.  And if (a big if here people, since they need commercial software and more full compatability to succeed) it becomes popular enough there will be virii and trojans for it.  Lastly most the linux "community" is a bunch of "rtfm" spouting wanna be guru script kiddies.Don't get me wrong I like linux.  And there are great sources of information out there (like this forum).  But when you weigh the bad and the good unless you absolutely hate windows and mac (I'd switch to mac long before I'd go full linux) don't expect to get compelling reasons to switch full time.  btw the "community"'s shouting m$ is evil does nothing but reinforce my script kiddie comments.  Attack ms at its actual weaknesses (of which there are many) but they use the fud they claim to hate.  But just like any crowd many in the linux community are hypocrits.  "m$ spies on you", no proof to that claim, but there is proof to the claim that real spies on you, yet realplayer is used by many.

Hello genaldar,As a GNU/Linux, I've never called Microsoft evil, so its not everyone in the community who shouts Microsoft is evil.If it has taken Microsoft 20yrs (may be more) to move from DOS to WinXP, how long did it take for RedHat or Mandrake to come out with very similar desktops? As far as sound-editing is concerned, the 2.6xx kernels are taking care of that! All the development going on for that series is in that front.hmmm...U are trying to compare GIMP to Photoshop which is really not fair. How long has it taken Photoshop to reach this stage? GIMP is really a new kid around the block, so give it time. Not every home user is a graphics or sound editing engineer....They check mail, surf the web etc..Even if GNU/Linux does TAKE OVER Microsoft in the Desktop market, there WILL NEVER be any VIRRI which will take down the whole OS due to the SECURE nature. So, virri are only for Windows OS's.Linux not friendly? Ask the newbies in this forum and let us know. Is scanning for Virri, Trojans, Ad-ware, malware, patching Windows Media Player, patching Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office, cleaning the registry for leftover crap, scandisk'ing drives, running defrags etc etc considered friendly?? None of these time consuming tasks are needed in GNU/Linux.$100 just for an XP upgrade disc is a heck-of-a-lot of cash!! Firstly the OS is crippled because of the fact that u NEED an older version. Secondly, how many applications do u get out of that upgrade?? The RedHat CD's came with 1400 (may be more) applications! and yes all are FREE..Manuals are bundled too. Infact, other distros bundle in a lot more. How much does one have to pay for Microsoft Office? or Photoshop or some other sound editing stuff?? How many browsers or email clients does the XP upgrade include? XP is not worthy enough to be compared to a GNU/Linux distro. There is proof to claim that Microsft's OS's are crap, yet Windows is used by many and many still vouch for it....Now, aint that funny?rgds,007

[Bruno]

Wow, 007 !Do you mind if I copy that post and hang it on the wall above my computer ? Nice text 007, from a passionate GNU/Linux user, without bashing those windows-users down.Thanks. Bruno

[Prelude76]

my $80 SuSE 8.2 came with 5 CDs and a DVD and 3 manuals.WinXP Pro is over $250 and the OEM version doesnt even have a real manual. and all on one CD that somehow takes up MORE space than a typical install of Linux.Linux comes with hundreds and hundreds of included software, even some 50+ games! microsoft comes with solitaire (ported over from version 3.1, no major updates on it since) and some cheezy internet card games and minesweep. wow, what value. i realize that Microsoft has some software that arent comparable to linux apps, but thats why i dual boot, and go to Windows only as last resort. and with development of Wine, once 90% of apps can be run under Linux, then i will dump M$ bloatware and stick to a free-based and secure system that doesnt have major privacy breaches and IE entwine throughout the OS. Read your XP agreement. you allow M$ to tap into your computer to retrieve information about you. with big brother kicking into full gear around us at airports and grocery stores and highway cameras and checkpoints, i think i'll try to fight it and a big step is to block big brother from having 100% control of my computer and internet. :angry:and i also want stability. in past year, i had to re-install XP (thats right, XP) about 4 times due to blue screen of death syndrome. its about half the rate of older windows, but still not good enough.

[bjf123]

Read your XP agreement.  you allow M$ to tap into your computer to retrieve information about you. with big brother kicking into full gear around us at airports and grocery stores and highway cameras and checkpoints, i think i'll try to fight it and a big step is to block big brother from having 100% control of my computer and internet.  :angry:and i also want stability.  in past year, i had to re-install XP (thats right, XP) about 4 times due to blue screen of death syndrome. its about half the rate of older windows, but still not good enough. 

The main reason I'm starting to play around with Linux is I don't like the direction Microsoft is heading with their software, assuming even half of what I've read is accruate, though I think some of it is a bit of "the sky is falling, the sky is falling." One problem I've never really had [knocking on wood] with Win95, 98, Me, NT, or XP is the constant BSODs I always read about. I can't remember ever having to reinstall Windows [/knocking on wood]. Maybe it's because I don't spend a lot of time tweaking and looking for the latest and greatest of everything. Buy the PC, install the programs I want, use them. Seems simple enough. Have I ever gotten a BSOD? Of course. Like it or not, Windows and Microsoft will be around for a long time, though I hope that Linux can take some of the market share away.

[Guest LilBambi]

Wow, 007 !Do you mind if I copy that post and hang it on the wall above my computer ? Nice text 007, from a passionate GNU/Linux user, without bashing those windows-users down.Thanks. Bruno

I agree Bruno!Well, done Agent007!I would like to talk a little bit about virii and various OSes including Windows, Linux/UNIX and Mac here.True viruses are pretty much a Windows thing. And email vulnerabilities are currently pretty much a Windows thing, and unfortunately that is mainly under Microsoft's own email programs.However, trojans, backdoors, and most recently specially crafted worms can attack Linux/UNIX users as well. Not many to date, mind you. And granted most are still written specifically for Windows, but there are a few at least of some more recent ones have been cross-platform, and/or hit Linux/UNIX users as well as Windows users.Now that Linux/UNIX and even Mac are becoming more popular, we can not forget that the reason these vulnerabilities are mainly written for Windows is because Windows is the most popular OS -- best bang for the buck, so to speak for 'virus' writers.As that changes, and Linux/UNIX and Mac take larger chunks of the overall computer user market, now dominated by Microsoft, we will probably begin to see a greater shift in how vulnerabilities are written as well.With ways of determining the OS someone is running, it is conceivable that a somewhat intelligent 'virus' threat could include making a determination about the OS a computer is using, and choosing the code (that they have already included) for a specific OS. Operating System tailored 'virus' threats....we have seen a few already.Also, 'virus' threats can be injected via other means that are available through many OSes, such as IRC, IMs, vulnerable ports, buffer overflows, and even webpages! We definitely need to be on our toes regardless of the OS we run.I do not think we can afford to allow ourselves the luxury of thinking Linux/UNIX or Mac are invulnerable. The best defense is a great offense. Or was that .... LOL!Just my two cents.NOTE: In this posting, the word 'virus' "in quotes" refers to any viral type viruses, worms, trojans, etc.

[Guest genaldar]

Hello genaldar,As a GNU/Linux, I've never called Microsoft evil, so its not everyone in the community who shouts Microsoft is evil.If it has taken Microsoft 20yrs (may be more) to move from DOS to WinXP, how long did it take for RedHat or Mandrake to come out with very similar desktops? As far as sound-editing is concerned, the 2.6xx kernels are taking care of that! All the development going on for that series is in that front.hmmm...U are trying to compare GIMP to Photoshop which is really not fair. How long has it taken Photoshop to reach this stage? GIMP is really a new kid around the block, so give it time. Not every home user is a graphics or sound editing engineer....They check mail, surf the web etc..Even if GNU/Linux does TAKE OVER Microsoft in the Desktop market, there WILL NEVER be any VIRRI which will take down the whole OS due to the SECURE nature. So, virri are only for Windows OS's.Linux not friendly? Ask the newbies in this forum and let us know. Is scanning for Virri, Trojans, Ad-ware, malware, patching Windows Media Player, patching Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office, cleaning the registry for leftover crap, scandisk'ing drives, running defrags etc etc considered friendly?? None of these time consuming tasks are needed in GNU/Linux.$100 just for an XP upgrade disc is a heck-of-a-lot of cash!! Firstly the OS is crippled because of the fact that u NEED an older version. Secondly, how many applications do u get out of that upgrade?? The RedHat CD's came with 1400 (may be more) applications! and yes all are FREE..Manuals are bundled too. Infact, other distros bundle in a lot more. How much does one have to pay for Microsoft Office? or Photoshop or some other sound editing stuff?? How many browsers or email clients does the XP upgrade include? XP is not worthy enough to be compared to a GNU/Linux distro. There is proof to claim that Microsft's OS's are crap, yet Windows is used by many and many still vouch for it....Now, aint that funny?rgds,007

I never said everyone in the linux community was like that, but if you spend enough time on linux boards you'll see more than a few examples of the community as I described it.Redhat and mandrake aren't coming out with any desktops, kde and gnome are. And they have shoulders to stand on. Kde started out as a copy of cde and gnome was an offshoot of that when some programmers didn't like kde's direction. Kde has been around about 8 years and gnome about 5, if I remember right.Sound editing isn't just a kernel issue, its an application issue. It doesn't matter if the kernel has the ability to be great if there are no apps that take advantage of that.I never said it was fair comparing gimp to photoshop. All I said was that photo editing is lacking on linux, which is true. If you make a living using photoshop then you have no reason to use gimp. btw I never implied everyone was a sound or graphics engineer. I was simply pointing out places where linux can't compare to windows or mac. Which is a claim someone made.Linux is only as secure as its setup. If you login as root, or give your user root privlages it can be as insecure as windows. Which means there will be virii that can take it down.Linux isn't as friendly. In kde or gnome you have to worry about 2 sets of settings. kde/gnome's and the under laying linux ones (as computerbob found out with his sound problem). Things like that are unfriendly. So is installing a driver from the command line, in windows its a double click and wait. btw linux has already had trojans and worms and if it becomes popular enough it will have spyware. As for patching all software needs patching once in a while. Look at apache, more patches last year than iis.I love your bundled applications argument. If windows includes applications its middleware and bloat. If linux does it its choice. btw how many of those 1400 applications are doubles? how many are pure crap? If you want free applications for windows you can download literally millions from the web. Lastly windows includes simple sound editing (about on par with the linux ones available) and I would say ms paint isn't that much behind gimp. If you're entire argument is prcie stick with windows and get gimp and oo.o (windows versions are available you know).Use xp (or 2k) and tell me its crap. They're easy to use, secure and stable. If you want to use personal experience I could call linux crap. Sure its stable, but add x, a window manager and a desktop environment (all of them still use an underlaying windows manager) and it becomes unstable. I had mozilla lock up x so bad I had to hit the reset button. The screwed up x so bad I had to uninstall it and reinstall it. That is not stable or user friendly is it? Windows is used because its compatable and for a long time it was stable enough. Now its compatable and stable.

[Agent007]

Wow, 007 !Do you mind if I copy that post and hang it on the wall above my computer ? Nice text 007, from a passionate GNU/Linux user, without bashing those windows-users down.Thanks. Bruno

Yo Bruno,ROTFL...Go ahead...I'll release it under GPL.. 8-)ciao.

[Agent007]

my $80 SuSE 8.2 came with 5 CDs and a DVD and 3 manuals.WinXP Pro is over $250 and the OEM version doesnt even have a real manual. and all on one CD that somehow takes up MORE space than a typical install of Linux.Linux comes with hundreds and hundreds of included software, even some 50+ games!  microsoft comes with solitaire (ported over from version 3.1, no major updates on it since) and some cheezy internet card games and minesweep.  wow, what value.  i realize that Microsoft has some software that arent comparable to linux apps, but thats why i dual boot, and go to Windows only as last resort.  and with development of Wine, once 90% of apps can be run under Linux, then i will dump M$ bloatware and stick to a free-based and secure system that doesnt have major privacy breaches and IE entwine throughout the OS.  Read your XP agreement.  you allow M$ to tap into your computer to retrieve information about you. with big brother kicking into full gear around us at airports and grocery stores and highway cameras and checkpoints, i think i'll try to fight it and a big step is to block big brother from having 100% control of my computer and internet.  :angry:and i also want stability.  in past year, i had to re-install XP (thats right, XP) about 4 times due to blue screen of death syndrome. its about half the rate of older windows, but still not good enough. 

Good points Prelude76!!!! I did'nt realise that WinXP Pro was $250+....Good thing u mentioned that.

[Agent007]

Of course.  Like it or not, Windows and Microsoft will be around for a long time, though I hope that Linux can take some of the market share away.

Yes! Let Microsoft and Windows be around for the next century even....It will be fun to c in what direction they are moving. We are really lucky, since we're actually witnessing the begining of a transition phase!

[Agent007]

With ways of determining the OS someone is running, it is conceivable that a somewhat intelligent 'virus' threat could include making a determination about the OS a computer is using, and choosing the code (that they have already included) for a specific OS. Operating System tailored 'virus' threats....we have seen a few already.Also, 'virus' threats can be injected via other means that are available through many OSes, such as IRC, IMs, vulnerable ports, buffer overflows, and even webpages! We definitely need to be on our toes regardless of the OS we run.I do not think we can afford to allow ourselves the luxury of thinking Linux/UNIX or Mac are invulnerable. The best defense is a great offense. Or was that .... LOL!Just my two cents.NOTE: In this posting, the word 'virus' "in quotes" refers to any viral type viruses, worms, trojans, etc.

Hi LilBambi,These virri topics are my favourites....so heres what I've been thinking. Firstly, lets not mix virri with Trojans, backdoors, worms etc because these are totally different things and one depends on another to actually work (atleast for UNIX & GNU/Linux based systems)...In simple terms a virus may be defined as an executable which when run from even a floppy disc or any other media executes itself and attaches its payload to other executables on the system thereby screwing up the OS. Now, the important thing to consider here is that it needs an environment to flourish. That being write access to all kinds of executable files...So, if a normal user is logged in and if he does execute a malacious payload of somekind, nothing drastic will happen since normal users dont have write access to critical system files.Also, IRC, IM's, web-browsers etc, dont run as root, so how can a system be compromised this way?I feel that, the people who are at risk are the ones running unpatched versions of sendmail, Apache, and other type of web services which normal home users dont run. Even in this case an exploit has to be run on the above services after which the cracker would install the virri. Then again, these systems do run Intrusion Detection Systems coupled with DMZ zones and what not....so they are pretty secure. If a critical system like this is not patched then script kiddies deserve to have fun!"Operating System tailored 'virus' threats" first scan the daemons or services running on the system, exploit the service, install a backdoor and then go about installing the virri. This again requires APACHE, Sendmail, Squid etc etc...What I'm trying to say is, home users can relax because they are not running Web Services, MTA's and stuff. So, the possibility of them getting infected with virri is just toooooo remote and highly unlikely..Ur thoughts and ideas welcome...ciao.Read the post-mortem of Winux here:-http://www.exocore.com/technologies/linux/winux.php

[Guest LilBambi]

Hi Agent007 --All great points!My concerns are also about ports and buffer overflow vulnerabilities that can allow rights above the general rights of a user at a given user level. New ones are found all the time and fixed as quickly as possible. But with 74.4 million users still on narrowband (14.4-56K modems) according to Nielson/NetRatings just a couple or three months ago, the updates are an added burden to users in both Windows and in Linux.Anyone who has ever been compromised by a rootkit through one of these types of buffer overflow and port vulnerabilities would bear out my concerns in this area.These types of things will continue to be explored in all OSes by virii writers and exploited because they can.But my real concern isn't whether TODAY we as Linux/UNIX, and/or Mac users are all that vulnerable.My concern is that we NOT become complacent and think we are above being hit with viral threats regardless of the type just because we are using Linux/UNIX and/or Mac.It is something we all need to be 'aware' of. That is all I am saying. We all need to be on our guard regardless of the OS we use.Thanks for your thoughts, they are all well taken.

[Agent007]

I never said everyone in the linux community was like that, but if you spend enough time on linux boards you'll see more than a few examples of the community as I described it.Redhat and mandrake aren't coming out with any desktops, kde and gnome are.  And they have shoulders to stand on.  Kde started out as a copy of cde and gnome was an offshoot of that when some programmers didn't like kde's direction.  Kde has been around about 8 years and gnome about 5, if I remember right.Sound editing isn't just a kernel issue, its an application issue.  It doesn't matter if the kernel has the ability to be great if there are no apps that take advantage of that.I never said it was fair comparing gimp to photoshop.  All I said was that photo editing is lacking on linux, which is true.  If you make a living using photoshop then you have no reason to use gimp.  btw I never implied everyone was a sound or graphics engineer.  I was simply pointing out places where linux can't compare to windows or mac.  Which is a claim someone made.Linux is only as secure as its setup.  If you login as root, or give your user root privlages it can be as insecure as windows.  Which means there will be virii that can take it down.Linux isn't as friendly.  In kde or gnome you have to worry about 2 sets of settings.  kde/gnome's and the under laying linux ones (as computerbob found out with his sound problem).  Things like that are unfriendly.  So is installing a driver from the command line, in windows its a double click and wait.  btw linux has already had trojans and worms and if it becomes popular enough it will have spyware.  As for patching all software needs patching once in a while.  Look at apache, more patches last year than iis.I love your bundled applications argument.  If windows includes applications its middleware and bloat.  If linux does it its choice.  btw how many of those 1400 applications are doubles?  how many are pure crap?  If you want free applications for windows you can download literally millions from the web.  Lastly windows includes simple sound editing (about on par with the linux ones available) and I would say ms paint isn't that much behind gimp.  If you're entire argument is prcie stick with windows and get gimp and oo.o (windows versions are available you know).Use xp (or 2k) and tell me its crap.  They're easy to use, secure and stable.  If you want to use personal experience I could call linux crap.  Sure its stable, but add x, a window manager and a desktop environment (all of them still use an underlaying windows manager) and it becomes unstable.  I had mozilla lock up x so bad I had to hit the reset button.  The screwed up x so bad I had to uninstall it and reinstall it.  That is not stable or user friendly is it?  Windows is used because its compatable and for a long time it was stable enough.  Now its compatable and stable.

I was referring to the compatibility thing..never mind that. Take a look here:-http://linux-sound.org/And why on earth would pl want to login as root??????? If anyone is foolish enough to do that, then let them pay the price.Ofcourse, KDE and GNOME will have different settings...They are both diff desktops. Thats the good part. U can choose whatever desktop env u want....If the settings were the same, then there would'nt be much choice now would there? It's not a must to use multiple desktop environments. If pl get confused, then stick to one. Simple!Can u perhaps explain to me as to where this spyware will be installed? There are no dll's and no access to executables. Also, elaborate on the trojans and worms thing. How can normal users get infected with worms?? (Dont tell me through some exploit via Apache).And what does FREE mean to u? For GNU/Linux it means having access to source code, freedom to modify/improve the code, freedom to add ur own features etc unlike proprietary software wherein upgrades usually mean patches and nothing much in terms of new features. MS Paint and GIMP????? LOL! give me a break. hmm....WinXP stable & secure u say? What was that newly found exploit? Ah yes! A malacious mp3 file could somehow screw up the system if played via Windows Media player. Installation of a .exe file via oulook express and Internet explorer, without the Users knowledge. If u come over for our LUG meeting, I'd be happy to give a demo on the so-called secure and stability u talk about with WinXP.Btw, do u have the option to remove Windows Media or Oulook Express or Internet Explorer? In GNU/Linux no one is forcing u install applications. There are options u know. Heck, if u dont want X, then get rid of it the system is still highly usable though...do that in Windows and show me.Why did Mozilla lock up? Are u sure it brought down the whole system?

[Agent007]

My concerns are also about ports and buffer overflow vulnerabilities that can allow rights above the general rights of a user at a given user level. New ones are found all the time and fixed as quickly as possible. Anyone who has ever been compromised by a rootkit through one of these types of buffer overflow and port vulnerabilities would bear out my concerns in this area.

Yes, but root-kits and buffer overflow vulnerabilities are only for web-services! How can u buffer overflow something if the service is NOT running in the first place?ciao

[Scot]

Everyone here is posting very intelligent, insightful points. All these points of view are both valid and illuminating. Many of your ideas are so far-ranging that it's easy to just get lost in thought.But ... and I'm like the school principal (who is your "pal") stepping in here for just a moment with a reminder ... please remember to be respectful of others with your tone and words. I was just passing by and I could hear you all down the hall!It's much easier for words written to be misinterpreted than for words spoken. It's the biggest shortcoming of this type of forum. (There are also advantages too, like we don't all have to be here at the same time.)So, Agent007 (love that handle) and Genaldar, game on. But please do so in a nice way.Or I'll have to grab you both by your ears and, well, what the heck do principals do, anyway?? -- Scot

[teacher]

Or I'll have to grab you both by your ears and, well, what the heck do principals do, anyway??  -- Scot

Easy answer Scot. They give you a vacation. Only they call it a suspension. You should see what the kids will do to try to get suspended.

[Rons]

Does anyone use ebay to purchase their distro's ?I have purchased Knoppix & Mandrake 9.1 for $5.00 and SuSE 8.2 PRO for $12.00 - all of which included shipping. These are copies but work great. No manuals so you need to know what your doing and are on your own for support.And since I am here.................What is a good external modem to to use with Linux? My understanding is that serial work the best over USB. I want to setup a server using SuSE 8.2 PRO to access the net and connect my XP machines to it - since XP is a sieve.

[quint]

.And since I am here.................What is a good external modem to to use with Linux? My understanding is that serial work the best over USB. I want to setup a server using SuSE 8.2 PRO to access the net and connect my XP machines to it - since XP is a sieve. 

Here's one:Zoom/Modem Mini USB Model 2990/3090, Zoom XXXX-0370-YY, Conexant SmartHCF-USB chipset (USB\VID_0572&PID_1253)and here's a lot more info:Linux modemsHappy hunting,

[Guest genaldar]

I was referring to the compatibility thing..never mind that. Take a look here:-http://linux-sound.org/And why on earth would pl want to login as root??????? If anyone is foolish enough to do that, then let them pay the price.Ofcourse, KDE and GNOME will have different settings...They are both diff desktops. Thats the good part. U can choose whatever desktop env u want....If the settings were the same, then there would'nt be much choice now would there? It's not a must to use multiple desktop environments. If pl get confused, then stick to one. Simple!Can u perhaps explain to me as to where this spyware will be installed? There are no dll's and no access to executables. Also, elaborate on the trojans and worms thing. How can normal users get infected with worms?? (Dont tell me through some exploit via Apache).And what does FREE mean to u? For GNU/Linux it means having access to source code, freedom to modify/improve the code, freedom to add ur own features etc unlike proprietary software wherein upgrades usually mean patches and nothing much in terms of new features. MS Paint and GIMP????? LOL! give me a break. hmm....WinXP stable & secure u say? What was that newly found exploit? Ah yes! A malacious mp3 file could somehow screw up the system if played via Windows Media player. Installation of a .exe file via oulook express and Internet explorer, without the Users knowledge. If u come over for our LUG meeting, I'd be happy to give a demo on the so-called secure and stability u talk about with WinXP.Btw, do u have the option to remove Windows Media or Oulook Express or Internet Explorer? In GNU/Linux no one is forcing u install applications. There are options u know. Heck, if u dont want X, then get rid of it the system is still highly usable though...do that in Windows and show me.Why did Mozilla lock up? Are u sure it brought down the whole system?

Everyone occasionally has to log in as root. Granted during that time they should do what they logged into root for and get out, but thats still relying on the users. As a friend of mine says no computer is secure as long as people are using it.Kde and gnome having different settings isn't a good thing. If you have to adjust 2 different volume controls (a "linux" one and a "de" one) then its a hassle and isn't user friendly. Should they have their own controls? yes, but for the love of zip drives have them integrate better into the system.Spyware can be installed along with any application. Look at gator, on the surface its a web form filler (or whatever) but it also tracks your movement. Anytime its running it tracks where you're going. Do the same thing in linux, like make a download manager and the entire time its running it just keeps track of where you're going.Free means no cost. The gpl doesn't guarantee that, it just provides for access to the source, which most people don't care about since most aren't programmers. Its nice for the people who do program, but I doubt someone who just surfs the web and emails as you put it earlier cares if they can rewrite sections of the code. As for the gimp and ms paint granted I was a little off the mark, but to even hold up the gimp when talking about photo editing is insane. Its closer in features to ms paint then it is to photoshop or paintshop pro.I keep hearing people say how insecure windows is, but I don't know anyone who's been hit by one of the exploits. Do they exist? Yes, but are they as exploited as much as some would have you believe? No. The exploits are usually corrected in very short order after discovery so with automatic update it can be a non issue. Besides having running an anti-virus program with script blocking will prevent most of them even before the patch. no thanks for the invite to the lug btw.I can remove outlook express (never installed it in xp) and windows media player. You can also disable ie. As for going back to the command line that really isn't feasable for most people. Visual learning is the most common learning method, which is why the gui has helped make computers more useable.Mozilla locked up because it ran into java it had run dozens of times before. I was running nothing else, it just locked up. I don't know if it brought down the whole system, but since the gui was locked up and I couldn't get to a command line I'll assume the entire system locked. X wouldn't even restart.

[Agent007]

Everyone occasionally has to log in as root. Granted during that time they should do what they logged into root for and get out, but thats still relying on the users. As a friend of mine says no computer is secure as long as people are using it.

This is a different case alltogether. Under normal usage, virri cannot bring down the system...and yes no headache of creating ACL policies.

Kde and gnome having different settings isn't a good thing. If you have to adjust 2 different volume controls (a "linux" one and a "de" one) then its a hassle and isn't user friendly. Should they have their own controls? yes, but for the love of zip drives have them integrate better into the system.

As I mentioned in my last post....if pl get confused, stick to ONE desktop. KDE and GNOME should never be integrated...That would kill the alternatives.

Spyware can be installed along with any application. Look at gator, on the surface its a web form filler (or whatever) but it also tracks your movement. Anytime its running it tracks where you're going. Do the same thing in linux, like make a download manager and the entire time its running it just keeps track of where you're going.

Does anyone have the source code to Gator?? If u can give me the source, I will remove the spyware and release it back. U cannot compare Gator to GNU/Linux software. Getting access to source code is the important thing. If someone finds spyware in GNU/Linux it will be removed immediately and the re-packaged. The issue of spyware, malware and all this garbage is only tied up with proprietary software wherein one has absolutely no idea of what the code looks like. (Reverse Engg does'nt always yield results)

The gpl doesn't guarantee that, it just provides for access to the source, which most people don't care about since most aren't programmers.

Those who do know how to program, will scan for bugs remove Spyware etc if any and release it back...

I keep hearing people say how insecure windows is, but I don't know anyone who's been hit by one of the exploits. 

If that was the case, then there would'nt be need for anti-virus or Trojan cleaners or script blocking apps wasting CPU cycles now would there? Just because these things are a 'defacto' for Windows, AV companies should not try to make this as a must-have for GNU/Linux users. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I can remove outlook express (never installed it in xp) and windows media player. You can also disable ie. As for going back to the command line that really isn't feasable for most people. Visual learning is the most common learning method, which is why the gui has helped make computers more useable.

Can u remove OE and Media player via the Add-Remove app in the control panel? From this thread, http://www.scotsnewsletter.com/forums/inde...4&hl=disable+iehttp://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article03-001has a third party tool to get rid of IE for Win98....Does'nt seem to be the normal transparent way of getting rid of an app. Unless of course, some users find it to be a more simplistic approach.Ofcourse Visual Learning is imp, but u made a reference of applications bundled with GNU/Linux to bloatware....Thats why I recommended the removal of X to make a point of the flexibility and ease of removal!

[zox]

Wow, I don't know how I missed this thread :)Healthy discussion without pissing off our principal :DOK, genaldar since you are pointing huge difference between Gimp and Photoshop or Paintshop pro, can your open my eyes little and explain the difference between these?I am Linux newbie starter and would like to know all the difference there is.Thank you.

[Guest LilBambi]

Actually, except for the Interface, which is very different, there isn't much you can't do in the Gimp that you can do in Photoshop (there are a few, but not many) . And it also adds some things you don't see in most photo editing programs, and from what I understand even does a few that even photoshop doesn't do. Each program, whether it is in Windows or Linux has their pluses and minuses, but that doesn't mean they are not good programs.I think the differences in the Interface is what throws some folks off, it appears so simple, and it looks like it doesn't do much on the face of it, but don't be put off by that, it is extremely powerful. Just don't expect to get things done in the same way you do in Photoshop. It was not created to emulate photoshop's look and feel.You just have to take the time to learn how all these wonderful things are done in the Gimp.Many of the best things that can be done in Photoshop are not something you will just know out of the box, but there are many places all over the Internet to learn new ways of doing absolutely amazing things in Photoshop. Photoshop is an outstanding program. But so is the Gimp.

[Bruno]

Here is a good link for learning The Gimp:http://mmmaybe.gimp.org/tutorials/ bruno

[Guest LilBambi]

Here is a good link for learning The Gimp:http://mmmaybe.gimp.org/tutorials/   bruno

Bruno --Very nice tutorial! Boy, I wish I had seen that back when I was learning it! ;)Probably be able to teach me a few things I hadn't thought of yet! Bookmarked!

[Prelude76]

as I started this thread, let me make one point: I didnt mean it to be Linux vs Windows, mono e mono slugfest i started this post when i was a 100% windows user (actually Win98/XP dual booter, because IMO, win98 is superior to XP in some areas, namely boot speed and playing DOS games, but thats a whole other area).i wanted to see why people use Linux when Linux doesn't have all the things I'm used to in Windows, such as Paint Shop Pro, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, easy-to-play DiVX movies, etc... And I got enough opinions that I tried to install SuSE 8.2 myself (and so far, I love it. I'm using it right now). I'll probably keep dual-booting with Windows because there's still some things I prefer and can't live without, namely my programs I listed above, but for documents, emailing, surfing, I can see myself using Linux more and more. I dont know if it's because it's got a new-car feel to it (i'm sick of staring at START button) or 'feels' safer from crashes and viruses. Something about it keeps drawing me into it more and more.But the truth is, Windows won't go away, Linux will never (not in its current form) become mainstream, and even if it did, it would lead some folks who hate mainstream to try other OSes. So it really doesnt matter which you prefer, because just like the AMD vs Pentium battle, it just simply helps having a choice in OSes to prevent the guy at the top with the monopoly from ruining things 100% their way.Whether one is better at this and one is better at that, it really doesnt matter. This post was just meant to ask a simple question: why people use Linux if Windows does everything too, and the answer is simple: choice.so peace, and go kiss your mother. it's Mother's day after all.

[Guest LilBambi]

Prelude76 --I hear ya! And thankfully there are many choices today! Life is good.

[Rons]

I can't kiss my mother - she won't talk to me anymore ever since she switched to Linux !!! LOLJust kidding.....................

[Guest ThunderRiver]

Prelude76 made a nice point about Windows and Linux. No matter how inferior Windows is to Linux (or the other way around), both of them will exist because people need them for a different number of things. Of course, things you can accomplish in Windows can also be done in Linux, but it takes longer, so if I just want to get my work done, why do I bother to wait?As for Virus problem, I don't think that's anything really major, and as far as I have experienced so far, Linux is as much likely being attacked and taken over as it is with Windows. A number of BSD/Linux users actually use root on daily basis (for their own convenience!), and that's pretty much the same as running as Administrator in Windows. What makes things more complicated is that Windows is more integrated (whereas Linux is more modular), so that virus can rely on ActiveX to get into your system. Nonetheless, I find Linux patching system not as advanced as Windows Update, and the only thing that can match up with it is BSD ports system.It is not true that Linux is more stable than Windows although it generally lasts longer than Windows. It all depends on the distro you use. I tend to find Red Hat/Mandrake less stable than BSD/SuSe/Gentoo Linux. I don't feel it is right to say that Linux/BSD is surperior to Windows all the way since like I mentioned before, people's needs come first. Which ever they choose to get their work done fast and efficient would be his/her choice. Nonetheless, my suggestion is to stay in both world, which will benefit you the most..

[Guest genaldar]

Everyone occasionally has to log in as root. Granted during that time they should do what they logged into root for and get out, but thats still relying on the users. As a friend of mine says no computer is secure as long as people are using it.

This is a different case alltogether. Under normal usage, virri cannot bring down the system...and yes no headache of creating ACL policies.

Kde and gnome having different settings isn't a good thing. If you have to adjust 2 different volume controls (a "linux" one and a "de" one) then its a hassle and isn't user friendly. Should they have their own controls? yes, but for the love of zip drives have them integrate better into the system.

As I mentioned in my last post....if pl get confused, stick to ONE desktop. KDE and GNOME should never be integrated...That would kill the alternatives.

Spyware can be installed along with any application. Look at gator, on the surface its a web form filler (or whatever) but it also tracks your movement. Anytime its running it tracks where you're going. Do the same thing in linux, like make a download manager and the entire time its running it just keeps track of where you're going.

Does anyone have the source code to Gator?? If u can give me the source, I will remove the spyware and release it back. U cannot compare Gator to GNU/Linux software. Getting access to source code is the important thing. If someone finds spyware in GNU/Linux it will be removed immediately and the re-packaged. The issue of spyware, malware and all this garbage is only tied up with proprietary software wherein one has absolutely no idea of what the code looks like. (Reverse Engg does'nt always yield results)

The gpl doesn't guarantee that, it just provides for access to the source, which most people don't care about since most aren't programmers.

Those who do know how to program, will scan for bugs remove Spyware etc if any and release it back...

I keep hearing people say how insecure windows is, but I don't know anyone who's been hit by one of the exploits. 

If that was the case, then there would'nt be need for anti-virus or Trojan cleaners or script blocking apps wasting CPU cycles now would there? Just because these things are a 'defacto' for Windows, AV companies should not try to make this as a must-have for GNU/Linux users. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I can remove outlook express (never installed it in xp) and windows media player. You can also disable ie. As for going back to the command line that really isn't feasable for most people. Visual learning is the most common learning method, which is why the gui has helped make computers more useable.

Can u remove OE and Media player via the Add-Remove app in the control panel? From this thread, http://www.scotsnewsletter.com/forums/inde...4&hl=disable+iehttp://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/article03-001has a third party tool to get rid of IE for Win98....Does'nt seem to be the normal transparent way of getting rid of an app. Unless of course, some users find it to be a more simplistic approach.Ofcourse Visual Learning is imp, but u made a reference of applications bundled with GNU/Linux to bloatware....Thats why I recommended the removal of X to make a point of the flexibility and ease of removal!

You said no virii were possible, but they are. Which was my point.I think you're missing my point about integrating kde and gnome. I don't want to integrated them with each other, only with the underlaying code. Using the mixer example, adjust the kde mixer would do the same thing to the linux mixer. It wouldn't touch the gnome mixer at all.I never compared gator to gpl software. It is possible for something to be released under a non gpl liscense for linux. If that closed program contained spyware the fact that it's on linux wouldn't help at all. btw the argument I'm assuming you'll use next which is people using linux are too savy to use something either closed source or containing spyware (or something to that effect) realize I'm talking about if linux because more widespread. The same people getting duped into gator or alexa or whatever would be using linux and finding the same types of spying programs popping up there.Relying on others to scan for bugs and spyware is different from relying on ms how? With ms you have a company that is trying to keep enough of its customers to stay in business. With people programming in their free time they have no reason to remove bugs and spyware. If their actual job makes them busy guess what? you're stuck with buggy or spyware ridden code. Or its possible someone with no coding talent at all will try and fix the problem. Only making it worse, or breaking something else. Either way 99% of users will always rely on others to do their coding. Which is why most average users aren't moving to linux. Linux's main draw, its open source roots, mean nothing to those people.I've been running antivirus programs since I got my first computer almost 5 years ago. Doing things no one should do (running random programs, downloading random pictures and music files, etc.). Guess how many viruses I've gotten? Zero. Guess how many times my computer has been exploited? Right again Zero. Granted I've been lucky, but up until now my precations have been just that, precautions. The truth is with billions of computers on the internet a specific computer would really have to stick out to be tagged by a cracker. Even then it would have to have exploits that specific cracker new how to use.Yes you can remove outlook express and media player using the add/remove control panel app, at least in 2k and xp. On the left side of that panel is an icon marked Add/Remove windows components. Go there and remove them. You can also remove windows messenger there (yet another ms product I don't use in windows).I agree linux can be very flexible, but it can also be very rigid. If you get rid of x you also can't use kde, gnome, icewm, xfce, etc. It's not like all components are independent of each other.

[Guest genaldar]

Someone asked about the differences between photshop and the gimp. I can't list many because I don't use photoshop for any hardcore photoediting. A couple of my buddies are profesionals though so they use it a lot. One of them uses linux for his servers. I dropped the linux user a line about what some of the main differences are, but I haven't heard back yet. Once I do I'll add them.One of the main differences I noticed was that gimp can't do some of the effects photoshop can. Especially if you own a couple of effects packages for photoshop. It is also slower. I ran some speed tests when I dual booted because I had heard the gimp was faster. But it was slower on resizing, saving to a different format and cropping. Much slower on cropping actually. The tests were of course run on the same files (for the gimp tests I copied the files I used to my linux partition) on the same computer. I didn't include the time it took for me to find the function in gimp, only the time to execute the function.

[Agent007]

As for Virus problem, I don't think that's anything really major, and as far as I have experienced so far, Linux is as much likely being attacked and taken over as it is with Windows. A number of BSD/Linux users actually use root on daily basis (for their own convenience!), and that's pretty much the same as running as Administrator in Windows. What makes things more complicated is that Windows is more integrated (whereas Linux is more modular), so that virus can rely on ActiveX to get into your system. Nonetheless, I find Linux patching system not as advanced as Windows Update, and the only thing that can match up with it is BSD ports system.It is not true that Linux is more stable than Windows although it generally lasts longer than Windows. It all depends on the distro you use. I tend to find Red Hat/Mandrake less stable than BSD/SuSe/Gentoo Linux. I don't feel it is right to say that Linux/BSD is surperior to Windows all the way since like I mentioned before, people's needs come first. Which ever they choose to get their work done fast and efficient would be his/her choice. Nonetheless, my suggestion is to stay in both world, which will benefit you the most..

Logging in as r00t is really a bad thing to do......Such users are just inviting trouble and then will blame the OS when the underlying fact is they dont know how to use it.....Can u elaborate on how RedHat is less stable....