Linux vs Windows

[Agent007]

I never compared gator to gpl software.  It is possible for something to be released under a non gpl liscense for linux.  If that closed program contained spyware the fact that it's on linux wouldn't help at all.  btw the argument I'm assuming you'll use next which is people using linux are too savy to use something either closed source or containing spyware (or something to that effect) realize I'm talking about if linux because more widespread.  The same people getting duped into gator or alexa or whatever would be using linux and finding the same types of spying programs popping up there.Relying on others to scan for bugs and spyware is different from relying on ms how?  With ms you have a company that is trying to keep enough of its customers to stay in business.  With people programming in their free time they have no reason to remove bugs and spyware.  If their actual job makes them busy guess what?  you're stuck with buggy or spyware ridden code.  Or its possible someone with no coding talent at all will try and fix the problem.  Only making it worse, or breaking something else.  Either way 99% of users will always rely on others to do their coding.  Which is why most average users aren't moving to linux.  Linux's main draw, its open source roots, mean nothing to those people.I've been running antivirus programs since I got my first computer almost 5 years ago.  Doing things no one should do (running random programs, downloading random pictures and music files, etc.).  Guess how many viruses I've gotten?  Zero.  Guess how many times my computer has been exploited?  Right again Zero.  Granted I've been lucky, but up until now my precations have been just that, precautions.  The truth is with billions of computers on the internet a specific computer would really have to stick out to be tagged by a cracker.  Even then it would have to have exploits that specific cracker new how to use.

Tell u what.. Lets wait for the spyware and virri to be released for GNU/Linux. If MS was doing such a gr8 job, no one would have bothered to make the switch.

[Agent007]

hi all,I really fail to understand as to how some people claim that Windows is stable. After installing applications there is a significant decrease in the performance and frequent reboots become necessary (atleast what I experienced when troubleshooting so many Windows Pc's). Coupled with this there are also memory leaks and apps refuse to make available the used up memory after exiting. That is why I guess there are so many memory defraggers etc. Sometimes, just closing an app results in an illegal operation or a BSOD. Running multiple apps results in bringing the OS down to its knees, again resulting in a cold reboot. Overwritten system files with other versions is another story alltogether. The other day I patched MS Office and Outlook Express went south. Finally the suite had to be reinstalled and OE was OK, but not without illegal operations.On my system (RedHat 9), I've got APACHE, Sendmail, web-content filtering, PHP etc running full time as daemons. Office apps, Browsers, E-mail clients, instant messaging are constantly in use. Sometimes mp3-conversion and CD burning goes on in another X session. The system has never crashed for the past one week and the uptime is amazing. I've run every heavy weight app possible to c if a reboot was required but no.Am I missing something when pl say that Windows is stable?

[Prelude76]

hey guys, ya know who i'm talking about. let's not get too off base. we could argue one vs other until cows come home but it's like comparing American vs Japanese cars (and everyone knows Jap cars are better )but seriously, i'm a Linux newbie, and a longtime Windows user (since good ol' 3.0) and this back and forth arguing doesn't help anyone else reading this board. To say viruses are rare in Windows because you personally never had any, or to say viruses can't hit linux because you've personally never seen one doesnt mean its all impossible.i'm just speaking from my own experience, not from tech journals or editorials. from my own experience (XP ), i've had to re-load XP 4 times this past year due to severe system instability, one of which was caused by a backdoor virus that slam dunked my XP system. then again, i do lots of system tweaking, load many applications, and run some P2P programs that probably aren't too good for my PC health, but i'm also quite careful, running NAV and ZoneAlarm. I decided to try Linux for myself. Though it's a LOT easier than I thought it'd be, mostly due to recent KDE 3.1 innovations, its still not easier than windows in areas like hardware setup and general file managing. But i did not get it to get an easier OS. In fact, part of reason i'm shying away from WinXP is their strong emphasis on PC newbies vs tweakers. Perfect example, Outlook XPs automatic blocking of inline images in email, just for safety sake. I mean, whats harm in making it an OPTION?Whether one OS is better than other is not the question. I'm just trying out Linux to see how it fits my personal computer needs. I want to check email, read web, do some documents, and other things like that. What i don't want to do is to reload an OS every season. I'm so sick of that. And if i have to do it too in Linux further down the road, I won't be too happy with Linux either. But I thought i'd try it out myself.so folks, let's try to wind down and tone down this post, as my question was already answered and wasn't meant as a Penguin vs MSN Butterfly smackdown match.

[Guest LilBambi]

Yes, let's do try to keep this civil before the principal has to come in here again. ;)I know folks have strong opinions on this subject, but a little forethought on how strong words can appear in print, as opposed to how they might come across when speaking them, might be a very good thing.Remember that many folks are trying to make intelligent decisions for themselves on this subject so a little objectivity would be very helpful.NOTE: In the course of presenting a case for one OS, it is not necessary or desired to bash other OSes.To paraphrase a Firesign Theatre skit: "Keep it sweet ..."

[Guest genaldar]

hi all,I really fail to understand as to how some people claim that Windows is stable. After installing applications there is a significant decrease in the performance and frequent reboots become necessary (atleast what I experienced when troubleshooting so many Windows Pc's). Coupled with this there are also memory leaks and apps refuse to make available the used up memory after exiting. That is why I guess there are so many memory defraggers etc. Sometimes, just closing an app results in an illegal operation or a BSOD. Running multiple apps results in bringing the OS down to its knees, again resulting in a cold reboot. Overwritten system files with other versions is another story alltogether. The other day I patched MS Office and Outlook Express went south. Finally the suite had to be reinstalled and OE was OK, but not without illegal operations.On my system (RedHat 9), I've got APACHE, Sendmail, web-content filtering, PHP etc running full time as daemons. Office apps, Browsers, E-mail clients, instant messaging are constantly in use. Sometimes mp3-conversion and  CD burning goes on in another X session. The system has never crashed for the past one week and the uptime is amazing. I've run every heavy weight app possible to c if a reboot was required but no.Am I missing something when pl say that Windows is stable?

You can't use just personal experience. Its a flawed method. But here goes;Windows is stable. Xp hasn't crashed in the 6 weeks I've been using it (I was a slow convert), and 2k only crashed twice in over a year (bad nvidia driver both times). btw from your experience I can tell you're using 9x. 2k and xp don't have nearly the same level of problems as 9x. I run a lot of apps at once, some very processor intensive, but I haven't brought 2k or xp to its knees. I also haven't experienced memory leaks or any of the other problems you mentioned. As for uptime xp has only been down long enough for me to physically move my computer back from school. Then again to install a new power supply. other than that it's been up for the entire time its been installed.You aren't missing anything, you're just going on personal experience. My personal experience is that x is so unstable it crashes constantly (the longest I could could any of the various versions of linux I've run up is 4 hours). So unstable that it destroyed itself in my one example. But I don't call it unstable, because I know the problems are probably caused by myself. Linux (or windows) is only as stable as its set up to be. If its set up really badly it'll crash constantly. If it's set up properly its almost trouble free.btw memory leaks would be the problems of individual programs, not the os. Just like you said you can't blame linux for x, you shouldn't blame windows for eudora (or any of the other programs notorious for memory leaks). Especially since most of those programs aren't ms and they aren't key components to the operationg system or the gui. Besides memory leaks are mostly a moot point since 2k came out 4 years ago. You remember 4 years ago, when you needed over a hundred floppies to install linux downloaded from vendor websites. Or when mounting cd roms required either a command line command or a shortcut running that command.

[Guest genaldar]

Tell u what.. Lets wait for the spyware and virri to be released for GNU/Linux. If MS was doing such a gr8 job, no one would have bothered to make the switch.

If ms was doing as bad of a job as some would say then why oh why don't more people switch to linux? Articles have been done in major magazines and newspapers (wall street journel, washington post, LA times) and IBM is using linux in advertising. Plus it gets mentioned a ton on the internet. So the old argument of it doesn't have the exposure doesn't hold true (**** walmart sells linux computers). The reason more people aren't switching is because windows works better for them. Assuming linux would work better for them, just because it works better for you is arrogance. And its that arrogance that is plaguing the linux community like I said earlier (how many times have you said rtfm? when some newb asked for help, or rubbed you the wrong way?).btw once linux is used by more than 1 percent of the computers in the world it might be attractive enough to be the target or viruses and spyware, until then its a niche market mostly used on servers and by technocrats. Or cheapskates. Which is why so many linux "advocates" have never paid for their distro of choice.I know this will be badly received, but I don't care. I've tried to be civil, but agent just won't accept that linux isn't perfect and maybe, just maybe, windows isn't crap.MSN and it's butterfly on the otherhand are crap and I think I'll cry myself to sleep since I'm pretty sure I was compared to that multicolored monstrosity.

[Agent007]

In the best interests of the forum, I'll not reply further........

[Prelude76]

genaldar: I'm just guessing, but did all your Linux crashes (every 4 hours or less) result from broken dependencies? Try SuSE 8.2, if I may suggest. When installing a program, it autocheck all and every dependency needed. And if you try to uninstall a program that might break 27 other programs, it warns you of every program it will affect. It might've made your Linux experience somewhat more stable and therefore enjoyable. But just don't take it the wrong way when people speak of their personal experience. I'm glad you have a good stable setup going in 2K and XP. Others did not, myself included. I'm not bashing** it was probably my fault for wrong driver or system application loaded, but the randomness of the crashes really is what go me to try out Linux. Would I ever try out Slackware or some other advanced and hard to setup distro? Probably not. But to throw all distros into one pile and say they are all way too tricky to 'make stable' is a bit unfair. And to say 2K and XP are far more stable is not everyone;s opinion. My brother is bringing his XP box to my place this weekend because Postal 2 game keeps locking up with some sort of DirectX error message every single time, and he installed the latest DirectX 9.1. On the other hand, Stryder had trouble getting his network card loaded in the newest Mandrake 9.1. Most issuses can be resolved for both OSes, but I don't think comparing which is more stable helps this discussion much, because as you said, its very subjective (my XP crashes; my XP is rock solid). And maybe just 1% of people use linux 100% of time (like Bruno and Agent) but judging by this forum, maybe 10% to 20% of people are dual-booting and seeing for themselves which is better, for their perticular tasks. Thats exactly what I'm doing, btw. And if you see Microsoft go a lot further with Palladium (see other thread) and more privacy invasion, you may see that full time 1% linux users skyrocket at least past the Mac population out there. thread closed - everyone shake hands p.s.- sorry for comparing you to that dreaded MSN butterfly. it was a low blow

[Guest genaldar]

I have no idea why linux kept crashing on me. Sometimes mozilla would crash. So I'd try galeon or konq or opera, and it would still crash. It also crashed while I was just using k office or openoffice.org or abiword. It would crash in gnome, kde and icewm. I would like to clarify though, that the longest it stayed up was five hours. I went back and checked my logs and a couple of times it was up for 5. Also most of the crashes came while I was using mandrake 9.0, which was a buggy version. I never uninstalled anything. And the only programs I added from the net was gaim. And the only reason I added that was because the one that shipped with the disto required an older library not available on the cds (when I found out that was the problem I laughed so hard I almost wet myself).I think your estimate of 10-20% is wrong Prelude. This forum may have a lot of people actively talking about trying linux, but even that number isn't near 10% of the members. Plus you have to assume most members of this forum are a little more computer savy than the masses. I will concede that more than 1% of users use linux occasionally but I doubt its even near 5% that use it regularly.No hard feelings about the butterfly remark, you yellow aol dude.btw good luck with postal 2, those budget games can be a major pain to get running properly.