Mike Healan Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Not EVERYTHING will be incompatible with Longhorn... It's just a matter of getting new drivers written for the currently existing hardware (Same thing that occurred with Win2k)... No big deal here...A lot (most probably) of the drivers for things that had all sorts of nice options and features in the Windows 2000 and lower versions had bare, utilitarian drivers for XP. Printers were especially bad. My own $300 printer/scanner/copier lost, among other things, the ability to print two-sided pages when I upgraded my old computer from ME.Printer and other hardware makers refused to write proper XP drivers, and instead pointed helpless customers at new $300 and $400 models made for XP. When Longhorn happens, they'll do the same thing.As far as stability, sneeze in your computer's general direction, and you'll crash Windows ME. 98SE was a little better, but not by much. XP and XP sp1 are extremely stable. It's more stable than 2000 sp3 that I have on this new machine. I'm not going to try sp4, because I'm going to upgrade back to XP as soon as I finish a few projects.I will not be using Longhorn on my personal machine. Considering what I do, I can't avoid using it, no matter how much I'd like to, but it will be a test machine only. I will not expose files on my personal computer to TCPA and Palladium. As soon as Mandrake 9.2 comes out next month, I'm repartitioning this thing (or maybe just getting a larger HDD) and putting it on. My days as a Windows drone will be over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 The bottom line is that if you stick with Win98 and continue to resist upgrading, you'll find yourself more and more isolated from what is going on in the mainstream. If you have problems, there won't be many who you can turn to for help. Other people will be messing around with video editing, online music, intensive gaming, wi-fi, mobile communications, ubiquitous computing and so on while you will be left only able to play with email and cruise the web. Video Editing: Who says there's no video editing software available for Windows 98?Online Music: Windows 98 has plenty of available pluggins for online streaming musinc (RealPlayer, Windows Media, QuickTime, etc.)Intensive gaming: who cares? Computers are for work Wi-Fi: Uh, uh. There are plenty of Wi-fi cards with drivers available for Windows 98Mobile communications: Same as Wi-fiUbiquitous Computing: OK, so VPC doesn't support Windows 98 as the host system. If I need it, I'll upgrade to Win2k.You can I do a lot more than just e-mail and web browsing with Windows 98. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent007 Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 What I am wondering is this, what is the primary need to upgrade to Longhorn? Is flipping windows upside down a much needed feature? Why can't Microsoft continue to work on Windows XP and add the filesystem to XP?Whats so special in dock? Isint it just another toolbar that could be added to XP or Win2K? Also, why does MS have to copy all this stuff from Apple? Mac OS X uses this dock too...007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 What I am wondering is this, what is the primary need to upgrade to Longhorn? So Micro$oft can make more money, apparently.Is flipping windows upside down a much needed feature?No.Why can't Microsoft continue to work on Windows XP and add the filesystem to XP?Because they're Microsoft. Enough said Whats so special in dock? Nothing. It's ugly, and it takes up way too much desktop space that could otherwise be used more practically for applications.Isint it just another toolbar that could be added to XP or Win2K?Yup.Also, why does MS have to copy all this stuff from Apple?They're not creative enough to come up with their own ideas :lol:They've always copied Apple. Always have, always will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibe98765 Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 What I am wondering is this, what is the primary need to upgrade to Longhorn? Is flipping windows upside down a much needed feature? Why can't Microsoft continue to work on Windows XP and add the filesystem to XP?Whats so special in dock? Isint it just another toolbar that could be added to XP or Win2K? Also, why does MS have to copy all this stuff from Apple? Mac OS X uses this dock too...007Because, AGAIN, MS like everyone else, is a business and needs to sell new products to keep revenues growing. Adding a new file system to an existing OS isn't going to generate new revenues and may not even be possible or feasible due to design constrints. Two, the code base for XP isn't perfect. I'm sure they are making a lot of other changes under the hood to increase security and further improve stability. How do they pay for this development effort if they don't get you to buy something new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibe98765 Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 The bottom line is that if you stick with Win98 and continue to resist upgrading, you'll find yourself more and more isolated from what is going on in the mainstream. If you have problems, there won't be many who you can turn to for help. Other people will be messing around with video editing, online music, intensive gaming, wi-fi, mobile communications, ubiquitous computing and so on while you will be left only able to play with email and cruise the web. Video Editing: Who says there's no video editing software available for Windows 98?Online Music: Windows 98 has plenty of available pluggins for online streaming musinc (RealPlayer, Windows Media, QuickTime, etc.)Intensive gaming: who cares? Computers are for work Wi-Fi: Uh, uh. There are plenty of Wi-fi cards with drivers available for Windows 98Mobile communications: Same as Wi-fiUbiquitous Computing: OK, so VPC doesn't support Windows 98 as the host system. If I need it, I'll upgrade to Win2k.You can I do a lot more than just e-mail and web browsing with Windows 98. Oh please. I've used Win98 for years on a variety of a machines and it sucks. The problems with resource utilization and stability are only the tip of the 'berg. Internal processing and performance is slower than current modern OS's and you have to limit the number of applications you try to run at any one time. Sure, with careful tuning, regular reboots and a lot of work, you can make Win98 run acceptably. Problem is, most people don't have the expertise to do that. I don't want to waste my time massaging a system when I could be doing something useful instead. Personally, I think MS made a huge mistake in continuing to support Win98 through Jan 2004 (or is it June?). They should have dumped support at least a year ago. Only by doing so will they force corporate laggards to upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibe98765 Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 If you have a decent machine, you can run Win98SE quite smoothly while multi-tasking. I run it on an AMD Athlon 1300+ with 512 MB RAM, a 5400 RPM 10 GB HDD, 64 MB VGA card. Being a web developer, I obviously use more than just office suites. Is it that big of a deal to have to reboot a couple times a day? Windows 98 takes less than 30 seconds to start up on my machine. I'm not gong to spend an extra $300 for a new OS just so that I can save 2 minutes per day on productivity.Yes, it is a big deal to reboot a couple of times a day. One, if it a forced reboot due to the system crashing on you or slowing down so much that it becomes unusable, you may lose open and active work, which will have to be recreated. Two, in this situation, you also lose your focus and train of thought and have to start whatever you were doing all over again. In the job I was in previously, a reboot would take closer to 10 minutes to complete, including all logon scripts and initializations of client side software that need to run for connectivity to network resources.I was part of the sales group. I'd say that on average, most everyone rebooted daily when they came into the office and most had 2-3 unanticipated crashes a week. People were always complaining about poor stability and lost work. Let's also include lost focus time and do an ROI based on 90 minutes of lost productivity in a week per person. How many prospect contacts did I lose in 90 minutes a week? How much potential revenue was lost to the company?Multiply 90 minutes by 50 weeks and you get 4500 lost minutes per year. Divide by 60 to get 75 lost hours. Assume, for the sake of this discussion, your typical user's fully burdened cost to the company is $1000 weekly (40 hour week, includes benefits and vacation). Well, you've lost close to $2000 per employee yearly! Now let's say I'm off by 50% and the lost cost is closer to $1000 per year. That's still twice what you might pay for a new system in bulk with a new OS. And that's the one year, one-time cost on say a 3 year lifespan. Let's see now - I can spend $500 on making employees happier and more productive and I'll get between $2500-$5000 net productivity gain (assuming the time gained goes to work projects) over 3 years or I can just save the cash outlay, put my hands over my eyes and pretend that everything is OK. DOH! btw: There are also tax deductions tha make the real cost of new hardware/software even less for businesses of any size. For instance, a special additional 30% (or is 40%?) deduction on capital equipment costs was put into place after the 9/11 incident. This special extra extends through 2004. Check with your accountant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 Yes, it is a big deal to reboot a couple of times a day....OK, obviously we have a difference in opinions here.You may see rebooting 2 -3 times/day as a problem, because you obviously have a different corporate environment. Those types of environments should be running more business-geared OS versions, like NT/2000/XP. Whereas, I, working from a home office, don't see rebooting as much of a big deal. So I lose 30 seconds every 5 hours. Boo hoo.If you strategically time when you're going to reboot (like going for lunch, for example), you're not going to lose any time, because you had a reason to stop or pause your work anyway. Rarely am I ever forced to reboot because of a problem or error....Sure, with careful tuning, regular reboots and a lot of work, you can make Win98 run acceptably........I don't want to waste my time massaging a system when I could be doing something useful instead.There is a level of "massaging" that you have to do with every piece of software to make it work exactly how you want -- even Windows XP needs several settings changed and some fine tuning to get it working how I want it (yes, I've used Windows XP before on my machine before, so I speak from experience, not guessing)...Problem is, most people don't have the expertise to do that....Generally, the people who don't have those kinds of expertise just accept what they are given in an OS because they really don't care. To them it's "just a computer" (heaven forbid!!!)(P.S. I think you're stretching it just a just tad-wee bit with those those productivity and financial loss calculations ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lover of quiet computers Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Now they're just checking to make sure this is really the case.What did you mean by this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lover of quiet computers Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 I will not expose files on my personal computer to TCPA and Palladium.I'd be interested to hear how others feel about upgrading to Longhorn, in light of its Next Generation Secure Computing Base. (Are you going to avoid Longhorn because of this?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peachy Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Don't forget to enter our Palladium/Trusted Computing Platform Alliance poll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted August 9, 2003 Share Posted August 9, 2003 Now they're just checking to make sure this is really the case.What did you mean by this? With the product activation and registration system... As far as the licensing issue goes, what does it really matter? If I buy a copy of Windows, I'm allowed to legally install it on one machine (not 4-5)...That's what I mean... they're just trying to prevent the "stealing" of the software by using the same product key on different machines.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted August 9, 2003 Author Share Posted August 9, 2003 That's one thing that I really disagree with, as far as licensing goes. If I pay good money for a piece of software, there is no way that I'm going to pay twice to install it on two computers that I own exclusively, and rarely or never get used at the same time (eg.: a desktop and a laptop). That's ridiculous.Do you have to buy a new...-pen for every piece of paper you write on?-TV for every channel you watch?-Radio for every station you listen to?NO! Of course not! Why should software be any different?However, using the same software copy on separate machines when owned by separate people or when they are constantly in use at the same time is different -- I consider that illegal and a breach of copyright laws. Each one should have to pay for their own software....ONCE! Especially for something as "obsolete", according to some posters in this thread, as Windows 98. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Okay... but you don't OWN the software... you buy the license to use it... This is similar to car insurance... You have to have a separate car insurance policy for each car you own (and I never hear anyone complain about that)... MS does give discounts for additional licenses (consider it a "multi-computer" discount). I don't see much of a difference here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibe98765 Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 ...Sure, with careful tuning, regular reboots and a lot of work, you can make Win98 run acceptably........I don't want to waste my time massaging a system when I could be doing something useful instead.There is a level of "massaging" that you have to do with every piece of software to make it work exactly how you want -- even Windows XP needs several settings changed and some fine tuning to get it working how I want it (yes, I've used Windows XP before on my machine before, so I speak from experience, not guessing)Yes, but XP doesn't require the constant attention that Win98 does. And you don't have to worry about how many apps you are running because you are running out of GDI & User resources....Problem is, most people don't have the expertise to do that....Generally, the people who don't have those kinds of expertise just accept what they are given in an OS because they really don't care. To them it's "just a computer" (heaven forbid!!!)Yes, they just complain and blame everything on the computer.(P.S. I think you're stretching it just a just tad-wee bit with those those productivity and financial loss calculations )How so? That was a simple calculation that is commonly used in large business cost justifications. In today's challenging economic times with more companies laying off people than hiring, every minute lost is productivity lost. If more people, both in business and home use, recognized the cost of their wasted time, then nobody would still be running Win98, let alone those still running Win95! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 Okay... but you don't OWN the software... you buy the license to use it... This is similar to car insurance... You have to have a separate car insurance policy for each car you own (and I never hear anyone complain about that)... MS does give discounts for additional licenses (consider it a "multi-computer" discount). I don't see much of a difference here....No, I don't believe that I own the software after purchasing a copy. But their licensing policies are a bit ridiculous sometimes. I never buy more than one copy of software for two computers that I exclusively own and use.Personally, I think MS made a huge mistake in continuing to support Win98 through Jan 2004 (or is it June?). They should have dumped support at least a year ago. Only by doing so will they force corporate laggards to upgrade.I don't. More than half the world still uses Win98(SE), and more than likely doesn't want to be forced to upgrade unnecessarily. This extended support period at least gives users a chance to prepare to upgrade in the distant future; get a more practical amount of time of use out of what they paid for their systems; or decide to do something else; and hopefully anticipate another push-back of the official "death" date of Win98.For the record, I think it's actually March '04. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rons Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 There is a alternative. Linux. It is free - a download is required. I started using Mandrake 9.1 about 7 weeks ago on one of my systems. Yes, there is a new learning curve involved. And yes, there are still some issues that need to be addressed before Linux will be a viable alternative to Windows on the desktop.But now may be the time to start thinking about a alternative OS. You have two choices:1. Let MS dictate how you will compute in the future, OR2. Take control of your own future computing needs and costs.SCO lawsuit - there are rumors and suspicions that this may be MS funded in a attempt to discredit Linux. However, SCO has not and may not be able to prove it's case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibe98765 Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Personally, I think MS made a huge mistake in continuing to support Win98 through Jan 2004 (or is it June?). They should have dumped support at least a year ago. Only by doing so will they force corporate laggards to upgrade.I don't. More than half the world still uses Win98(SE), and more than likely doesn't want to be forced to upgrade unnecessarily. This extended support period at least gives users a chance to prepare to upgrade in the distant future; get a more practical amount of time of use out of what they paid for their systems; or decide to do something else; and hopefully anticipate another push-back of the official "death" date of Win98.For the record, I think it's actually March '04. I belive your preception of Win98 use is far off base. Here are some statistics:Go to http://www.statmarket.com/cgi-bin/sm.cgi?s...ature&week_stat where you'll find the follwoing stats:Microsoft OS Version Global Web Usage Share as of May 7, 2003 Windows XP 34.73% Windows 98 24.93% Windows XP use has increased 20% points in 1 year.------------------------------Go to Google http://www.google.com/press/zeitgeist.htmlYou'll find that computers used to access Google during the month of June were:Win9x based - 34%WinNT based - 60%Looking at the archieve's Win98's has had a steady erosion of 1% per month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greengeek Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Those figures don't mean that more people are upgrading to XP, you have to take into account the fact that most new computers these days come with XP preinstalled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibe98765 Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Okay... but you don't OWN the software... you buy the license to use it... This is similar to car insurance... You have to have a separate car insurance policy for each car you own (and I never hear anyone complain about that)... MS does give discounts for additional licenses (consider it a "multi-computer" discount). I don't see much of a difference here....No, I don't believe that I own the software after purchasing a copy. But their licensing policies are a bit ridiculous sometimes. I never buy more than one copy of software for two computers that I exclusively own and use. So, would you then only buy one insurance policy if you owned two cars and only you used them? Of course not. You can't do that. If you tried it, you would then be driving one of those cars illegally (without insurance) and opening yourself up to large financial exposure.Given your statement and your diagram in your post on the Security and Network forum link, it would appear that you are illegally using Win98se on one or more computers. Better hope nobody from MS is visiting here.Now it's clear why you are so adamant against switching from Win98 to XP. It's much more difficult to steal XP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibe98765 Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Those figures don't mean that more people are upgrading to XP, you have to take into account the fact that most new computers these days come with XP preinstalled.I'm not clear on what you are saying. What is the difference between upgrading and retiring the software because you brought a new machine? For people with older machines, they may want to upgrade but don't have enough hardware power to do so. WinXP's practical minimum requirement is 600mhz and 256mb ram.The stats were the best I could find available for free using a variety of search engines. If anyone has paid access to Gartner, Meta, Giga, IDC, etc. at work, maybe they can get us some better statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greengeek Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 I was thinking more of first time computer buyers, not upgrading from anything, sorry for the confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 Given your statement and your diagram in your post on the Security and Network forum link, it would appear that you are illegally using Win98se on one or more computers. Better hope nobody from MS is visiting here...............Now it's clear why you are so adamant against switching from Win98 to XP. It's much more difficult to steal XP. Computer 2 and the notebook are both mine, which I used the same Disc for. Computer 1 is not my machine. The owners of that machine purcahsed their own copy of Windows 98 (two in total, 1 of theirs and 1 of mine). I don't use theirs because it's theirs, not mine.I rarely use the two of mine at the same time anyway. As far as I know, M$ allows you to use two copies of Windows, providing that you own them both, one is a desktop PC, and the other is a notebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 WinXP's practical minimum requirement is 600mhz and 256mb ram.Actually, Windows XP official system requirements are a PII 233 Mhz with 64 MB RAM as the absolute minumum -- but that would craaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwl. There's no way you'd get XP to run at a practical speed with specs like that.I generally take Windows' system requirements and quadrupal them (comes out to about a 933 MHz with 256 MB RAM) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted August 10, 2003 Author Share Posted August 10, 2003 ....is similar to car insurance... You have to have a separate car insurance policy for each car you own (and I never hear anyone complain about that)......No it's not. If you damage your car, insurance will to pay to fix it. That's why you can't cover two cars under one policy -- they're not going to pay for two when they said they'll pay for one! Not only that, but insurance policies vary greatly according to the make, model, type, layout, etc. of the car their covering.When you buy an OS or software, it's not as if you have to buy a specially customized version of it for your computer (other than drivers, etc.)If you damage your computer, M$ isn't going to care worth beans how you pay or what it will cost to fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Okay... let me ask you this then... If you'd prefer a licensing system that is based on the user and not the computer, then if your spouse/children/friends wanted to use their computer, they'd have to have a different license to use your software... Whenever they logged in, they'd have to enter their license info... If they had a license for XP, and you were running 98, they'd be out of luck. I guess you could compare this possible idea (which I'm basing off your thoughts), to a driver's license... Yes you can drive your spouse's car with your license, but you'd need a different license if they had a Semi-tractor or a Motorcycle... I don't see how this idea would be any better...MS decided, that instead of setting it up this way, they set it up to lock the version to the computer instead of the user... This is how they figured they'd license their software. Nearly every other software company uses the same principles... It doesn't matter how many computers you own, you are allowed to have it INSTALLED on one system at a time. You are half-correct that MS does allow Windows to be installed on both a desktop and a laptop (only XP has this official allowance though). This idea doesn't exist for Win9x/Me/2k (AFAIK). With a retail copy of XP, you have the ability to license it on two different computers (legally one desktop and one laptop).One more thing... This is NOT a Windows vs. Linux topic... Please keep the posts directed about Windows futures and not Linux. If you'd like to discuss Linux, we have a Linux Forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 I generally take Windows' system requirements and quadruple them (comes out to about a 933 MHz with 256 MB RAM)This is still a rather cheap computer... Could be bought/built for less than $300 easily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rons Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Ryan,Is there are link for the EULA for XP that spells out using a single license for both a desktop & laptop system?Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeber Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 Thanks for bringing this up, Rons. I'd like to see this point settled once and for all, in writing, that I can quote to the clueless support person I'm going to have to call. I've been "told" that a single XP license covers both a portable and desktop...and I've had MS support persons say "no". Since this is easily a $200 issue, I'd love an absolute, quoteable, MS issued statement in writing. Is there one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted August 10, 2003 Share Posted August 10, 2003 I may be wrong on this as well... I found the XP Pro EULA posted on Slashdot (MS doesn't officially post it on the internet), and can't find what I was looking for in it.. I'm going to do some more searching later, but here's the EULA:http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21841&cid=2330480 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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