V.T. Eric Layton Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 Well, folks...I spent 5 hours today doing a Net-Upgrade from 6.06 LTS to 8.04 LTS. I never should have done this without asking one silly question. Does 8.04 still use that annoying libATA kernel as the 7.10 did? Well, yes. It does, making it totally unusable on my system. My /swap is on partition #17 on this drive. After spending all that time doing the upgrade, the OS will not boot, of course. It's having problems dealing with my IDE drive. Oh well. Ubuntu is now officially kaput on my system. I'll leave it there temporarily because it controls my bootup GRUB.Off I go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewmur Posted April 26, 2008 Share Posted April 26, 2008 Well, folks...I spent 5 hours today doing a Net-Upgrade from 6.06 LTS to 8.04 LTS. I never should have done this without asking one silly question. Does 8.04 still use that annoying libATA kernel as the 7.10 did? Well, yes. It does, making it totally unusable on my system. My /swap is on partition #17 on this drive. After spending all that time doing the upgrade, the OS will not boot, of course. It's having problems dealing with my IDE drive. Oh well. Ubuntu is now officially kaput on my system. I'll leave it there temporarily because it controls my bootup GRUB.Off I go... Somehow I don't think that is a problem that very many Ubuntu user will ever face. Have you thought about using Vbox to "test drive" distros or multiple drives? Having 17 or more partitions on one drive just isn't a problem very many people are going to face. Personally, I wouldn't want to put that many eggs in one basket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted April 26, 2008 Author Share Posted April 26, 2008 (edited) I'm running seven distributions of Linux. Most folks won't be doing that either. I don't worry about "eggs in one basket". If it fails, I'll replace and reinstall everything. No biggie. I have backups of my important data on external non-volatile media.If I really wanted to use Ubuntu 8.04 that badly, I'd custom compile my own kernel. However, I've moved beyond Ubuntu over the past couple years. It was a great "starter" Linux for me, though. Edited April 26, 2008 by V.T. Eric Layton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted April 26, 2008 Author Share Posted April 26, 2008 I gave away my 6.06 LTS CD to a pal at work, so I'm downloading a new one right now. I'll just install this 6.06 over the top of the /(root) partition and leave the /home partition alone. That should get be back to normal. I'll just have to make a few adjustments here and there. I'll be installing 8.04 LTS on my brother's system for him to learn and play with, though. I'll get some experience with it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewmur Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 (edited) I'm running seven distributions of Linux. Most folks won't be doing that either. I don't worry about "eggs in one basket". If it fails, I'll replace and reinstall everything. No biggie. I have backups of my important data on external non-volatile media.If I really wanted to use Ubuntu 8.04 that badly, I'd custom compile my own kernel. However, I've moved beyond Ubuntu over the past couple years. It was a great "starter" Linux for me, though.I can understand your frustration with having spent so much time and not getting the desired result. I just don't think it is fair to pan the distro as "Ubunto 8.04 - A Disappointment" as a thread heading when what you wanted it to do is beyond reasonable expectations.You obviously know how to cure the problem, so you weren't asking for a solution. You were merely giving the distro "bad press." I don't feel the "bad press" was justified. Just my opinion. Edited April 27, 2008 by lewmur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 Yes. This thread was a posting of my personal disappointment in this distribution and the fact that it will not serve me at this time using the configuration I currently have on my system. I'm sure it will work in a wonderful fashion for my brother (and many other folks) on his more simple setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Hi Eric . . . . . Is there no boot option you can use at the start of the install so it loads the PATA drivers ? ( I know a few distros solve the problem that way ) BrunoPS: The install disk tells us to look for the "kernel-parameters.txt" . . . . but I have not found the file yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 Not that I know of, Bruno. When Ubuntu tries to boot now it just locks up at the point where it's loading the drivers for the hard disks. It has my hda1 listed as sdd4 and that's where it locks up. I can't even boot "ro single".No big deal. If I ever redo this system's hard drives as I've threatened to do, I'll just put my /archive and /swap on low numbered partitions. That will solve the libATA problem. In the meantime, I'll just leave Ubuntu crippled. I don't use it for anything but its GRUB menu.lst these days, anyway.Off I go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Well, as long as you can use your Slackware you're okay I guess . . . . . and when the next Slackware is released you can format the complete drive and make a more suitable partition setup. Bruno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 That's pretty much the game plan. At that time (probably Slack 13), I'll probably break down my Windows RAID array, too. I'll add another drive and have two IDEs and two SATAs on the system for a total of one Terabyte of storage. Ought to be able to install some Linux distros that way, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Yep, with one terabyte you should indeed be ready for future releases Bruno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 Ubuntu 8.0.4:Yep, it can be a waste of time. If you rely on Wifi and have an older version working, stay with it: Hardys networking is just one piece of crap. Don't believe me? Get over at their forums, section Networking and wireless: the place is filled with problems regarding wifi. I have three different cards here (supported ones), none of them work, nada, zilch, noppes,nothing. The same with RC and beta2 or how it was called. They have done nothing to fix the networking bugs, except putting a 'won't fix' label on the bugs people posted. I have worked on this for three weeks now and still no wifi possible. I then start up Mandriva, set it up and wham : wifi works incl. WPA2. That's how it should have been.OTOH: Ubuntus printer set up is stunning: the Canon it did set up all by itself, the ethernet connected Brother was easy: just a couple of mouseclicks and there it went, printing. The same with the HP ethernet connected AIO : works within a couple of mouseclicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 There is good and bad to every distro. All we can do is find the one that makes us the most happy most of the time. For me, that's Slackware. For you, it may be Mandriva. To each their own... that's the beauty of Linux, as you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greengeek Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 You should consider it as 5 hours of learning something new rather than 5 hours wasted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted April 28, 2008 Author Share Posted April 28, 2008 No. If I had taken ten minutes to do my homework I could have totally avoided the wasted five hours of I-net updating. Oh well, I've wasted time on worse ventures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Golden Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Ubuntu 8.0.4:Yep, it can be a waste of time. If you rely on Wifi and have an older version working, stay with it: Hardys networking is just one piece of crap. Don't believe me? Get over at their forums, section Networking and wireless: the place is filled with problems regarding wifi. I have three different cards here (supported ones), none of them work, nada, zilch, noppes,nothing. The same with RC and beta2 or how it was called. They have done nothing to fix the networking bugs, except putting a 'won't fix' label on the bugs people posted. I have worked on this for three weeks now and still no wifi possible. I then start up Mandriva, set it up and wham : wifi works incl. WPA2. That's how it should have been.OTOH: Ubuntus printer set up is stunning: the Canon it did set up all by itself, the ethernet connected Brother was easy: just a couple of mouseclicks and there it went, printing. The same with the HP ethernet connected AIO : works within a couple of mouseclicks. Hi striker, The major problem with Wi-Fi in hardy at least with the intel card in my notebook seems to be the decision to stop using the restricted drivers and going to the new open source drivers.The open source drivers are a work in progress.So much for the superiority of Open Source.see this link for a possible solution if you have a intel card.http://linuxtechie.wordpress.com/2008/04/2...n-ubuntu-hardy/The decision to use FF3 beta is a poor one in my opinion.It is not easy to remove FF3 beta and replace it with FF2 doing so breaks some things in FF2 like some multimedia plugins.Other than these issues (the above link fixed the Wi-Fi problem and reinstalling FF3 and removing FF2 fixed the multimedia plugin issue) Hardy is a pretty good product at least on my machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 (edited) My two cents worth:I've been an Ubuntu user for a year or so, almost exclusively, and I am disappointed with Hardy. Greatly disappointed, in fact. It seems like quite a step backwards to me. Just a few low points-Where is Device Manager (or some facsimile thereof?) They have some sort of 'test' that wants to send them an email concerning the results. It's a not very informative time waster. I want a real Device Manager. Is there one? If so, where? This feels like an alpha, not a release. Remember, I'm posing as would-be first time user here, not an alpha tester.Hardy refuses to play on my two main machines which have ATI cards on them. In the past, Dapper, Edgy, Feisty, and Gutsy all were able to deal with these stupid video cards. Both in live CD session and installed. I wish I had nVidia cards in those boxes, but I do not. I cannot get any meaningfully usable display on either machine in live CD session. Starting with Gutsy, I began to see problems (occasionally) with the live CD finding Ethernet. Basic Ethernet, not some exotic wireless card in a laptop, for gosh sakes! This led to several unplanned installs where Feisty edged out Gutsy.Past distros in live CD session just 'felt right' and were very responsive. There is just something heavy and unresponsive in the way a live CD session of Hardy starts out, how it 'feels'. I experience more hesitancy, waiting, confusion, and indecision in that starting screen. This is definitely not the great user experience I had grown used to. On this, my 3rd attempt, and choosing a tower with an nVidia card, I finally got it to load and it found internet. I'm running 8.04 in Live CD session right now. But frankly, folks, I've had too much trouble from Hardy to date, whether beta or released. This distro flavor is supposed to be friendly to Windows refugees. In the past, it was. This one, I'm not so sure it is that way. Apparently anyone unlucky enough to have chosen an ATI card need not apply.It appears to me that many lower skill level first time users will be turned off by this one, more so than with previous releases. Edited April 28, 2008 by Cluttermagnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Golden Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 (edited) My two cents worth:I've been a Ubuntu user for a year or so, almost exclusively, and I am disappointed with Hardy. Greatly disappointed, in fact. It seems like quite a step backwards to me. Just a few low points-Where is Device Manager (or some facsimile thereof?) They have some sort of 'test' that wants to send them an email concerning the results. A not too informative time waster. I want a real Device Manager. Is there one? If so, where? This feels like an alpha, not a release. Remember, I'm posing as would-be first time user here, not an alpha tester.Hardy refuses to play on my two main machines which have ATI cards on them. In the past, Dapper, Edgy, Feisty, and Gutsy all were able to deal with these stupid video cards. Both in live CD session and installed. I wish they had nVidia cards but they do not. I cannot get any meaningfully usable display on either machine in live CD session. Starting with Gutsy, I began to see problems with the live CD finding Ethernet. Basic Ethernet, not some exotic wireless card in a laptop, for gosh sakes! This led to several unplanned installs where Feisty edged out Gutsy.Past distros in live CD session just 'felt right' and were very responsive. There is just something heavy and unresponsive in the way a live CD session of Hardy starts out, how it 'feels'. More waiting, more confusion and indecision. This is definitely not the great user experience I had grown used to. On this, my 3rd attempt, and choosing a tower with an nVidia card, I finally got it to load and it found internet. I'm running 8.04 in Live CD session right now. But frankly, folks, I've had too much trouble from Hardy to date, whether beta or released. This distro flavor is supposed to be friendly to Windows refugees. In the past, it was. This one, I'm not so sure it is that way. Apparently anyone unlucky enough to have chosen an ATI card need not apply.It appears to me that many lower skill level first time users will be turned off by this one, more so than with previous releases. I don't know about the AMD/ATi card, my notebook uses the Radeon Mobility X1400 and hardy manages that just fine. As a matter of fact installing the latest restricted drivers from AMD/ATi was a snap using the CCHTML wiki method to install.Installing the latest drivers allowed the compiz desktop effects.Before installing the 3-D drivers the the default mesa drivers provided great 2-D including allowing the native screen resolution of 1280x800. This is something all other versions of Ubuntu didn't allow until you installed the 3-D (fglrx) drivers.Except for the issues mentioned in my earlier post (Wi-Fi and the default Firefox 3 installation)I am so far beginning to like hardy.I tend to agree with you clutter that this is a step backward, in that it isn't as newbie friendly as earlier versions of Ubuntu.However experienced linux folks should have little or no problems.I really hope new linux users won't be turned off by hardy.Of course there is always Dapper Drake, the other LTS Ubuntu. Edited April 28, 2008 by Frank Golden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 (edited) Thanks, Frank. Well, I can't even get a stable, readable screen with desktop ATI cards without some sort of special cheat code, apparently. That's just plain crazy, especially in view of the fact that previous releases took those very same ATI cards in stride and just simply worked with them. Never mind compiz or 3D or any of the eye candy- I'm talking flat out inability to render any usable page, period. No display, totally unusable. Blah. At best, wavy diagonal white and yellow lines on a brown background. Often, just a blank screen, and apparently the OS skips out early without paying its bill... Very disappointing...Remember, many if not most new users will pass this one by if it doesn't work well in live CD session. It did in the past. And no Device Manager? That's one of the tools even Windows refugees understand, and can use as at least a somewhat meaningful yardstick to evaluate how well the distro and their hardware are going to get along.Oh, yes- the video cards in question predate the AMD acquisition of ATI, being about 3-5 years old. As I say, nothing that new, and all previous versions of Ubuntu manage to work with them, however well or poorly.I'm already finding Dapper rather dated- for example, k3b works poorly- or not at all- in one of the subject machines. k3b performs flawlessly in one of those same machines running Feisty. I have found Feisty to be a sort of 'sweet spot' for me personally, to date, but was hoping Hardy might displace Feisty. So far, no go. I'm quite saddened and disappointed. Edited April 28, 2008 by Cluttermagnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peachy Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Hardy is the first Ubuntu release that does not install restricted drivers by default; you must manually enable them. After installation if you have restricted drivers you may see the Hardware devices icon show up on the status bar. This is how I installed the Linksys firmware for my WiFi card in a Compaq Evo nc100 notebook. This caused b43-fwcutter to be installed automatically. I had wireless networking up and running in no time at all doing this. If the Hardware devices icon doesn't show up, go into the Systems menu and click on it from there to see what other restricted drivers have not been installed. And because of licensing issues you will have to install libdvdcss, w32codecs and Acrobat Reader yourself, as examples, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Yes folks, Peachy is right. And with regard to the ATI driver (fglrx): this one will be available too then. I have installed and uninstalled and reinstalled the thing several times and no problem at all with the ATI driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 (edited) I am hearing, perhaps, that one must simply install 8.04 and then know how to remediate ATI display problems up front by installing 'restricted drivers'? As it stands, I have two of my main machines which absolutely choke on 8.04 because of having modest ATI video AGP type cards installed. Is there some magic workaround? Some magic cheat code which will somehow cause a live CD session to succeed? I say that without that possibility, Hardy represents a giant step backwards, and has become (randomly) newcomer unfriendly, depending mainly on whether or not an ATI card is present. Come on, folks- Hardy has got to just work in live CD session. Period. End of discussion. Yet it does not...If this is not so, they could at least mention this behavior up front on their download page. I say you are going to lose a bunch of potential users up front, if the live CD option doesn't work. Needless to say, I hold ATI/AMD much more responsible in this, and am not piling on Canonical, per se. But this is a mess and it needs some fixing.Oh, and needless to say, I will never buy or recommend ATI hardware again! But I did buy a couple of video cards back in my innocent, happy go lucky 98SE days. Pity the day... :thumbsdown:Oh, I'll install Hardy on an nVidia machine and work with it and learn it, but I haven't yet learned and understood how I would make it work on my two ATI machines. In time, I'm sure I will learn that. Meanwhile, I can't even get a stable display on those boxes. How do I do any command line work on them? Apparently, everything of that sort would have to be done at the outset? When first installing the OS? Is there a cheat codes page somewhere which addresses this?I think Hardy's problem is that it may be trying to behave ethically in a very unethical world? Edited April 28, 2008 by Cluttermagnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Clutter, I don't have any problems with the ATI drivers at all. OTOH I don't use any of this 3D fancy eye candy stuff, I switched it off. It set it self up with the correct resolution of 1680 x 1050, even without the ATI driver installed. After the driver install the resolution was still spot on including the refresh rate for the screen I use. (notebook)I used the alternate CD (as always with those *buntus).After the install just wait a couple of minutes: that bloody tracker thing (the search tool which I got rid of!) hunts the hard disk drive for files. I also completely removed mono and its brothers and some other crap. Anyway, when that tracker has done its awful job, a popup appears telling about restricted drivers. Click that and enable what you need and follow the simple directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 (edited) Ahhhh! The alternate install. I never considered the possibility, striker. Thanks! I'll look into how that experience goes. Again, I think Canonical needs to be a little more forthcoming on their download page about ATI problems. That should not be a secret- it should be widely and publically known, even by newcomers.BTW I never mess with the fancy, eye candy graphics stuff. A very simple and minimal display usually satisfies Clutter. But no display at all is unacceptable. Edited April 28, 2008 by Cluttermagnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewmur Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Ahhhh! The alternate install. I never considered the possibility, striker. Thanks! I'll look into how that experience goes. Again, I think Canonical needs to be a little more forthcoming on their download page about ATI problems. That should not be a secret- it should be widely and publically known, even by newcomers.BTW I never mess with the fancy, eye candy graphics stuff. A very simple and minimal display usually satisfies Clutter. But no display at all is unacceptable. I'll just wait for the folks at Mint to solve all those pesky problems. I installed U 8.04 but only to have to test. Mint always has those little extras that make the experience so much more enjoyable. (Even if they do ignore some of the finer points of the U.S. legal system.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Golden Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Ahhhh! The alternate install. I never considered the possibility, striker. Thanks! I'll look into how that experience goes. Again, I think Canonical needs to be a little more forthcoming on their download page about ATI problems. That should not be a secret- it should be widely and publically known, even by newcomers.BTW I never mess with the fancy, eye candy graphics stuff. A very simple and minimal display usually satisfies Clutter. But no display at all is unacceptable. Even though I mentioned the "eyecandy" in my earlier post it was only to illustrateone of the main features of hardy over earlier releases. In earlier releases getting compiz to work usually took some doing.I personally don't care for the "eyecandy" myself though I do need the 3-D support provided by fglrx.Programs like Googleearth and Stellarium depend on fglrx.BTW, Turning on the special desktop effects cause serious problems with both Googleearthand Stellarium.Thankfully turning of the "eyecandy" is a simple one click affair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Your mentioning the 'eyecandy' had nothing to do with my reaction to Clutters post Frank. Indeed one can turn it on and off with just one mouseclick. Thanks for bringing this to our attention: BTW, Turning on the special desktop effects cause serious problems with both Googleearth and Stellarium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 I'll just wait for the folks at Mint to solve all those pesky problems. I installed U 8.04 but only to have to test. Mint always has those little extras that make the experience so much more enjoyable. (Even if they do ignore some of the finer points of the U.S. legal system.) I'm pretty impressed with Mint 4.0, and have it on 1 machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted April 29, 2008 Author Share Posted April 29, 2008 I'll just wait for the folks at Mint to solve all those pesky problems. I installed U 8.04 but only to have to test. Mint always has those little extras that make the experience so much more enjoyable. (Even if they do ignore some of the finer points of the U.S. legal system.) Mint is an excellent distro. As a matter of fact, in light of my recent Hardy experiences, I'm considering installing Mint for my brother rather than Ubuntu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urmas Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 Turning on the special desktop effects cause serious problems with both Googleearthand Stellarium.This is an "ATI woe". nVidia works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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