Another 'Get Linux Running on This Box' Thread

[Cluttermagnet]

Hi, all-

 

Wanted to get a few initial ideas regarding an old Dell Dimension 2350 series tower I started working on recently. It runs a Celeron (P4) 2.2GHz and 2x 256M PC2100 DDR RAM right now. It Is basically working but I'm having trouble getting it to boot into a Linux live CD session.

 

It has two hard drives, IDE types, and looks like two different versions or installs of XP on it. I have played a lot with the primary and secondary IDE cables and devices as I started to get a feel for how this Dell mobo likes them set up and jumpered, etc.

 

Long story short, I have yet to successfully get any Linux distro running live CD. OTOH I have successfully had it boot into one of the XP installs and access a data CD in the drive, pulling off a small Win software utility and successfully copying it and running it from the XP desktop.

 

I have tried Ubuntu 10.04- no luck and it hangs. Tried Mint 10. Mint 10 is much more informative and much more dilligent as it tries to get a RAMdisk set up, but it ultimately fails to do that. One hint, I think I saw trying Bodhi 1.0.4, was the admin message that it had failed to get beyond "initramfs" if I remember the nomenclature right.

 

One other broad hint is that this machine has some sort of very aggressive bootup routine associated with WinXP. Seemed like most IDE configurations which should have led to a live CD boot instead defaulted to this Win equivalent of the grub boot window, where you get only to choose between two different XP OS's, and it sort of looks like a DOS type environment. I mean this thing was very pesky, very resolute, and was darned well going to get you into XP come h3ll or high water. I finally figured out to have one of the two hard drives disconnected and started to get the beginnings of some live CD bootups- but they always stalled and 'RAMFS' seems to be the hangup. Clearly I did get so far as to have the mobo at least reading the Linux CD's and 'trying'.

 

Yes, of course I have been into the BIOS and set the boot order to: 1- floppy, 2- cd, 3 hard drive- and I constantly rechecked that to be sure it didn't 'slip a gear' because ot seemed to have done that once or twice. Mostly the BIOS seemed to settle down and keep my new boot order, however.

 

So- any bright ideas off the top of your heads, guys? I wanted to initially keep the XP's but I may resort to taking the hard drive(s) and putting them in another tower long enough to nuke them and reformat them to EXT3, etc. using gparted. In fact, I may resort to a DD command to thoroughly wipe both the main part and the boot sector of the drive. Whatever is handling bootup is like a junk yard dog.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Cluttermagnet

[raymac46]

Sometimes these older machines have trouble with their optical drives. I swapped out a wonky CD-RW on my Dell Optiplex GX270 with a DVD-RAM and things worked much better. If you have a spare optical drive around I'd try that..

Alternatively if you can get the old beast to boot from a thumbdrive, dump your ISO on there with Unetbootin and try it that way.

[Cluttermagnet]

Sometimes these older machines have trouble with their optical drives. I swapped out a wonky CD-RW on my Dell Optiplex GX270 with a DVD-RAM and things worked much better. If you have a spare optical drive around I'd try that..

Alternatively if you can get the old beast to boot from a thumbdrive, dump your ISO on there with Unetbootin and try it that way.

 

Both good suggestions. I did try swapping the CDRW drive nearly at the outset. My gut is telling me it's probably not a problem with the optical drive itself.

 

There is clear evidence of a live CD session of Linux commencing, as evidenced by the text that goes scrolling by, and the activity light on the CD drive.

 

I have yet to 'burn' my first thumb drive ISO. I should learn how to do that. May be a problem with that, however- one of the options for booting in the BIOS setup was LAN, but I did not see any USB option.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Cluttermagnet

[raymac46]

Sometimes you can upgrade the BIOS and it'll then give you additional options like booting from USB.

Have you got a simple distro like Puppy Linux or SLAX around just to see if you can get any CD to boot? The hard drive shouldn't be able to control things if the CD starts up first.

[raymac46]

One other thing. I'd put CD as #1 in the boot order as you are unlikely to need a floppy boot. Put floppy as #2.

[Cluttermagnet]

Sometimes you can upgrade the BIOS and it'll then give you additional options like booting from USB.

Have you got a simple distro like Puppy Linux or SLAX around just to see if you can get any CD to boot? The hard drive shouldn't be able to control things if the CD starts up first.

 

I guess I should try a few more lightweight distros before giving up on that aspect. My gut check is telling me there is something very wrong here. This is a first for me (I think). Probably never before have seen it choke as it first begins to build the RAMdisk virtual OS as this one does.

[raymac46]

Also looks like you are trying exclusively Ubuntu (Debian) types of distros. Probably shouldn't matter but an RPM type of distro like Mageia 1.0 could be a possibility.

[raymac46]

Odd because Dell is usually one of the most Linux friendly machines around. I don't know if you need to make sure you have an i386 based distro given that you have a really old Celeron processor. Just stream of consciousness thoughts here.

[Cluttermagnet]

One other thing. I'd put CD as #1 in the boot order as you are unlikely to need a floppy boot. Put floppy as #2.

 

Certainly no problem doing that. My preference is floppy first because on rare occasions I like to boot to a Win98 startup disk. Heck, I'll try anything, but I doubt that is my problem here. The floppy grinds and flashes first, then the CD goes into action if a disk is in it. IDE is last, so you're going to have to live with the delay and inconvenience while the empty floppy drive grinds away. One gets used to it. I still like the old, dated floppies, though.

 

Unfortunately I don't have the space upstairs here to have both a good internet computer and a UUT (unit under test) running simultaneously. I really should be doing this downstairs where I can have at least 3 running simultaneously with internet access amd individual monitors. The upstairs setup is new and still evolving.

 

Also looks like you are trying exclusively Ubuntu (Debian) types of distros. Probably shouldn't matter but an RPM type of distro like Mageia 1.0 could be a possibility.

 

Good idea- I'll try a couple of Mandriva disks.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Cluttermagnet

[raymac46]

Out of ideas for now. I'll wait and see if Josh Urmas or Eric can get you going.

Edited May 22, 2012 by raymac46

[raymac46]

This machine has only one optical drive and it's on the secondary IDE channel, right? I had trouble with another machine where I had two IDE drives on the secondary channel and they didn't get along very well. The second drive was also a bit weird.

 

To be honest, whenever I've had this problem it has been because:

(1) bad media.

(2) bad optical drive.

(3) old video hardware that doesn't like a new kernel.

Edited May 22, 2012 by raymac46

[Cluttermagnet]

Out of ideas for now. I'll wait and see if Josh Urmas or Eric can get you going.

 

Thanks! The old Mandriva disks might do it. They always stood out for being able to handle marginal hardware that the Debian distros couldn't.

[Cluttermagnet]

This machine has only one optical drive and it's on the secondary IDE channel, right? I had trouble with another machine where I had two IDE drives on the secondary channel and they didn't get along very well.

 

Frankly, I'd have to look. I think I do have it as a slave on the master IDE bus, set to C/S with the HD the master and I never checked how that drive is strapped. I think I found it originally in slave position with the CD as master, and CD strapping I just don't remember. But then I changed out that CD. I'll report back later- may not be able to remember everything- I was going fast and loose- and only taking mental notes.

 

This will be a fairly decent medium level platform once I get it running with a Linux distro with perhaps a full GB of RAM. The tower had one 500G drive in it! Havent determined what the other HD is yet. But not bad for free! BTW it will be an 'ugly' because I came with the front panel missing. I bet I find one eventually, though. A lot of Dells get made, it's a popular 'major brand'.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Cluttermagnet

[raymac46]

Best way in my experience is to strap the hard drives as master and slave on the primary and let the optical drive have the secondary to itself. I usually set the hard drives as cable select and put the Master on the end. But that shouldn't really affect things all that much.

Had a look at the specs and you have a bog standard Intel 845 system there. It should be fine assuming the hardware is in good shape.

[Cluttermagnet]

One other thought I had was that some of the older Dell BIOS had an actual setting to enable or disable installing other OS's. I forget which machine I saw that on. I don't remember seeing such an option in this simple BIOS list, however.

[Cluttermagnet]

Best way in my experience is to strap the hard drives as master and slave on the primary and let the optical drive have the secondary to itself. I usually set the hard drives as cable select and put the Master on the end. But that shouldn't really affect things all that much.

Had a look at the specs and you have a bog standard Intel 845 system there. It should be fine assuming the hardware is in good shape.

 

Yep, that would be my instinct, too- but the XP bootup loader is very aggressive* so I have one drive completely disconnected at the moment. I think the combo of one HD on primary and one CD on secondary, both masters, did not work. Going by memory, it is primary IDE only and HD is the master right now.

 

FWIW XP did appear fully functional when I let it boot up one time. Soooo much crap was starting with Windows! Took forever to load and enable my USB mouse! First thing I did was start shutting down software left and right, then installed Startup Control Panel and deselected a bunch of utilities from starting. Waste of time mostly but did convince me that the hardware is all basically OK, so it seems.

 

 

* Let me elaborate- that XP bootloader seems to be able to override my settings and ignore a bootable CD in the optical drive when that second HD is hooked up. It's a junkyard dog! I think I'm going to wipe both drives. I just don't want to be hasty. First I want to rule out any hardware failures. It seems unlikely there is anything wrong with the Intel 845 chipset- but one never knows...

Edited May 22, 2012 by Cluttermagnet

[Guest LilBambi]

If you have a few bucks to put into the Dell, you will find that more Linux will be happy on that system if you go to the Max 1GB RAM for that system. Replacing the 256MB sticks with 512MB sticks will get you there. They are pretty cheap too. Found some for like $8-$10 each.

 

Here are some links with info for RAM upgrades. I did a search for Dell Dimension 2350 upgrade PC2100 memory

[Cluttermagnet]

True dat, Fran. Well, I have so many P4 platforms kicking around here that it's no sweat to borrow. I have 1G (2x512M) of DDR 400 (PC 3200?) in this box I'm typing on, and I can 'borrow it around'. I think the faster RAM would be backwards compatible on this Dell hardware which was designed to run DDR 266 (PC2100), 2 slots and up to 1G total.

 

Right now, 2x 256M PC2100 socketed in the Dell

Edited May 22, 2012 by Cluttermagnet

[raymac46]

There would have to be something in the BIOS to override an install, but I've never had any sort of experience with Dell like that. I just don't see how the hard drive bootloader could do anything if the CD gets boot priority. The HD is just mounted like a data drive and doesn't have any say in the system. I suppose you could try disbling the hard drives or disconnecting them so only the CD would boot but I don't see why that would be necessary.

I agree with Fran that maxing out the memory is a good idea, if you can get the system to boot.

[Cluttermagnet]

Yep. All I can tell you, Ray, is that I've never seen a desktop behave quite like this particular Dell Dimension 2350. Also, although rare, I definitely have encountered a Dell with a BIOS that had such an option, and you had to actually enable the installation of another OS in BIOS before it would proceed. Honest! I've only seen it that one time. Wish I could remember on which Dell that was.

[raymac46]

My Dell Optiplex GX270 is basically the industrial version of your Dimension - it has a P4 2.0 processor but otherwise the chipset and video is the same. It's running Xubuntu 12.04 no problem. It has 1 GB of RAM and as I said before I needed to replace the CD-RW with a newer DVD-RAM before I could get anything to install. I got a lot of PATA error messages which convinced me something was wrong with the optical drive.

[Cluttermagnet]

Anyway, night owl Clutter needs to get a little sleep now. I'll have another go round with that Dell later today and let you know how it went.

 

My Dell Optiplex GX270 is basically the industrial version of your Dimension - it has a P4 2.0 processor but otherwise the chipset and video is the same. It's running Xubuntu 12.04 no problem. It has 1 GB of RAM and as I said before I needed to replace the CD-RW with a newer DVD-RAM before I could get anything to install. I got a lot of PATA error messages which convinced me something was wrong with the optical drive.

 

I'll definitely keep that in mind- but remember I have already substituted a different CDRW drive to no apparent effect.

 

Oh, and I'm going to check out Xubuntu 12 since you like it.

 

Ahhh- waidaminnit- DVDRAM? I didn't notice that until now. I'll look into having one around here as a spare. I can do some creative 'swapping' to try one in that box later today.

 

I have not seen any specific PATA error messages, as I recall. All I saw was the live CD install hanging at the command 'initramfs' with the blinking cursor.

 

OK, be back later...

Edited May 22, 2012 by Cluttermagnet

[Guest LilBambi]

True dat, Fran. Well, I have so many P4 platforms kicking around here that it's no sweat to borrow. I have 1G (2x512M) of DDR 400 (PC 3200?) in this box I'm typing on, and I can 'borrow it around'. I think the faster RAM would be backwards compatible on this Dell hardware which was designed to run DDR 266 (PC2100), 2 slots and up to 1G total.

 

Right now, 2x 256M PC2100 socketed in the Dell

 

Apparently so, at least according to this site. Dell's specs on that Dimension don't seem to concur, but they want you to buy what they sell.

 

If it turns out there are a few versions of that Dell Dimension (meaning your RAM doesn't trade well), here's a great deal on some PC2100 from Amazon: 512MB Memory RAM Upgrade for the Dell Dimension 2350, 2400, 4550 (DDR-266, PC2100)

 

Rest well Clutter!

Edited May 22, 2012 by LilBambi

[securitybreach]

I am thinking that maybe you do not have enough ram to run the livecds you downloaded. The initramfs basically copies a temporary filesystem and the kernel to your ram before booting. I know that Xubuntu and others say that the minimum requirements for running a livecd are 512 ram but if I were you, I would run a install cd instead of a livecd to see if that is indeed the issue. You could also try running a lighter distro via livecd like PuppyLinux of D**n Small Linux to see if that is indeed your issue. Both of those distros only require 128mb or 256mb ram to run the livecd.

 

This may not be the issue but it would worth looking into.

 

http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=265540

 

[abarbarian]

I think the combo of one HD on primary and one CD on secondary, both masters, did not work. Going by memory, it is primary IDE only and HD is the master right now.

 

Have a look here

 

System Board Connectors and Sockets

 

Do you have the latest bios

 

http://www.dell.com/support/drivers/us/en/04/DriverDetails/DriverFileFormats?c=us&s=bsd&cs=04&l=en&DriverId=R58200

 

Can you disable all boot options in the bios apart from the cd option ?

 

Have you double checked all the master slave jumpers ?

 

 

Have you thought about just using Windows XP

 

Save the XP licence code and then you can do a fresh XP install if it a legal copy.

[securitybreach]

Have you thought about just using Windows XP

 

Save the XP licence code and then you can do a fresh XP install if it a legal copy.

 

Blasphemy

 

[amenditman]

I am thinking that maybe you do not have enough ram to run the livecds you downloaded. The initramfs basically copies a temporary filesystem and the kernel to your ram before booting.

This was my first thought, not enough RAM to run a standard LiveCD environment.

I would try PartedMagic, and use the boot option for Low Ram (option # 3). The default requires about 312 MB, but I have seen it fail to boot on some older machines with 512 MB. The Low Ram boot option takes a lot less and usually boots on old hardware. Another option which I have used successfully on systems which won't boot a standard LiveCD is the Alternate Graphical Environment (meaning basic VESA).

 

PartedMagic will also let you check your Hard drives for failure/error. Gparted is on PartedMagic. As well as DBAN, dd, and a few other utilities to wipe the hard drives.

Edited May 22, 2012 by amenditman

[abarbarian]

Blasphemy

 

 

Naturally as I am a true anarchist.

[Guest LilBambi]

Those Dell P4s do very well with Linux.

 

And especially if you have 1GB RAM with newer Distros.

 

LiveCDs really do need more RAM as noted already by Josh. At least normal distro's LiveCDs.

 

It's great that there are lean/streamlined distros like Puppy, etc. for lesser computers.

 

Shame it's not 64-bit ... or Puppy Linux: fatdog would have been fun.

[securitybreach]

Shame it's not 64-bit ... or Puppy Linux: fatdog would have been fun.

 

Wow, I was kind of amazed that FatDog uses xine-ui instead of something like mplayer or vlc. I have not used or seen xine offered on distro(OOTB) in many years.