Even gurus giving up on Windows

[lewmur]

Seems that even long time Windows gurus are giving up on the OS. Read this article by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes.

[Guest LilBambi]

But now, other than for test systems and virtual machines, I carry out my day-to-day work on a variety of OS X, iOS and Android systems. I barely giving my Windows PC systems a second glance. My primary work system is a MacBook Pro, and in the ten months I've had it it's flawlessly done everything I've asked of it, from run Microsoft Word to render 4K video. I've lost count of the number of notebooks I've owned over the years, but this MacBook Pro is, by far, the most reliable system I've owned, and I put part of that down to the fact that it doesn’t run Windows.

 

Quite the epitaph there.

[Guest LilBambi]

I just wonder if that will be said of Macs with Mavericks...there have been a lot of solid very techy Mac users that have been having real issues with Mavericks.

 

Irritatingly so are a couple clients...

[V.T. Eric Layton]

And still... I've never yet laid hands on anything Apple. Maybe one day when I grow up.

[raymac46]

If you don't mind the lockdown and the price tags, Apple can be a very nice ecosystem to be in. I remember setting up a home network for a neighbor friend who had an older Mac laptop and a brand new Mac all-in-one. They ran different versions of Mac O/S, and I had visions of trying to get Windows XP Pro to communicate with Windows 7 Home. That wasn't easy the first time I tried it.

Instead I took the mouse and went "click." Done. I was impressed.

One major problem Windows has now is that - in its eagerness to reinvent itself as both a tablet and PC O/S, it threw a lot of its long time supporters under the bus. These are the ones who wouldn't buy/use anything else because they had a supposed comfort zone with Windows. When Windows 8 took that away, all bets were off. If the Micro-loyalists had to learn a new O/S anyway, why not get acquainted with OSX, or Android, or iOS, or even Linux?

Edited November 12, 2013 by raymac46

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Linux? That one sounds interesting.

[Guest LilBambi]

So true Ray.

 

Linux always sounds interesting, Eric.

[raymac46]

So true Ray.

 

Linux always sounds interesting, Eric.

I had a lady in the neighborhood who wouldn't even THINK of letting me install Linux on one of her old computers. She had to get a new one with Windows 7. She said she could never learn how to use anything but Windows. That was then.

She recently picked up a Samsung Ativ Tab 3 Windows 8 machine and within a day took it back and got an iPad. I guess the learning curve isn't so steep after all in this post PC era.

This is precisely the type of invincibly loyal Windows user that Microsoft is losing.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

I had a client a couple weeks ago whom I thought was actually going to cry when I told here the EOL for XP was rapidly approaching. She told me that I must be mistaken. I sat down at her system and brought up this website. She still didn't believe me. She said that she was going to call Microsoft Customer Support as soon as I left to discuss this situation with them. She firmly believed that she could make arrangements with MS so they would continue to send her XP updates. I wished her good luck with that call and left pronto!

[zlim]

This says a lot

My experience of Windows on tablets closely resembles that of my ZDNet colleague James Kendrick. Bottom line, they let me down too much to want to bother with them. Why would I trade a reliable iPad or Android tablet for an unreliable Windows 8.1 tablet? Why trade a tablet that just works for one that regularly sends me on quests, roaming the Internet looking for the right elixir to fix the system?

bold added by plodr

[ross549]

She firmly believed that she could make arrangements with MS so they would continue to send her XP updates. I wished her good luck with that call and left pronto!

 

And Windows 7 was not an option for her? Wow.

 

Adam

[lewmur]

And Windows 7 was not an option for her? Wow.

 

Adam

Obviously not if it cost money. :'( And are you sure Win7 would even run on her old hardware? Edited November 13, 2013 by lewmur

[Guest LilBambi]

There are plenty of old XP hardware computers that will run a nice version of Linux but in no way will run Windows 7 sad to say. Even ones that will run it with 2GB RAM in a 32-bit install are slow as Christmas as time goes on and OS and software get heavier ... especially with security software installed....even MSE and using the Windows 7 firewall.

[raymac46]

There are plenty of old XP hardware computers that will run a nice version of Linux but in no way will run Windows 7 sad to say. Even ones that will run it with 2GB RAM in a 32-bit install are slow as Christmas as time goes on and OS and software get heavier ... especially with security software installed....even MSE and using the Windows 7 firewall.

Yep I mentioned in another thread that my back neighbor has an 87 year old sister who runs XP on a 2003 era AMD Athlon XP machine. This thing has VIA graphics (AGP) and there's no way it has enough muscle to run Windows 7. No point in upgrading graphics either. I added memory to it a while ago since she originally had 256 MB, but it'll end its useful life when XP ends as well. It's no good for general Linux use since the old Slot 462 processor won't support SSE2 and hence Flash won't work.

I do have a Linux solution for her - it's a Vista-esque 2007 Dell Pentium dual core that has 2 GB of RAM and a low end Nvidia card. This one runs Linux Mint Cinnamon nicely. I plan to let her try it out at some future date.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

And Windows 7 was not an option for her? Wow.

 

Adam

 

Her machine is about 7 years old. It wouldn't be capable of running 7 efficiently.

[ross549]

Linux is not always the best option to migrate users away from Windows XP. I've tried on more than one occasion. It did not end well in either case.

 

Adam

[lewmur]

Linux is not always the best option to migrate users away from Windows XP. I've tried on more than one occasion. It did not end well in either case.

 

Adam

Nothing is "always" a best option but I've succeeded many times in moving my elderly neighbours to Mint. I certainly wouldn't attempt to move them to Arch but both Ubuntu and Mint are as easy, IMHO, for a casual XP user, to learn as Win7 or 8. After all, all most of them want to do is click an icon to start a browser, open their email, start "Pogo", or some other online gaming site. And then I don't have the headache of going back every few months to clean up the mess that Windows has created. Edited November 14, 2013 by lewmur

[ross549]

The problems I have run into are with users completely set in their ways. Outlook express, MS Word, etc. Sure there are alternatives, but I have had MORE calls when switching these types over to their FOSS equivalents. I think many users will eventually get frustrated with linux if it was not their own idea to switch.

 

This is a frustrating element for me with the linux community as a whole. Most have the idea that linux is the only "right" way to do things, and then push it on users who are not adequately prepared for it, or really understand what the implications are.

 

All OSs have their place, even Windows. Choice is a good thing.

 

Adam

[raymac46]

I never try to push anyone to Linux. I'll help them migrate if they want to. I have one friend who moved over seamlessly and is very happy with the security. If folks are used to Chrome or Firefox it doesn't seem to make much difference to them whether they run Linux or Windows.

A number of seniors will happily use Linux if they get it for free and don't have to buy a new machine.

[Guest LilBambi]

The problems I have run into are with users completely set in their ways. Outlook express, MS Word, etc. Sure there are alternatives, but I have had MORE calls when switching these types over to their FOSS equivalents. I think many users will eventually get frustrated with linux if it was not their own idea to switch.

 

This is a frustrating element for me with the linux community as a whole. Most have the idea that linux is the only "right" way to do things, and then push it on users who are not adequately prepared for it, or really understand what the implications are.

 

All OSs have their place, even Windows. Choice is a good thing.

 

Adam

Well, even on Windows 7 and worse so on Windows 8, Outlook Express is not an option. It's Windows Live Mail on Windows 7 and some oddball Mail app in Windows 8.

 

I just moved someone who is very set in their ways with Outlook Express to Thunderbird compared with Windows Live Mail email client.

 

For most folks, as long as the machine can run Mint and they use something like Thunderbird (you can import their folders and exported to csv file address book), and Google Chrome with Flash built in, they would not find much of an issue.

 

It's when they need specifically Word or Excel or some other Windows only program that they can't live without for some reason that there can be an issue.

 

And then you would not want to move them to any other OS because you know they would not be happy.

[lewmur]

The problems I have run into are with users completely set in their ways. Outlook express, MS Word, etc. Sure there are alternatives, but I have had MORE calls when switching these types over to their FOSS equivalents. I think many users will eventually get frustrated with linux if it was not their own idea to switch.

 

This is a frustrating element for me with the linux community as a whole. Most have the idea that linux is the only "right" way to do things, and then push it on users who are not adequately prepared for it, or really understand what the implications are.

 

All OSs have their place, even Windows. Choice is a good thing.

 

Adam

This, very simply, goes directly against my own experience. Sure, there are Office users that are "set in their ways". But people using Office 97 to 2003, would have as much resistance to Office 2013 as they would to Libre Office. We are no longer talking about switching people who still have the choice of sticking with XP but of people who are being forced to abandon XP in favor of something else. I maintain that switching from Office 2003 and XP to Linux and Libre Office is easier than switching to Win8 and Office 2013.

 

And the fact that one option cost several hundred dollars while the other is free, should go a long way in influencing the choice.

Edited November 15, 2013 by lewmur

[goretsky]

Hello,

 

I have a ThinkPad T42 (2004) and a ThinkPad T43p (2005) running Windows 7 tolerably. Both have 2GB of RAM and were upgraded with 60GB SSDs and 802.11n cards. The T42 is just using the basic SVGA driver. I would not want to use them for gaming, but they are great for running office-type productivity software, browsing the web, and other common tasks. I would imagine DVD viewing would be doable on the T43p, but I have not tried that yet.

 

Just because a computer is old doesn't mean that it is useless, and some judicious upgrading can extend the life of a computer long after it was originally built.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

[ross549]

But people using Office 97 to 2003

 

Ouch. I don't even want to think of such a scenario. I don't think I would even want to support anything older than Office 2007 these days. Imagine the security problems....

 

Adam

[lewmur]

Hello,

 

I have a ThinkPad T42 (2004) and a ThinkPad T43p (2005) running Windows 7 tolerably. Both have 2GB of RAM and were upgraded with 60GB SSDs and 802.11n cards. The T42 is just using the basic SVGA driver. I would not want to use them for gaming, but they are great for running office-type productivity software, browsing the web, and other common tasks. I would imagine DVD viewing would be doable on the T43p, but I have not tried that yet.

 

Just because a computer is old doesn't mean that it is useless, and some judicious upgrading can extend the life of a computer long after it was originally built.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

Yes, you can "extend the life" of "old" computers. But do you really want to spend several hundred dollars buying Win 7 and a late edition of Office, to extend the life of a notebook worth about $100? When you can extend it with Linux and LO for nothing? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[raymac46]

Yes, you can "extend the life" of "old" computers. But do you really want to spend several hundred dollars buying Win 7 and a late edition of Office, to extend the life of a notebook worth about $100? When you can extend it with Linux and LO for nothing? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Yep this is the whole point of Linux for older folks. They simply don't want to or can't buy new hardware. In a perfect world they could go get a new machine but often they cannot afford it on a senior's income without making some other sacrifice.

Given the fact that they will now be faced with a learning curve to use Office 2013 and Windows 8, I don't see that it's going to be any harder for them to pick up Linux, especially if they have familiar browser and email programs.

My wife moves seamlesssly from Linux Mint to Windows 7 but I use Chrome and Firefox on both machines. I also use Thunderbird, but I'm beginning to see less reason to run a standalone email program when it's all browser based anyway these days.

We've used FOSS office programs for years and just saved in an older MS Office format for compatibility. My wife does all the minutes of meetings for her volunteer organization in Libre Office.

Edited November 15, 2013 by raymac46

[Guest LilBambi]

Actually if a old computer can meet the needs admirably for the type of tasks needed and Windows needs to be used because of the type of programs used or the person really is adverse to the change and since Windows 7 will still be an active choice till 2020, then it is a very cost effective choice FOR THAT USER.

 

All things have to be considered including whether the speed of the machine after the upgrade will be livable for the type of person the client is. I have some really patient clients that might think it is viable for them, but I also have some very impatient clients that it would not be viable for them today, much less a couple years out when the heaviness of the OS, security programs and other needed Windows programs would become a major annoyance to them.

 

Also when one is thinking of Office type software on such an older system, and since Office 2003 will be out the door along with Windows XP come April 2014...just a few months from now, considering alternatives and the type of use people make with office type software is an important thought. If you only use office software for your own use and you don't have to worry about total compatibility with others, then LibreOffice or OpenOffice could be viable for most needs. Using Office Web Apps may fill in where a compatibility issue might arise if the document is not too complicated.

 

But if the use of office software is often or extensively used in cooperation with or shared editing, etc of documents, one really would want to use a current version of Microsoft Office.

 

Again frustration levels of the people are paramount and need to be high on the list of concerns during these types of upgrade considerations are weighed.

[ross549]

Yeah... I have a user that is seemingly incapable of learning anything new. She had a rash of learning back in 98-2000, and since than has not taken the time or been able (hard to say which) to learn anything new. I think she's still on xp, but does have an iPhone/iPad.

 

Switching her office suite, for example, would be disastrous. She knows that x widget is contained in the Y menu, etc. She even uses stationary in her email! *puke*

 

Adam

[goretsky]

Hello,

 

Oh, I could have installed Linux or BSD on either ThinkPad. I just had the Windows 7 and Office 2010 licenses lying around, unused, so I thought I should install them on something.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

Yes, you can "extend the life" of "old" computers. But do you really want to spend several hundred dollars buying Win 7 and a late edition of Office, to extend the life of a notebook worth about $100? When you can extend it with Linux and LO for nothing? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[raymac46]

I have in my "computer museum" a 2005 era Dell Optiplex GX620. This machine has an early but high end dual core Pentium D, 3 GB of RAM, and I installed an Nvidia 8400GS low profile video card in it. Right now it dual boots XP Pro and Linux.

This machine would have no problem whatsoever running Windows 7 32 bit as the video card supports up to DX10. It's powerful enough otherwise, But I don't have a copy of Windows 7 available and I would hesitate to invest $100 in such an old piece of hardware.

Many of the folks I encounter around here that are running Windows XP do not have anywhere near the quality of this system. They have old AMD Athlon XP CPUs, 256 MB of RAM, outdated VIA graphics etc. For some of these machines there is no upgrade path at all.

[raymac46]

As far as Libre Office formatting goes, my wife has used it extensively, and after I was careful to set it up to save in Microsoft Office format, she has shared stuff with a rather large mailing list and we've never had a complaint about garbled or unreadable documents. Granted these are fairly simple word processor docs.