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Is Microsoft losing it?


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#76 OFFLINE   Gary

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 10:52 AM

View PostStryder, on Mar 30 2006, 09:12 AM, said:

I personally don't see the delay as anything more than typical as far as software development goes. You can't realistically put an exact date on releases of a browser let alone an entire OS. You set ambitious goals and you hope you hit them, but that is all release dates really are ....goals. Not something that is etched in stone.
Not typical but a problem nonetheless. How many years have they been working on it? MS still does not have Xp right yet. They ought to fix one flawed OS before bringing on another one. There now are third party companies offering fixes. :w00t:

#77 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 02:29 PM

View PostMarsden11, on Mar 29 2006, 08:45 PM, said:

...Novell... Session over and no demo... Big mistake!
novell? gee, due to there horrific (lack of) marketing, i thought they died around v5.i like novell, or used to.  pretty common knowledge that ms hired a bunch of novell guys to get active directory for windows 2000.

View PostGary, on Mar 30 2006, 07:28 AM, said:

I don't believe that one could say that Marsden is the typical MS end user.
:whistling:

View Postlewmur, on Mar 30 2006, 08:41 AM, said:

If this was typical we would have recieved Win95 in 2000.
:w00t:
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#78 OFFLINE   daihard

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 03:01 PM

View PostGary, on Mar 30 2006, 05:28 AM, said:

I don't believe that one could say that Marsden is the typical MS end user.
Oh?  :thumbsup:

View PostStryder, on Mar 30 2006, 06:12 AM, said:

I personally don't see the delay as anything more than typical as far as software development goes. You can't realistically put an exact date on releases of a browser let alone an entire OS. You set ambitious goals and you hope you hit them, but that is all release dates really are ....goals. Not something that is etched in stone.
Funny how Microsoft publishes books about managing software projects... :hysterical:

#79 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 06:13 PM

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I don't believe that one could say that Marsden is the typical MS end user.
Marsden is an exceptional MS end user, well-versed in both hardware and software (he is very good at it). The typical MS end user doesn't understand what an operating system is. Sure, they notice the words Windows and Microsoft here and there, but they didn't get a computer to waste time wondering what those words stand for, much less for knowing operating system versions. They just don't lead computer-centric lives like most in the computer-related industry do.

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Funny how Microsoft publishes books about managing software projects...
Their current problems probably have to do with organizational culture and managing people, something systems-minded people usually overlook or take for granted. Peachy thinks its 'senility'; I think it is 'fatigue'. Well, let's see if the reorganization restores and lengthens MS lucid intervals or reenergizes its workforce.

#80 OFFLINE   Gary

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 09:21 PM

View Postb2cm, on Mar 30 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

Marsden is an exceptional MS end user, well-versed in both hardware and software (he is very good at it). The typical MS end user doesn't understand what an operating system is. Sure, they notice the words Windows and Microsoft here and there, but they didn't get a computer to waste time wondering what those words stand for, much less for knowing operating system versions. They just don't lead computer-centric lives like most in the computer-related industry do.Their current problems probably have to do with organizational culture and managing people, something systems-minded people usually overlook or take for granted. Peachy thinks its 'senility'; I think it is 'fatigue'. Well, let's see if the reorganization restores and lengthens MS lucid intervals or reenergizes its workforce.
That is what I meant.

#81 OFFLINE   Stryder

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 12:15 AM

View PostGary, on Mar 30 2006, 09:52 AM, said:

Not typical but a problem nonetheless. How many years have they been working on it? MS still does not have Xp right yet. They ought to fix one flawed OS before bringing on another one. There now are third party companies offering fixes. :hysterical:
No software/OS ever written is flawless. Never has been, never will be. While perfection should be the goal, it is not obtainable. I am not making excuses for MS, just stating the facts about software development in general. I am a huge fan of FF, linux, Mac, phpBB, etc. But I will be the first to tell you that they all have their own issues and always will, just like every other major software undertaking.And just so you know, I am no particular fan of MS, its software and especially not a fan of Vista. It will never be my primary OS, although I will continue to have it installed on a secondary PC just so I can keep up with my customer base. I am just talking about the realities of software development and computing as it exists in this day and age.

Edited by Stryder, 31 March 2006 - 04:48 AM.


#82 OFFLINE   Marsden11

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 03:23 AM

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Marsden is an exceptional MS end user, well-versed in both hardware and software (he is very good at it).
Thanks, but just a bit overstated there. I know many who are way smarter than myself when it comes to Windows.I think the real issue at MS is how they are managed. If you have ever managed people in any business environment, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It is nearly impossible to get diverse individuals to come together and agree on anything let alone build an operating system. There are so many small groups that comprise the bulk of Vista code development that it becomes very easy to get lost in the big picture. Then you have the dependencies between the groups. A single group of a few developers could be having issues that holds up many other groups. Very easy to snowball out of control. 24 months ago they threw the beginning Vista code out the window and started over. That is a pretty gutsy thing to do in the middle of OS development. Admit you screwed up and start over. There were "costs" as a result of that wholesale change of direction. WinFS got tossed but not forgotten. It will arrive as a free Service Pack next year and be backward compatible with XP. That MS screw-up becomes a positive gain for millions of XP users instead of just for those who adopt Vista.Thinking of the diversity of forum members here, I don't believe there is much we could all agree upon with respect to software and OSes. We might come to an agreement on the color of the sky or that our planet is  mostly round and there is no oxygen in space.I can't think of anything more complex than creating an OS and getting it out the door, on schedule or otherwise.

Edited by Marsden11, 31 March 2006 - 03:24 AM.


#83 OFFLINE   daihard

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 03:31 AM

View PostMarsden11, on Mar 30 2006, 11:23 PM, said:

I can't think of anything more complex than creating an OS and getting it out the door, on schedule or otherwise.
If nothing else, I can agree with you on this one.  :hysterical:

#84 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 09:02 AM

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No software/OS ever written is flawless. Never has been, never will be...they all have their own issues and always will ...I am just talking about the realities of software development and computing as it exists in this day and age.
How right you are. You can as well include hardware/firmware development here. This is the golden Age of Patches and Updates.

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I think the real issue at MS is how they are managed. If you have ever managed people in any business environment, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It is nearly impossible to get diverse individuals to come together and agree on anything let alone build an operating system.
One can neatly program a project on paper, but it is theoretical and assumes all positives about human resource (that everyone is competent, will fall into line and accomplish work as projected). On the ground, inordinate cultural orientations, communication styles and technical skills and personal issues will become manifest at all levels of the organization as either sources of or barriers to resolving work problems. And, in the short term, habits are difficult to unlearn; attitudes almost impossible to modify.

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Thinking of the diversity of forum members here, I don't believe there is much we could all agree upon with respect to software and OSes.
Our community here is inclusive and hospitable where members enjoy differences as much as they celebrate commonalities.

#85 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 02:27 PM

View Postdaihard, on Mar 30 2006, 01:01 PM, said:

Oh?  :huh:Funny how Microsoft publishes books about managing software projects... :thumbsdown:
:hmm: so... they should read their own books? :w00t:

View Postb2cm, on Mar 30 2006, 04:13 PM, said:

The typical MS end user doesn't understand what an operating system is. ... much less for knowing operating system versions.
gee, even good ms office users don't have a clue about a file system (where'd my files go??)

View Postdaihard, on Mar 31 2006, 01:31 AM, said:

If nothing else, I can agree with you on this one.  :P
yup.
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