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Mint Debbie

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Bookmem

Decided to try the Debian Mint version "Debbie".  Install went without a hitch.  The part that took the most time was getting Win 10 in Vbox back up and running.  I don't use it that often so it had to go through the Windows Update routine.  What a mess!!  Everything else appears to be working great.

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securitybreach

Very cool :thumbsup:

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raymac46

Looks like Debbie will be based on Debian Buster so it should be pretty solid.

 

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raymac46

I tried Debbie in VirtualBox but I found it buggy. I had trouble with the Guest Additions and Chromium didn't work very well - couldn't sync and the display kept crashing. I fell back to Cindy and it seems a lot more stable. If you are trying it on the rails Debbie might be better.

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mhbell
Posted (edited)

I installed LMDE4 on one of my ssd disks and it runs great. I did get the codecs and other non free things that I use with no problem. transfered a bunch of stuff from mint 19.3 Will see how it goes. The only problem I had was there was no way during the install to tell it not to use the swap files on 5 other distros on the same disc.I decided to use it in case Ubuntu ever has problems with their repos or decides to cut mint off. Mint is my primary OS. I also have Siduction, debian 10, and  LXLE. I will keep the forum posted on how it goes.

Mel

 

Edited by mhbell
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abarbarian

Snapping at Canonical's Snap: Linux Mint team says no to Ubuntu store 'backdoor'

 

Quote

 

Mint gets fresh: 'A self-installing Snap Store which overwrites part of our APT package base is a complete NO NO'

The Mint developers are resistant, though, saying Snap comes with too much Canonical baggage, and in particular seems tied to the official Snap store. "When snap was announced it was supposed to be a solution, not a problem. It was supposed to make it possible to run newer apps on top of older libraries and to let 3rd party editors publish their software easily towards multiple distributions, just like Flatpak and AppImage. What we didn't want it to be was for Canonical to control the distribution of software between distributions and 3rd party editors, to prevent direct distribution from editors, to make it so software worked better in Ubuntu than anywhere else and to make its store a requirement," said Clement Lefebvre on behalf of the team.

"I don't think the points we're raising here are well understood by the community. I hope we'll talk with Ubuntu and the Snap project about this. We're very interested in your feedback as well. A self-installing Snap Store which overwrites part of our APT package base is a complete NO NO. It's something we have to stop and it could mean the end of Chromium updates and access to the snap store in Linux Mint."

June's Mint 20 won't ship with snap, will tell you where to get Chromium yourself

Those issues have not gone away. In a post yesterday, the developers said that "in the Ubuntu 20.04 package base, the Chromium package is indeed empty and acting, without your consent, as a backdoor by connecting your computer to the Ubuntu Store. Applications in this store cannot be patched, or pinned. You can't audit them, hold them, modify them or even point snap to a different store. You've as much empowerment with this as if you were using proprietary software, i.e. none."

 

 

Well done them there developers at Mint. I said years ago that I thought Ubuntu was and had similar aims to Microsoft, in that it wanted to be "the one" and that all roads would lead to "them". Why swap one master for another I expounded. An folk replied but look at all the good Canonical is doing for penguins, an yes they certainly have generated interest and use of the penguin, but at what cost to freedom. How Canonical run Ubuntu is up to them they have that freedom and if folks wish to shackle themselves to their train they are free to do so. However if you value freedom you might be better of sticking to a distro that uses Debian or some other os rather than Ubuntu as its base.

😎

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raymac46

If you're a Mint user like me, maybe it's a good idea to stay with LM 19 until this issue is hashed out. Usually I install both Chromium and Chrome - Chrome via Google's repo and Chromium from the distro's. I don't want any sneaky backdoor stuff though.

I believe that LM will eventually use Debian as its package base.

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securitybreach

I have been saying for years that Canonical was heading towards a closed ecosystem. For years, they have distanced themselves from Linux as a whole and tried to do their own thing. Loading search queries through Amazon years ago should of been there first hint at their goal.

 

Oh and they don't even mention Linux on the Ubuntu website.

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Hedon James

Agreed with everyone above.  When I first discovered Linux circa 2009, Ubuntu was the perfect distro for me.  It aligned perfectly with my user preferences, and outlook.  But every 2 years (each LTS release) they seemed to change something to move it further from ideal.  I was doing more & more post-installation modification to make things how I wanted.  9.04 and 10.04 were pretty much ready for me OOTB.  By 14.04 I had switched to Lubuntu.  But it was still Ubuntu based, and with Lubuntu's switch to LXQT, there was no upgrade path from 18.04 LXDE to 20.04 LXQT.  A fresh install was recommended; if support was needed, a fresh install was required.

 

I finally had enough.  If i had to reinstall again, it was the perfect opportunity to switch distros.  Debian 10 LXQT was there for the taking.  I'm out of the 'buntu's clutches and i've got 5 more years for Debian to convince me to stay.

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raymac46

I was a Ubuntu user from the very first time I tried Linux. I was looking for a Windows Me replacement on an old desktop, and a local computer shop owner gave me a CD with Dapper Drake on it. That was before I knew anything about ISOs and downloads.

I learned about wifi, went through numerous upgrades and used Ubuntu happily for years. When I first saw Linux Mint, I rejected it as just an Ubuntu knockoff with a green theme.

Then came GNOME 3. I switched to Mandriva but then they went to KDE 4. Not my style. Back to Xubuntu and Xfce.

I revisited Linux Mint and saw that they really wanted to make a fresh start with the Cinnamon desktop. I tried it out and I still like it. Maybe if MX Linux had been around I would have gone that way as a daily driver with Xfce. I never gave the Unity desktop any love, but to be honest I had moved past Ubuntu by the time it came out.

Obviously I still run Linux Mint, but it's moving away from Ubuntu and I think eventually to Debian. That's what I have done as well for my Thinkpad. Linux Mint Debian Edition isn't as slick as classic LM yet - but it can be.

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Hedon James

I probably should've given Mint Debian (LMDE) a longer look, but I prefer a larger and active community around a new distro to help me with troubleshooting, tips & tricks, etc...  Unfortunately, LMDE appears to have a limited user base.  But it DOES make it easier, IMO, to install some of the proprietary offerings that Debian seems to discourage.  So maybe when I'm better versed and familiar with the Debian way, perhaps LMDE will be a better fit for me.  I'm open to it, at least...

 

And while Mint just doesn't do it for me, I do like the way they run their distro.  They seem to be more apt to listen to user-feedback and act upon it.  Clem Lefebrve seems to be fully engaged with his distro, and users on his forums, while Mark Shuttleworth seems to reside in the ivory towers at Ubuntu.  When the KDE3 vs KDE4 and Gnome2 vs Gnome3 wars were in full swing, Mint's response was to introduce a GTK2 Mate desktop as a refuge for disgruntled Gnome2 users, while they developed Cinnamon.  While neither was for me, I noticed that and absolutely respect it. 

 

And I firmly believe that the LMDE is a "safety net" in case of an issue with Ubuntu upstream.  And the more attention I see LMDE getting, the more I think Mint is getting closer to switching away from Ubuntu.  Smart move by Mint to hedge their bets like that.  Again, another move that I think is very smart, and respect.  So Mint has a lot going for it, IMO.  Just not a good fit for me....yet?!

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raymac46

@HJ I think you have made the right choice with Debian itself, especially since you like to tweak and respin your own custom distro. I believe that Debian with LXQt and XFWM4 is fantastic.

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Hedon James

So far, so good.  I do not regret it.  And while I continue to hear that LXQt is a "work in progress", and agree that it is, its current state is on par with LXDE as far as I'm concerned.  If it ceases development, I'm fine with it.  It it continues to improve, I can live with that too!  LOL!

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saturnian

I've mentioned here before that I ran Linux Mint in the pre-Cinnamon days. One thing that really turned me off was the "crippled" Synaptic. Here's a link to an old article that touches on that subject: https://fossforce.com/2014/10/synaptic-vs-update-manager-in-linux-mint/

 

I don't know what Synaptic in Mint is like these days; back then, I relied on it for Debian and Debian-based distros, and I was not at all pleased with what the Mint folks had done with it.

 

Later, I stopped using Synaptic and went to doing all of my package management from the command line. But by then I was already through with Linux Mint.

 

There were a few other things I wasn't happy with, as well. But I did think Mint was very nice, and I certainly enjoyed using it, back around something like 2007 to 2010. I kinda started feeling that I didn't want to use a Debian-based distro that was that removed from Debian. Yet I've kept Kubuntu installed here. And I'm somewhat annoyed about all this snaps stuff. I disabled it and removed everything. That's fine for 20.04; I'll have to see what the situation looks like 4 years or so from now. I may end up dumping Kubuntu, but I can worry about that later.

 

Linux Mint is a great distro. So is Ubuntu, and so are the Ubuntu Flavours. But it's good that we have lots of nice choices because a lot of times you reach a point where that "perfect" distro isn't so perfect for you anymore.

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raymac46

The current Mint GUIs for package maintenance and installation are pretty good. I have also used Synaptic to install stuff and it seems to work OK. For updates I just use Mint's Update Manager and have since I first installed it around 2013 or so.

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saturnian

Yeah. As Ken Starks wrote:

 

Quote

...The Mark All Upgrades button is completely missing. It wasn’t stripped out; from my understanding, Synaptic had been replaced by Mint’s version of Synaptic. You can search and install applications with it…you just can’t upgrade your system with it.

 

This burned me up. It's the kind of thing people would complain about if Canonical did something similar, seems to me. I remember spending some time trying to use the work-around that Starks mentioned, but as I recall, it would revert back to Mint's Synaptic when I updated. Mint's own updater worked fine but I wanted the old Synaptic back.

 

Another thing I didn't like, the "levels" setup. Do they still do that? Thought it was interesting that Mint devs felt the need for that, but that there was nothing like it in Debian or in Ubuntu. Over-the-top hand-holding, from my point of view.

 

I had been running both Ubuntu (and/or Kubuntu) and Mint for a few years (along with other distros). I felt like I was being forced to use Mint's update GUI when I didn't really want to do that. So for these and a few other reasons, I dumped Mint. I played around with live sessions when they came out with Cinnamon, and I've also spent some time with Cinnamon in Debian, but I found that I preferred GNOME 3, so there was really no reason for me to go back to Linux Mint. But I remember my excitement earlier, with "Bianca" (Mint 2.2) and "Daryna" (Mint 4.0). Linux Mint always seemed to install so easily!

 

I do like having access to the *Buntu repos, and that's one of the reasons I keep Kubuntu. Personally, I thought it was good that Linux Mint stayed with the Ubuntu base instead of switching to Debian. I did like the idea of LMDE but when I tried it out I figured I'd be better off with Debian instead.

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raymac46

As far as I know, the levels "feature" has disappeared. Haven't seen it in a while. I admit I did use it to "idiot proof" a few installs I did for others back in the day.

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raymac46

At the end of the day, Linux Mint is what it is. I find it great as an introductory distro for new users, or casual Linux users who might know Windows but need to use a Linux machine once in a while. I wouldn't expect it to appeal to anyone who wants to get deeper into the Linux ecosystem. It's easy to install, works well with both EFI and legacy systems, has most codecs and firmware pre-wired and even the most naive user can update as needed.

For a system I used exclusively, I would go with Debian - or Arch. I guess I have a bias towards easy to use distros since many people I run across these days have trouble printing out an email in Windows, let alone Linux.

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securitybreach
1 hour ago, raymac46 said:

At the end of the day, Linux Mint is what it is. I find it great as an introductory distro for new users, or casual Linux users who might know Windows but need to use a Linux machine once in a while. I wouldn't expect it to appeal to anyone who wants to get deeper into the Linux ecosystem. It's easy to install, works well with both EFI and legacy systems, has most codecs and firmware pre-wired and even the most naive user can update as needed.

For a system I used exclusively, I would go with Debian - or Arch. I guess I have a bias towards easy to use distros since many people I run across these days have trouble printing out an email in Windows, let alone Linux.

 

I agree. I always suggest LinuxMint or Fedora to new users.

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Hedon James
3 hours ago, securitybreach said:

 

I agree. I always suggest LinuxMint or Fedora to new users.

 

I find Fedora to be an unusual suggestion for new users.  Unusual in that I rarely (ever?) hear that one recommended to new users.  Just curious, what is your logic behind the Fedora recommendation?

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raymac46

I'm not sure I'd be comfortable recommending an RPM based distro to new users. When Bruno was here, choosing Mandriva/Mageia would have been a no-brainer. He could get you through any problem.

We do have an experienced Open SUSE user here. Fedora has probably the best implementation of GNOME3 if you swing that way. I really like the way Mageia does Plasma, but I'm not an RPM guy. Not like Bruno was, that is for sure.

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securitybreach

Well I suggest that as it is Redhat's desktop offering and they have a lot of support available and it is pretty stable. I am thinking of this from a new user's standpoint, not my own personal preferences.

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Hedon James

I'm not casting stones at you SB.  Just genuinely curious, as you're the first person I've heard recommend Fedora to new users.  I don't know you're wrong, and Fedora is a fine distro in its own right, and on the cutting edge of Gnome desktop.  And they do have a large user base and friendly forum (from what I have seen).

 

But the Fedora desktop is a testbed, perhaps best described as an RC version of their Red Hat Enterprise OS.  And there is no LTS version (that I'm aware of), so a new user WILL have to upgrade or reinstall, probably way before they have acquired the skills AND comfort level to do so.

 

OTOH, you are one of the most knowledgeable linux users I have come across on ANY linux forum.  So I figure you prolly know something I do not.  And I'm curious to know what you know.  Nothing more...no judgement here.  I have often said that Linux fragmentation is its greatest weakness, but also its greatest strength; and the ability to choose what one wants is unparalleled.  No doubt, Fedora is the perfect distro for some (many) users.  I just never contemplated that new users would be one of them.  FWIW...

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raymac46

My view here is that the perfect distro for a new user is the one your geeky Linux guru installs for you. Or the one that comes pre-installed on your new hardware from System 76 at al. My 95 year old friend Jean would be fine running and updating an Arch Linux install if I put it in for her.

About the only thing I would advise against with new users is setting up a dual boot with Linux and Windows. From my experience they'll keep using Windows and eventually mess up the bootloader and bork the whole system. Install on old hardware that needs a new O/S and if they don't have that pass.

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securitybreach
8 hours ago, Hedon James said:

I'm not casting stones at you SB.  Just genuinely curious, as you're the first person I've heard recommend Fedora to new users.  I don't know you're wrong, and Fedora is a fine distro in its own right, and on the cutting edge of Gnome desktop.  And they do have a large user base and friendly forum (from what I have seen).

 

But the Fedora desktop is a testbed, perhaps best described as an RC version of their Red Hat Enterprise OS.  And there is no LTS version (that I'm aware of), so a new user WILL have to upgrade or reinstall, probably way before they have acquired the skills AND comfort level to do so.

 

OTOH, you are one of the most knowledgeable linux users I have come across on ANY linux forum.  So I figure you prolly know something I do not.  And I'm curious to know what you know.  Nothing more...no judgement here.  I have often said that Linux fragmentation is its greatest weakness, but also its greatest strength; and the ability to choose what one wants is unparalleled.  No doubt, Fedora is the perfect distro for some (many) users.  I just never contemplated that new users would be one of them.  FWIW...

 

 

Actually Fedora offers a rolling release version as well. I just figure since it comes with only open source software, has an easy installer with lots of graphical tool and it is backed by Redhat; that it would be a good choice for a new user.

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saturnian
On 6/5/2020 at 2:00 PM, securitybreach said:

Actually Fedora offers a rolling release version as well. I just figure since it comes with only open source software, has an easy installer with lots of graphical tool and it is backed by Redhat; that it would be a good choice for a new user.

 

Makes sense. Anyway, lots of different types of new users (folks new to Linux). I don't think an "easy" distro is the best way for everyone.

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raymac46
Posted (edited)

There is a broad spectrum of users in any O/S, ranging from those who can't cope with the slightest change in appearance to those who install, maintain,configure,develop.

Probably there is less need for Linux to have easy distros because in general its users will skew to the geeky side. That said, if you have a multi user household where most folks cut their teeth on Windows, it doesn't hurt to be kind and run a distro that won't make them feel they've landed on an alien planet when they first see it. If you are running solo, the sky is the limit for geekiness. I would draw the line at Gentoo or Linux from Scratch, but that is just me. :w00tx100:

Edited by raymac46
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Hedon James
Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, raymac46 said:

There is a broad spectrum of users in any O/S, ranging from those who can't cope with the slightest change in appearance to those who install, maintain,configure,develop.

Probably there is less need for Linux to have easy distros because in general its users will skew to the geeky side. That said, if you have a multi user household where most folks cut their teeth on Windows, it doesn't hurt to be kind and run a distro that won't make them feel they've landed on an alien planet when they first see it. If you are running solo, the sky is the limit for geekiness. I would draw the line at Gentoo or Linux from Scratch, but that is just me. :w00tx100:

 

I would too, and have drawn that line.  Honestly, it sounds like an interesting challenge and a badge of honor:

https://youtu.be/IS7Og1zvdy8

 

But I don't have the kind of time needed to accomplish that, even under the best of circumstances.  And you just KNOW an issue is going to pop up at some point!  Maybe even more than one...

 

Edited by Hedon James
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raymac46

I take a rather "top down" view of Linux - understand its differences from Windows, know the general principles, its structure, what you need to do to install and maintain. That approach has allowed me to deal with enthusiast distros like Arch and Slackware.

I think that Gentoo would require a much more granular "bottom up" approach. If you have to compile and build every package on your system that takes a lot more attention to detail to avoid screw-ups. I'm getting too old for that, frankly. More power to the Gentoo buccaneers but I won't be joining their crew.

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securitybreach
1 hour ago, raymac46 said:

I think that Gentoo would require a much more granular "bottom up" approach. If you have to compile and build every package on your system that takes a lot more attention to detail to avoid screw-ups. I'm getting too old for that, frankly. More power to the Gentoo buccaneers but I won't be joining their crew.

 

It's not just that. At one time, it may of made sense to compile and optimize your system to gain every bit of performance but that's not the case and hasn't been for years now. I'm not going to spend two hours compiling Firefox for every update to gain 1 microsecond of performance that my human body can't recognize.

 

Basically it's not worth the time or effort to compile packages from source unless it's for compatibility reasons and that's rare as the kernel supports most hardware. Even then, you would compile one package.

 

Today's software has not caught up with the advancement in the hardware area.

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