Culling and Banning some Threads.

[Ozidave]

I think this says it about as good as needs to be said.

Here all registered users can create topics to talk about different issues. But, there are rules.Rules of what topics are not allowed here:No Politics - If you want to discuss politics there are many websites for that. This is not the place.No Religion - There are many sites for people to go to discuss religion.No topics created that will put down people of other cultures, ethnic backgrounds, gender or sexual preferences.These rules are here to keep this site from being a Slashdot type of site. This is a community site who's main reason is for helping other users. In order to be a site that makes all members and visitors feel welcome and get help from, this site needs to remain neutral.

The subjects above divide Nations, families, Brothers and Sisters... And whether you like it or not, it's also dividing this Community at Scot's. There is no such thing as an 'amiable' discussion on these subjects, it always ends up creating disharmony and disrespect between the participating individuals, and from the onlookers or 'newbies' for that matter.And unfortunately those attitudes spill over into the rest of the Community, and as a result affect the purpose of this whole forum.Yea! I know.... we're all Grown-Ups and don't get angry over 'other' people's opinions on the above subjects.Pig's might fly too..................

[ibe98765]

Yup, just keep your head down, mind your mending and the don't let the real world intrude on your version of reality. That's how YOU like it, so that's how EVERYONE should like it, right? Ever heard the term "well-rounded" or "Renaissance Man"? Yeah, yeah , yeah... Everyone knows you can find non-tech discussions elsewhere on the net. However, few go in search of them on their own. And anyway, it is convenient to be able to discuss certain issues from one place and to LEARN MORE about the people who post here, that some have other interests and interesting points of view outside of geek issues.Clearly, there is an interest in having these discussions HERE because they keep popping up over time in the Water Cooler (aptly named). So the moderators made a wise decision to create a separate forum area for such discussions. YOU don't have to go there nor do you have to read anything or everything posted there. It's YOUR own choice. We've reached a sad state of affairs in this world when people think that discussing and perhaps disagreeing on current event issues results in "disharmony" and "disrespect". Just "bury your head in the sand" and "tend to you hoeing" and everything will be just peachy, right? :'(

[teacher]

Keep in mind that the PC &A has been an experiment to see how it works. I don't know that a decision has been made yet but there has been more need to moderate here than anywhere else on the forum it seems. It has not been an intellectual debate of topics. but rather a "let me get my point across and convince you atmosphere." The best bet would be for those that post to keep their posts from being inflamatory and avoid name calling or put downs of other folks. If everyone would do that, instead of being convinced they can change others, then it will be more likely to continue. :'(

[Peachy]

What I'd love is some good Socratic arguments. In other words, arguments using the Socratic method in which a someone aruges a position by asking the other person questions and by how they answer, logically flesh out the argument by asking more questions. :'(

[Ed_P]

That's how YOU like it, so that's how EVERYONE should like it, right?

Spoken by the man pushing his right wing views the hardest. Or maybe it's his left wing views. Few of us here know the difference, or care.Of course this opposing view will probably not sit well. Edited November 11, 2004 by EdP

[epp_b]

I agree with Ozidave. Let's get back to the techie-geeky-nerd stuff and leave the water cooler for clean, intriging, and funny stories :'(

[ibe98765]

That's how YOU like it, so that's how EVERYONE should like it, right?

Spoken by the man pushing his right wing views the hardest. Or maybe it's his left wing views. Few of us here know the difference, or care.Of course this opposing view will probably not sit well.

C'mon now, I'm not the one advocating throwing out the baby with the bath water because there are certain things I don't agree with. And I certainly hope you're not speaking for everyone, in that they wouldn't know the difference between left and right wing views. But anyway, if you truly don't care, then why spend so much time complaining? Why not just ignore whatever you don't agree with?

[ibe98765]

What I'd love is some good Socratic arguments. In other words, arguments using the Socratic method in which a someone aruges a position by asking the other person questions and by how they answer, logically flesh out the argument by asking more questions.

I'm good for that and I think it would be refreshing. Why don't you kick something off? The problem is that questions have to get answered. And some people don't like the answers or the facts.However, I fear that ANY discussion that results in conflicts with the views of a small minority here will set off their whining. I still don't know why they spend their time going into some place that they don't like though. Perhaps their just masochistic at heart? Or maybe they are just looking for something/anything to complain about? What's funny is that, as we all know, even in pure tech forums, you will find arguing, disagreement and flames all the time. People argue over open source software, Linux vs. MS vs. Apple, FF vs. IE vs. Opera, this program vs. that program, how crappy a company MS is, etc. etc. Some get absolutely religious about these subjects. I guess that's all right though. I say disagreement is part of human nature, learn to deal with it...

[Jeber]

The problem is that questions have to get answered.

Therein lies the problem, I believe. In true Socratic tradition, there are no answers. Each question should encourage more questioning, more thinking. "Answers" are the end of the discussion. Once someone feels they've "answered" the question, further discussion is pointless. Besides, most answers are actually just opinion disguised as objective fact. In reality, there are very few answers. But there are millions of questions. If we could stick to the questions, and not try to offer our answers, the discussion and the thinking can continue. Otherwise, we're simply providing a soapbox from which the loudest, most obstinate and opinionated speaker can proclaim themselves the "winner of the argument".This forum is ruled by consensus however, and if the majority opinion is that this experiment should be ended, and Scot agrees, it will be. Personally, I'd still like to hear more opinions on this topic before any final decision is reached.

[ibe98765]

How about doing like Jeopardy? Give us the answers first and we'll do the questions? And just because one person thinks they have the answer, doesn't mean that that is the CORRECT answer. So no, the questioning doesn't stop when AN answer is presented. Only when everyone agrees that there is only one possible answer.But given the all of 25 regulars we have here, I don't think it will take long to get a consensus. I'm fully confident though that the "squeeky wheels" will get their way. Children have proven this tatic to be very successful.

[Cluttermagnet]

Therein lies the problem, I believe.  In true Socratic tradition, there are no answers.  Each question should encourage more questioning, more thinking.  "Answers" are the end of the discussion.  Once someone feels they've "answered" the question, further discussion is pointless.  Besides, most answers are actually just opinion disguised as objective fact.  In reality, there are very few answers.  But there are millions of questions.  If we could stick to the questions, and not try to offer our answers, the discussion and the thinking can continue.  Otherwise, we're simply providing a soapbox from which the loudest, most obstinate  and opinionated speaker can proclaim themselves the "winner of the argument".This forum is ruled by consensus however, and if the majority opinion is that this experiment should be ended, and Scot agrees, it will be.  Personally, I'd still like to hear more opinions on this topic before any final decision is reached.

OK. Respectfully, guys, I think that all the heated debate should be allowed to continue. And I don't agree that it is spilling over very much at all into the other forums. In my view, Politics and Current Affairs is definitely serving a useful purpose. Scot's Forums continues to offer excellent technical venues elsewhere. Seems to me that if the dB level gets to be too much, it is really easy to tune out the Politics venue, or completely leave the Water Cooler. Take a break, go discuss computer topics in the other forums. But please let them both stay. I might add that I, personally, have found the Water Cooler to be quite entertaining, and I've used it as much if not more than the other forums. I find things mostly congenial, and have not gone into emotional overload personally as a result of anything I have experienced here. We should not smother debate or discourage occasional 'venting' any more than needed- mainly by enforcing 'no personal attacks' (first by gentle reminders) and also simply by reminding about and encouraging congeniality. I think the tone and the overall warmth of Scot's venue has been particularly noteworthy. I found a home here. I'd certainly like to see it work smoothly and fulfill its primary objective of being a Help forum, but I sure do think that off-topic chat has been most worthwhile! And it has had a big part in setting the overall tone. The Water Cooler was both well-named and well-conceived. BTW one of the hallmarks of the current US admin has been an excessive squashing of debate. Let's hew to a higher standard here by allowing it. "The only kinds of fights worth fighting are those you are going to lose, because somebody has to fight them and lose and lose and lose until someday, somebody who believes as you do wins. In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing - for the sheer fun and joy of it - to go right ahead and fight, knowing you're going to lose. You mustn't feel like a martyr. You've got to enjoy it." -- I.F. Stone

[nlinecomputers]

I'm of mixed feelings on this. I, personally, enjoy the Political sub forum but it appears to me that the more often that IBE posts the less often others post in the entire forum. I don't want this to be a bash against IBE but he has posted a thread wondering why the board is having a low number of regulars that post on it. I think this forum isn't being ignored by those uninterested in it and is driving away all the tech talk. It is very hard to call this a tech forum when you list the new posts for the day and find 4 to 5 political topics active and only 1 to 2 tech ones.If there was a way to filter out forums that you don't want to view then maybe it wouldn't appear so stacked to others looking for tech info. I suspect that most users are only casual users and wouldn't take time to setup and turn on such filters.

[Gary]

I think it attracts more people to the Forum. A great deal of people on the NET like to discuss Politics. One has to keep an open mind and respect other peoples thgoughts and attack the messege and not the messenger.

[ibe98765]

I'm of mixed feelings on this.  I, personally, enjoy the Political sub forum but it appears to me that the more often that IBE posts the less often others post in the entire forum.

That would make for an interesting statistical study. And I doubt you could prove any statistical correlation.

I don't want this to be a bash against IBE but he has posted a thread wondering why the board is having a low number of regulars that post on it.

If you do a search, you'll find that I posted a similar thread some time back. The lack of new blood or repeat visits here has nothing to do with this new forum. It has been an ongoing problem. There are other tech forums that have hundreds of people posting daily. Given that this is generally a friendly place, I don't know why people don't stick here, why they come and they go. But it is something that has been occurring for a long time. I personally go out of my way to post things that I think are interesting THROUGOUT many of the forum sections here, trying to create more interest, more participation and grow the community. You'll notice that many of the threads I start are the ones that generally get a lot of participation. But it doesn't seem to spark others. Without vigorous member participation and new recruitment, we have become an insular community. The regulars know each other (our online persona's anyway) and with limited new blood, there aren't many new tech questions. Like the stereotypical old married couple, we know each other so well that we don't talk that much. We each read our section of the newspaper at the table and every now and then, we'll point out something interesting to the other and start a short conversation...

I think this forum isn't being ignored by those uninterested in it and is driving away all the tech talk.  It is very hard to call this a tech forum when you list the new posts for the day and find 4 to 5 political topics active and only 1 to 2 tech ones.

Umm, who's fault is that? Each person makes their own choices. If they don't enjoy or want to participate in the new forum, then it is there duty to control themselves. No one can do it for them. Again, I don't think the problem is the new forum (which isn't that easy to find anyway). If nothing else, at least the new section has generated some more participation.

[FuzzDuckie]

I think it attracts more people to the Forum. A great deal of people on the NET like to discuss Politics. One has to keep an open mind and respect other peoples thgoughts and attack the messege and not the messenger.

While this may be true, one has to wonder if some people who register...register solely for the PCA forum rather than the tech part or the overall forum and I assume that Scott's forum IS for tech/computer purposes.I'd hate to see the forum overrun by people whose sole purpose is the political forum and/or to flame over there thus causing the moderators to spend MORE time moderating/monitoring ONE subforum over the rest of them...Its a fine line but I'd hate to see Scott's "ideas/dreams" trampled by a everexpanding subforum that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT take over and obliterate the tech subforums.

[Ed_P]

The subjects above divide Nations' date=' families, Brothers and Sisters... And whether you like it or not, it's also dividing this Community at Scot's. There is no such thing as an 'amiable' discussion on these subjects, it always ends up creating disharmony and disrespect between the participating individuals, and from the onlookers or 'newbies' for that matter.[/quote']Agreed.

Everyone knows you can find non-tech discussions elsewhere on the net. However' date=' few go in search of them on their own.[/quote']Gee I wonder why? Could it be everyone isn't interested?

it is convenient to be able to discuss certain issues from one place

It used to be convenient to discuss technical issues here. It's too bad a few have changed that for their own personal convenience.

Clearly' date=' there is an interest in having these discussions HERE because they keep popping up over time in the Water Cooler (aptly named).[/quote']Yes' date=' and the originator in almost every case is the person who has 39% of his posts in the Water Cooler.

I'm not the one advocating throwing out the baby with the bath water because there are certain things I don't agree with.

Strange most of the articles you cite advocate doing that over the recent election.

why spend so much time complaining?

I'm simply doing what you wanted' date=' thinking and voicing my opinion.

I still don't know why they spend their time going into some place that they don't like though.

It's the only way we know of fighting weeds.

People argue over open source software' date=' Linux vs. MS vs. Apple, FF vs. IE vs. Opera, this program vs. that program, how crappy a company MS is, etc. etc. Some get absolutely religious about these subjects. I guess that's all right though.[/quote']Yes, that's what people do in a technically orientated forum.

I'm fully confident though that the "squeeky wheels" will get their way. Children have proven this tatic to be very successful.

Well' date=' you have been squeaking a lot of late.

I think this forum isn't being ignored by those uninterested in it and is driving away all the tech talk. It is very hard to call this a tech forum when you list the new posts for the day and find 4 to 5 political topics active and only 1 to 2 tech ones.

Exactly.

I personally go out of my way to post things

Please don't try so hard.

I'd hate to see Scott's "ideas/dreams" trampled by a ever expanding subforum that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT take over and obliterate the tech subforums.

Me too.

[FuzzDuckie]

QUOTE (ibe98765) I'd hate to see Scott's "ideas/dreams" trampled by a ever expanding subforum that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT take over and obliterate the tech subforums. Me too.

Just to clear something up....That was me who said the above not IBE. Edited November 12, 2004 by Jeber

[Jeber]

This isn't a thread about personalities. Please don't use it to discuss each other. The topic is the Politics and Current Affairs forum. Thanks.

[Cluttermagnet]

I think this says it about as good as needs to be said.The subjects above divide Nations, families, Brothers and Sisters... And whether you like it or not, it's also dividing this Community at Scot's. There is no such thing as an 'amiable' discussion on these subjects, it always ends up creating disharmony and disrespect between the participating individuals, and from the onlookers or 'newbies' for that matter.And unfortunately those attitudes spill over into the rest of the Community, and as a result affect the purpose of this whole forum.

Dave, you're a great contributor to these forums, including the Water Cooler, but your input above deviates not one bit from what you personally find so upsetting. Absolutes such as "... no such thing as an amiable discussion..." and "...it always ends up creating disharmony..." speak of a strongly held viewpoint with no room for discussion. Personally, I respectfully disagree with both those assertions. 'Hot' political topics can create both harmony, among like-minded folks, and disharmony among those of different viewpoints. There really are very few things in this world which are 'always' or 'never'. Beware absolutes. The real world is made up mostly of all those subtle gradations of grey between any two extremes.Some personally-directed comments are in evidence in this thread now, and have certainly been seen in others over the months. We should best try to avoid that. But kill off all the spirited debate in here? I sure hope and pray not. As I see it, life is intrinsically a struggle. Not all struggle is bad, BTW. My favorite aspect of struggle is that some of it is done in the context of friendships and love relationships, and much of it is not necessarily unpleasant or bad. Archimedes said to give him enough lever and he could move the world. A bit overblown, true, but the idea of levers can be instructive. To get some desired movement, we need several things. We need some force and some agent that applies that force. We need an object to 'struggle' against (move). And we need a lever and a fulcrum. I think that we can view the dialectic in our arguments as the lever and fulcrum parts, perhaps. We give each other leverage, which we all would lack in isolation. Another unrelated metaphor- we also give each other 'traction' in a similar way.I have often viewed the comings and goings of others in my own life as people being 'sent', as needed, to 'struggle' with me. We need each other. Man is a very creative, environment- changing, and socially- organized species. We're not so much when alone, and are so very much more in combination. Just look at the incredible specialization of labor among humans, and the very interesting lives we live as a result! A little strife will not kill us. In fact, it will harden us, hopefully, in some positive ways, and at the same time soften us in equally positive other ways. We live surrounded by chaos and entropy, yet things are slowly becoming more organized among humans. I see some positives and some hope for the future. We need each other to struggle with, as I see it.

[Ozidave]

always ends up creating disharmony..."

I respectfully disagree with both those assertions. 'Hot' political topics can create both harmony, among like-minded folks, and disharmony among those of different viewpoints.

Hi Cluttermagnet,Exactly my point.Politics my Friend is usually a question looking for an argument. Depending on who poses the question and whether or not it's amongst people who hold the same viewpoint. Usually it isn't, because then the question would have no purpose for debate.The same can be said about Religion and Homophobia.

[Ozidave]

Yup, just keep your head down, mind your mending and the don't let the real world intrude on your version of reality.  That's how YOU like it, so that's how EVERYONE should like it, right?  Ever heard the term "well-rounded" or "Renaissance Man"? 

Let's be real Ibe, 50% of the American population alone think that the 'Wrong' man was elected as President.And whatever YOUR politics are 50% may come here and agree with YOU... the other 50% will come here to either argue their point or NOT bother to come here at all.100% of them will come here to talk computers and hopefully some of them will stay and spread a little humour around the place to go with it; And refrain from the 'seriousnous' of life that we deal with everyday from many other sources, or just to relax a little amongst 'friends' and not rake over the days problems.So the options are 50% arguing with the other 50%, or a 100% not arguing at all. It's easy for me.... I come here to relax and enjoy likewise company and avoid the Political Forum like a plague.... I don't have any sugar-coated opinions that I would like to shove down someone elses throat until they either gag or retaliate in kind.

[ibe98765]

100% of them will come here to talk computers and hopefully some of them will stay and spread a little humour around the place to go with it; And refrain form the 'seriousnous' of life that we deal with everyday from many other sources, or just to relax a little amongst 'friends' and not rake over the days problems.So the options are 50% arguing with the other 50%, or a 100% not arguing at all.

So there hasn't been any arguing or flames about about what software is the best, whether MS is the devil incarnate, whether FF is better than IE, whether open source makes sense or not. whether nitrogen in tires is a good idea, whether posted jokes are off-color or not, etc., etc.? You need to remove those rose colored glasses because they are blocking your view of reality! The bottom line is - you're OK with tech "arguments" but not political or life ones, so of course, we should all conform to what you like and your world view, right? Perhaps you should consider starting your own forum where you can impose YOUR view of what is right, what is wrong, what is OK and what is not OK on everyone else? :'( I stick by the mantra of "live and let live". If you don't like certain subjects or discussions, then stay out of them and go busy yourself with something else. Why is that so hard to do?

[Ozidave]

I don't believe in a Utopian world Ibe, there will always be petty arguments about this or that no matter where one is or goes.Politicking on the other hand is just one long continous argument about people's personal opinions and preferences. Once you attack that personality, you create an enemy.

I stick by the mantra of "live and let live". If you don't like certain subjects or discussions, then stay out of them and go busy yourself with something else. Why is that so hard to do?

Shall I close the door behind me??? I thought this was an open Forum where the subjects being discussed would not be offensive to anyone.Or is this your private little corner?.

[Arena2045]

Perhaps you should consider starting your own forum where you can impose YOUR view of what is right, what is wrong, what is OK and what is not OK on everyone else?

Watch what you say IBE... the same could be directed right back at you.---This topic is really going no where... just a vicious cycle going around and around.---Just an FYI: The Moderation team is discussing wether or not we should keep the current form of the P&CA forum, or pull it for something else. Ultimately its Scot's decision. But everyone knew that the P&CA forum was established on a TRIAL basis. Edited November 12, 2004 by Arena2045

[Ozidave]

This topic is really going no where... just a vicious cycle going around and around.

What did you expect Arena, it's about politics..... The subject that divides a Nation and puts everyone at odds with each other. :'(

[Peachy]

In a truly democratic world, politics isn't about scoring points and personal attacks. It's not even about those professional clowns people elect every 4 years. Real politics is the discussion, give-and-take of informed debate and consensus-building among citizens in their communities trying to decide policies that affect their lives, well-being, and security. I'm afraid we don't exist in a political world anymore. Politics can't exist without democratic institutions and we neither have them in place and the ruling plutocrats will see it kept that way. That's why the recent U.S. presidential election does not improve the chances of democracy anytime soon. That's why the PC&A Forum is misnamed: it should be called the Debating Club Forum...

[Guest Paracelsus]

So there hasn't been any arguing or flames... whether nitrogen in tires is a good idea

HEY!!! Leave me outta this, will ya?

[ibe98765]

Watch what you say IBE... the same could be directed right back at you.---This topic is really going no where... just a vicious cycle going around and around.

No, I would beg to differ. While I have strong opinions and no hesitancy in expressing them, I don't believe that I have ever advocated shutting off a discussion because I didn't agree with someone's opinions or point of view. That is what is being so transparently attempted by some and is really the crux of this matter.But you are right, we are going around in circles. As I said some point back, I fully expect the sub-forum to be closed. It's just so much easier to pacify the few squeaky wheels and return to the status quo [shrug]. But doing this won't change or help change anyone's opinions nor will it help make the world a better place. It will just be a return to the usual modus operandi of "don't ask, don't tell" and "I'm OK, you're OK". We can all get on with our lives in our little corner of Smallville...

[Jeber]

To be fair, I've heard no one advocate ending this experiment simply to shut up those with whom they disagree. Many people just don't enjoy contentious discussions of any type, and don't want to see us provide a venue for them here. If we were discussing issues rationally and politely, I doubt there would be any dissension. But seeing as how, for some reason that still escapes my understanding, many people cannot debate a subject without becoming defensive, offensive and argumentative, many if not most members would rather we not encourage this poor behavior...as we haven't the time or ability to correct it.

[Grasshopper]

I was one of the backers of the political forum in the beginning. I've seen it work out very well on the other forum I spend a lot of time on. It seemed that there, even though there were bumps in the road and some name-calling, no one really got all huffy like this. But what Jeber said about not wanting contentious discussions is hitting home to me. It seems that this bunch of net users are of the type to not benefit greatly from a forum like this. Others do OK. So I'm changing my tune on this issue. I'd be happy to see the political forum go away. The only caveat I have to that is that if the forum goes away, so should ALL political discussions, which should prolly include religion and gay/lesbian issues or any other issues of an inflamatory nature. Like someone said earlier, it's a tech forum....keep it that way.To end my part in this discussion, I have, more than once, thought of not visiting SFNL forum anymore, due to this issue. Sure, I could just stay away from the political forum, but I have contributed monetarily to the SF cause and could not bring myself to go away. It's just not that simple. And I thought it was very simple when I was a strong proponent of the political forum. So, in my truly humble opinion, I think we should drop the forum and allow our very capable moderators and Scot to determine what topics to allow. This forum is not a democracy. Scot runs the place and what he says, goes, with the help of Arena, Jeber, Fran and all the mods. Whatever they decide, I support.[/opine]