Hedon James Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 Interesting stuff about pacman, Yaourt & pacaur, but raises more questions from me. Since yaourt & pacaur do everything that pacman does, with same user flags, why not just use one of those instead of pacman? Is it a matter of "purity" of Arch...installation of "curated for Arch" apps? And what do you like about pacaur that made you choose it over yaourt? Was it a practical usage consideration, or simply user preference? And if user preference, how did pacaur get the nod, given that both are CLI tools (so I know it wasn't because of a more attractive GUI!) LOL! I'll install Octopi and see what that's all about. I'm looking for an Arch software center GUI. If I'm exploring a switch from Ubuntu to Arch based distro, I'm thinking of other users that I provide Linux instruction and support to. The lack of a software center would be a deal killer for some (MOST!) of those users. Then again, sometimes I want to thin the herd of those who receive support. They're just not getting it. Or maybe it's me... I'm trying to teach folks how to fish, but some of them only want to eat fish that someone else caught. Maybe switching to an Arch distro would send 'em running back to Windows. Then again, some already use Windows and STILL call me with computer issues even thought I've repeatedly stated "I don't know Windows anymore, and I don't have time to learn it...call GeekSquad." They still ask... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Interesting stuff about pacman, Yaourt & pacaur, but raises more questions from me. Since yaourt & pacaur do everything that pacman does, with same user flags, why not just use one of those instead of pacman? Is it a matter of "purity" of Arch...installation of "curated for Arch" apps? And what do you like about pacaur that made you choose it over yaourt? Was it a practical usage consideration, or simply user preference? And if user preference, how did pacaur get the nod, given that both are CLI tools (so I know it wasn't because of a more attractive GUI!) LOL! Some people use the AUR helpers only for AUR packages but most do like I do and use whatever frontend they like to do all of the package management. They are just frontends to pacman and makepkg anyway so the same thing is going on in the background AS far as pacaur versus yaourt, it was kind of an evolution for me. First I did things the manual way and then yaourt came out and automated things. Then packer came out to fix quirks about yaourt that people didn't like and then I moved to pacaur as it prompts you less than yaourt but still does the same thing. Plus I find it much faster than yaourt. This happen over the last 9 years of using Archlinux. I'll install Octopi and see what that's all about. I'm looking for an Arch software center GUI. If I'm exploring a switch from Ubuntu to Arch based distro, I'm thinking of other users that I provide Linux instruction and support to. The lack of a software center would be a deal killer for some (MOST!) of those users. Then again, sometimes I want to thin the herd of those who receive support. They're just not getting it. Or maybe it's me... I'm trying to teach folks how to fish, but some of them only want to eat fish that someone else caught. Maybe switching to an Arch distro would send 'em running back to Windows. Then again, some already use Windows and STILL call me with computer issues even thought I've repeatedly stated "I don't know Windows anymore, and I don't have time to learn it...call GeekSquad." They still ask... Well Archlinux has never been geared towards the beginners anyway. Arch Linux is geared towards intermediate Linux users who like full control of their distro. These should summarize the Arch Way: Arch Linux defines simplicity as without unnecessary additions or modifications. It ships software as released by the original developers (upstream) with minimal distribution-specific (downstream) changes: patches not accepted by upstream are avoided, and Arch's downstream patches consist almost entirely of backported bug fixes that are obsoleted by the project's next release. In a similar fashion, Arch ships the configuration files provided by upstream with changes limited to distribution-specific issues like adjusting the system file paths. It does not add automation features such as enabling a service simply because the package was installed. Packages are only split when compelling advantages exist, such as to save disk space in particularly bad cases of waste. GUI configuration utilities are not officially provided, encouraging to perform most system configuration from the shell and a text editor...... Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems. https://wiki.archlin....php/Arch_Linux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 I did get yaourt installed by adding a PPA (didn't know THAT was possible with Arch!) and used yaourt to attempt an octopi installation, which failed. Not sure why...I'd have to read up on that...perhaps the PKGBUILD needs to be reconfigured for my installation? No biggie though, I found tkpacman and installed that instead. Both seem to be Arch's version of Synaptic. Cool...a LITTLE bit of familiarity. And I found a gnome-software in the repos. Looks like that could work, except the gnome theme overrides the Flux theme...not cool...and it shows applications installed that are NOT installed...a deal breaker. I understand the Arch philosophy, and I knew what it was when I started this...and I fully intended on pushing the envelope. While I'm doing this for MY interests, I'm also cognizant of the interests of those I provide tech support and instruction to. And maybe I just can't hammer Arch into a configuration that suits both MY wants/needs, as well as those less technical users who look to me. But that isn't going to stop me from seeing what I can do with it!!! Best case scenario...I can get an Arch distro into a form that is a viable alternative for me AND those who rely on me. Worst case scenario...I'll stick with the Debian/Ubuntu family, but armed with some new ideas gleaned from my Arch/Archbang/Flux experience! In the words of Austin Powers..."Yeah, baby"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 There is no such thing as a PPA on Archlinux, those are simply precompiled binaries like you get when you install a package from pacman. The only ones built from source per se (thats not really what they are doing) are the ones from AUR. The rest are simple binaries. You just used a custom repo to fetch a precompiled version of yaourt. See: Personal Package Archives (PPA) allow you to upload Ubuntu source packages to be built and published as an apt repository by Launchpad. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Best case scenario...I can get an Arch distro into a form that is a viable alternative for me AND those who rely on me. Worst case scenario...I'll stick with the Debian/Ubuntu family, but armed with some new ideas gleaned from my Arch/Archbang/Flux experience! In the words of Austin Powers..."Yeah, baby"! If that's what you want to do, then your in luck... Archiso is an easy tool to build custom Arch distros: Archiso is a small set of bash scripts capable of building fully functional Arch Linux live CD/DVD/USB images. It is the same tool used to generate the official images, but since it is a very generic tool, it can be used to generate anything from rescue systems, install disks, to special interest live CD/DVD/USB systems, and who knows what else. Simply put, if it involves Arch on a shiny coaster, it can do it. https://wiki.archlin...dex.php/archiso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 There is no such thing as a PPA on Archlinux, those are simply precompiled binaries like you get when you install a package from pacman. The only ones built from source per se (thats not really what they are doing) are the ones from AUR. The rest are simple binaries. You just used a custom repo to fetch a precompiled version of yaourt. See: Personal Package Archives (PPA) allow you to upload Ubuntu source packages to be built and published as an apt repository by Launchpad. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas Yep, this is what I did to get Yaourt: http://revryl.com/2013/07/11/yaourt-installation-arch-linux/ In my Debian-soaked brain, I equated this with PPA. Custom repo=Personal Package Archive. Just like my comments regarding a chimp with a swiss army knife, I'm also still learning the lingo! And truth be told, I don't know WHAT I want SB. I like the user-friendliness of the 'Buntus, and the larger user-base for troubleshooting, but getting tired of the bloated resource requirements of Unity and the mythical "convergence" being talked about since Ubuntu 11.04. I can solve the Unity issue with LXDE panels & customizations in Lubuntu, but Lubuntu is a 3-year LTS instead of 5-year like Ubuntu. So I might be looking at an Ubuntu mini- or server- base distro with LXDE and Fluxbox or Openbox to get the 5-year window. But if I'm going to all that trouble, what I'd REALLY like is a rolling release philosophy. And Arch is the cadillac of rolling release, IMO; but not sure I want to sacrifice my other wants/needs simply to acquire rolling release. That's just squeezing the bubble back and forth... I don't think there's a "perfect" distro for me, so I'm going to have to make concessions and compromises to get MY "best fit". And I need the hands-on pros & cons in order to get the whole picture, IMO. For instance, I'd heard of Fluxbox ages ago, and was aware of it, but was convinced that was for hardcore users and programmers, etc... But recent experiences customizing Openbox lead me to Fluxbox and I threw it on a mini-server just to tinker with it and I'm just in awe. Last week, the verdict was "not for me...no way", but this week I'm thinking "this could change my workflow for the better and be EXACTLY what I'm looking for." I never would've gotten to that place if I hadn't just rolled up the sleeves and gotten dirty playing with it. And so it is with Arch...I don't know that it's my answer, but I'm sure gonna run it down and I'm gonna know more than I do today! I can live with that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 I think what you most desire is full control to mold your system to your exact specifications and to be able to create a custom setup for anyone to use. Honestly, Archlinux is what you want as you can easily create a respin and you have full control over what is added to a blank slate versus removing things from a prebuilt environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted May 11, 2016 Author Share Posted May 11, 2016 I think what you most desire is full control to mold your system to your exact specifications and to be able to create a custom setup for anyone to use. Honestly, Archlinux is what you want as you can easily create a respin and you have full control over what is added to a blank slate versus removing things from a prebuilt environment. If it was for ME, and ONLY ME, you'd have just nailed the bulls-eye. But I'm thinking of my "other users" that I support, and for that reason I'm compelled to build a pretty versatile distro that is MOST things to MOST people. It may still be Arch, but I've got to find a way to get around the terminal for software installs. They're afraid of it and, truth be told, I don't want to support that, troubleshoot that, or deal with any issues that they create from a terminal. I'm certain they prefer a software center, and I would prefer to narrow the troubleshooting vector by limiting their options to mess something up; software center only seems like a win-win if I can figure it out. No rush...but I'm always looking forward. You've been a tremendous resource so far, and I appreciate that. So thank you! And thank you in advance for answering all the questions that I haven't asked yet! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Hehehe, no problem. I enjoy helping others with Linux as Bruno helped me along my path. It's all about giving back. Lots of archlinux derivatives use Octopi so it should work just fine even if it goes against the Arch Way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted May 11, 2016 Author Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) Hey Saturn, this is for you buddy...thanks to some ideas you provided, I have tweaked Fluxbox into a configuration that works well for me! Screenshot below, showing an lxpanel with launchers (Unity like), a tint2 panel with workspaces that hides (to replace hot corner/edges), skippy-xd spread (not shown), themed in Ambiance Blue to sorta resemble familiar old 'Buntu, tabbed terminals, a custom Fluxmenu that makes sense to me (and autoupdates with new software installations!), and some compton transparencies to help emphasize inactive windows (active windows are opaque), and blue drop shadows just cuz they look cool!. Even with all that, still responsive and nimble as heck in a VM, hovering around 135MB RAM in its default state from boot!!! I've still got some pieces/programs to assemble, and some mods and tweaks to make, but this broad brush setup would work for me now! Thanks for the inspiration Saturn! Edited May 12, 2016 by Hedon James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Looks nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Excellent set-up, Hedon James! I really like what you've done with the panels. I'm still using packer instead of yaourt, pacaur, etc. Seems to work out fine. I've only got a couple of things from AUR, though. I prefer Synaptic over any other package management GUI I've used, but pacman in Arch is easier for me than going to the command line in Debian and using apt-get, etc. And I've been running Debian for much longer than I've been using Arch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted June 7, 2016 Author Share Posted June 7, 2016 Still tinkering with Fluxbox, and still quite enamored. I think I'm going to include an Xsession option in my next remix that I've been working on. I've been hammering on Lubuntu Betas in my spare time for months now, and just waiting for a few spare moments to intersect with point release 16.04.1. LXDE and Openbox is a winning combination for functionality and lightweight, IMO, and was perfect for my vision...until Fluxbox came along. While Openbox is more "user-friendly" to the casual users that I provide support to; Fluxbox "fixes" nearly every issue that I had learned to "deal with" in Openbox. So I prefer Flux now, but Openbox needs to remain in place as an option for nearly everyone else. Fortunately, it is SO easy to create "LXDE skins" for aesthetics, and just have one of the 'Boxen invoke the LXDE skin for desktop appearance/paradigm. But I've digressed... About the only thing I don't care for in either 'Boxen is the "default" window button decorations. Not a huge deal, as I can "over-ride" the defaults with user-specified button decorations, but this is Linux and I'd like to change the defaults. Unfortunately, after too much wasted time web surfing & googling, I can't seem to locate the "default" location of the default window buttons. Of course, Openbox insists these buttons are *.xbm bitmaps, while Fluxbox insists they are *.xpm pixmaps. But I cannot seem to locate them anywhere on the system. Anyone know where to look for these graphical files? Or should I just stick with the tried & true method of over-riding the defaults with my preferred button decorations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 Update: I found the default Openbox window button xbm folder at /usr/share/doc/openbox/xbm, and sure enough, the default xbm files are there! So I CAN change the default window button decorations for Openbox! But I still can't find the folder for Fluxbox xpm pixmaps. STUMPED! Anyone know where the Fluxbox default xpms are stored? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Try: /usr/share/pixmaps/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 Try: /usr/share/pixmaps/ Thanks SB, but not there. I've never had such a difficult time tracking down a file/folder. "Classic" fluxbox styles that almost always come as default with a Fluxbox installation seem to never have a Pixmap or Wallpaper folder with the style; just a theme.cfg file only. I'm starting to think it's "baked in" to the window manager code itself. But I wish I could confirm or refute that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Have you tried in the config directory for fluxbox? Maybe ~/.fluxbox or ~/.config/fluxbox ? I have not ran fluxbox in almost a decade so my memory has faded but this might clue you in https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/fluxbox#Configuration Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 Yeah, I've been all over that wiki. and numerous fluxbox sites and sites for fluxbox theme/styles. the information just doesn't seem to be addressed ANYWHERE, and I just can't find those default *.xpm button files anywhere on my system(s); neither ArchBang nor Ubuntu. I've got 2 Ubuntu "test beds"; 1 with the default version 1.35 and the other is version 1.37 that I compiled from source. Can't find them on either....hmmmm.....source....maybe I can get a peek into the source files before they're configure/make/installed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 Looking into the source files, I think the window buttons are "baked into" the window decoration structure. There are several "WindowButton.o" related files which are "object" files, and can't be peeked into. But there are a couple of them, they're all located in the "SRC" folder, and I'm guessing these are the default Window Button decoration instructions/templates. I can't verify it with 100% certainty, but invoking Occam's Razor would suggest that is probably the answer. Openbox does something similar...provides default *.xbm files for ALL window buttons. Put an alternative *.xbm in your theme config and it over-rides the default. But Openbox puts the *.xbm defaults into a single folder tucked into an Openbox/Doc directory. Apparently, Fluxbox takes a very similar approach (makes sense, right?!), but doesn't place the default *.xpm files in an accessible place. Bummer. But the theme/style behavior is still the same. Provide an alternative and the alternative automatically overrides the defaults. It is what it is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 You could always do a: locate *.xbm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 You could always do a: locate *.xbm That's how I found the Openbox bitmap folder (OB uses *.xbm). Fluxbox uses *.xpm (pixmaps), which is how I found the usr/share/pixmap(?) directory; but those pixmaps seem to be for icons in menus. At this point I'm convinced they're "baked" into the FB software. Not 100% certain, but convinced... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 It could be but I still think they have to be sitting in a directory somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted June 9, 2016 Author Share Posted June 9, 2016 I would think also. But if they are, they're the best hidden files/folder in the history of Linux... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 I dug up this old thread (sorry!) because I finally got around to adding Fluxbox in Arch: This Arch installation has only Openbox and Fluxbox. I generally prefer Openbox, but then I find myself falling in love with Fluxbox all over again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 Man, I haven't played with Fluxbo (or openbox) in probably 10 years or more. Those were part of my journey to minimalism. I went from KDE 3.x to xfce to openbox to fluxbox to XMonad to i3. You get to a certain point where it has nothing to do with system resources but it is instead a mentality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 You get to a certain point where it has nothing to do with system resources but it is instead a mentality. Indeed. I have far less capable hardware than you do and I can run the most bloated desktop with no problem. It's a matter of horses for courses. I like Xfce a lot and it seems to be a good blend of efficiency and comfort. I just don't have the mindset to run the most minimal DEs. Besides I have other folks who want to use my machines and they wouldn't have a clue with some of these WMs. My wife has trouble turning off the machine even with Xfce. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted November 3, 2018 Author Share Posted November 3, 2018 Nice screenies Sat! I had previously tried naked OpenBox and Fluxbox, but didn't really "get it" until you re-introduced me. I guess it was "when the student is ready, the teacher appears". I still LOVE Fluxbox, and you can add PekWM into that category...they are very similar, but Flux config syntax is slightly easier "plain english" and there are a LOT more themes for Flux than Pek, so Flux gets the nod. If Flux went away (Wayland?) but Pek was still available, I could use Pek and be quite happy with that, but as long as Flux is an option, I'll be using Flux. Which makes me think of this question...what would I use if Flux or Pek (or Openbox) were no longer an option. It's a very real concern. History shows that the VHS/Betamax war was won, but not based on the technical merits (I backed Beta). And despite its lineage, the MS Zune was technically superior to the iPod in nearly every way, yet still lost. In each case, I backed the wrong horse, despite superior technical merits. Not sure it's a good analogy for desktop WMs, but I do have a history of choosing the superior product for the right reasons, only to make the wrong choice in spite of all that. WTH?! Point being, Wayland is on the horizon as a nearly useable everyday Xserver, with Lubuntu even identifying 20.10 as their projected switch date, 2 years after their first LXQt offering. As it stands today, neither OpenBox, nor Fluxbox, nor PekWM are Wayland compatible. Fortunately WMs in LXQt are extremely modular...just install the one you want, choose your WM from the pulldown menu in LXQt settings, logout, login, and your new session is now managed by your WM of choice. Besides Openbox, some of the more popular WMs in LXQt seem to be XFCE4 and Kwin, as they both have built-in compositors and LXQt devs are on record as not being comfortable with Compton's seemingly "dormant" status. Still works great, for now, but questionable for the future. The "Killer features" in Flux for me are Window grouping/tabbed windows and the right click/keychain floating root menu....wherever you are on the screen, click and there's your menu! Flux and Pek have both, while Openbox lacks the tabbed windows, which is why Flux and Pek get the nod. Furthermore, OB devs have traditionally shot down any feature requests for tabbed windows. They don't like it (forget the reason?) and have made it clear it's not happening. I can use OB in a pinch, on some of my other household computers, like my media server and set-top kodi boxes, and my recording studio computer, but not my production machines. It's too frustrating, as the tabbed windows are ingrained into my workflow. I've since learned that Kwin used to have tabbed windows, but removed them in an earlier KDE transition, but are considering re-implementing them. IF Kwin re-implements tabbed windows, that only leaves the floating root menu to be solved and Kwin could be a viable alternative. Is anyone aware of a root menu project that could be added to a desktop? Preferably Qt based? I saw this project for Plasma desktops, so it looks like it might fit the bill, but recent comments indicate it's not being updated and is broken. But even if this isn't the right project, this is certainly the concept I'm looking into: https://store.kde.org/p/998904/ So theoretically, IF Kwin restored its tabbed-windows functionality and IF plasma-custom-desktop was updated/patched to work on Qt desktops, I would have everything in a WM that draws me to Flux & Pek. I know there are other WMs with tabbed-window functionality, but it seems the combination of tabbed windows & right click/floating menu is quite rare. I guess tabbed windows doesn't surprise me, but I'm somewhat surprised there aren't more standalone menu applications for linux desktops. It seems everyone has different menu preferences and I'm surprised no one has developed a modular/standalone menu generator that can be customized for the preferences of the user and/or the desktop environment its being utilized on. Or maybe there is, but it's a secret amongst developers because they keep the best stuff a secret? But Flux was a secret until Saturnian whispered it in my ear. Are there any other WMs with tabbed-windows AND floating root menu functionality? Are there any modular floating root menu applications that I can install on ANY desktop and tweak to me liking? Share your knowledge! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 According to this, a few other window managers offer tabbed windows: https://en.wikipedia...window_managers I don't use that feature in Fluxbox very often, although I use tabbed windows within individual apps, like with Geany, and with terminal emulators like Terminator, xfce4-terminal, etc. I do set up a desktop right-click menu in KDE Plasma. I'm not totally satisfied with it, though; I'd like for it to be exactly the same Application Menu as what I use when I click on the panel's menu icon, but the right-click Application Launcher is a bit different: It doesn't show the application names! I'd prefer to see "LibreOffice Calc" instead of "Spreadsheet," for example. Anyone know how to fix that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abarbarian Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 Blimey all this huffin an puffin about features that have been around since time began. Window Maker has the tabbed windows and right click/keychain floating root menu.One day you all will realise what you are missing out on 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted November 4, 2018 Share Posted November 4, 2018 Blimey all this huffin an puffin about features that have been around since time began. Window Maker has the tabbed windows and right click/keychain floating root menu.One day you all will realise what you are missing out on Yeah, but they have not changed their interface since like 1998. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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