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"Security" or "aiding and abetting".


lewmur
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Govts have had the ability to "tap" phones for the last hundred years. But to hear Tim Cook, you'd think that the Judge's order to help the FBI to get the phone calls of a known terrorist was something new and "world changing". What is "world changing" is Tim Cook's arrogant attempt to help crooks and terrorist to hide their communications.

 

By NOT storing encryption keys in their co.'s database, Apple would have us believe that they have no ability to retrieve them. Or that to do so would create "undue hardship" on the co. Utter nonsense. Apple knows exactly where in the smartphones memory the ID is stored and the ID itself is encrypted. And Apple doesn't have to disclose that information to the govt in order to comply with the Judge's order. They could retrieve the key themselves and give it to the FBI. The fact is that Tim Cook and Apple want to deliberately thwart govt's ability to monitor the phone calls of criminals.

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securitybreach

Well on the other hand, I actually applaud him on his stance (amazing enough..considering my views on apple...).

 

They are not talking about simple phone calls but essentially they want the ability to decrypt the devices to look at the data on them.

 

The government essentially wants Cook to put a backdoor in iphones for the government to bypass all security if they wish. This is a slippery slope as now it's for the "terrorist" but eventually it becomes the whole argument that "if you do not have anything to hide, then why do you need security?" and that will make it easier for others to steal your information including credit card info, passwords or any other information that is on our phones nowadays.

 

Granted most of this is simply a PR stunt as we know that Apple already has such backdoors in place, like other companies do....

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Well on the other hand, I actually applaud him on his stance (amazing enough..considering my views on apple...).

 

They are not talking about simple phone calls but essentially they want the ability to decrypt the devices to look at the data on them.

 

The government essentially wants Cook to put a backdoor in iphones for the government to bypass all security if they wish. This is a slippery slope as now it's for the "terrorist" but eventually it becomes the whole argument that "if you do not have anything to hide, then why do you need security?" and that will make it easier for others to steal your information including credit card info, passwords or any other information that is on our phones nowadays.

 

Granted most of this is simply a PR stunt as we know that Apple already has such backdoors in place, like other companies do....

The "slippery slope" doesn't exist unless Apple DOES give the govt the ability to decrypt ALL data on ANY Apple device and that IS NOT what the Judge ordered. It requires "probable cause" for a Judge to order access to ONE or more PARTICULAR phones. And Apple can always appeal to another Judge to examine that "probable cause." And hackers can't get such an order to steal your credit card info.

 

Yes, Snowden DID steal info to which he shouldn't have had access. But the problem wasn't that the NSA was collecting META data, NOT conversations, but that they didn't lock down access to the data.

 

Again, what has CHANGED, is NOT the govt wanting MORE access. But, rather, Apple creating a NEW way for criminals to hide their activities.

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Doesn't actually seem to be a backdoor:

 

http://arstechnica.c...he-desired-key/

 

However, I tend to agree with those who feel this is a wedge issue for the FBI--once allowed, a precedent will be set. And what about the possible ramifications for the engineers who will be designing this one-shot, individualized code if for some reason it doesn't work properly and the data is destroyed?

Edited by ebrke
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Doesn't actually seem to be a backdoor:

 

http://arstechnica.c...he-desired-key/

 

However, I tend to agree with those who feel this is a wedge issue for the FBI--once allowed, a precedent will be set. And what about the possible ramifications for the engineers who will be designing this one-shot, individualized code if for some reason it doesn't work properly and the data is destroyed?

The precedent was set a hundred years ago. With a Judges order, the govt has the right to "tap" private communication taking place over a PUBLIC network. The FBI isn't asking for anything new. Just as "Ma Bell" was required to give assistance, and access to her equipment, to the FBI to monitor Al Capone's conversations.

Edited by lewmur
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IMHO: Since the owner of the device has given permission, I don't see why privacy is an issue.

If his/her employer owns the device, the perp doesn't have any expectation of privacy, whether or not there's a warrant.

 

The only issue I see is money. They're not asking for an existing record, that a clerk could pull from a file, they're asking for Apple to do some actual work requiring expertise.

Have they offered to pay for it?

Edited by Pete!
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The basic problem here is . How secure is the FBI network. Because If they start decrypting third party stuff .How long till they themselves are hacked .

 

This whole encryption thing is fraught with temptation .

Either way no sensible person keeps critical info on a HD or Cell..

 

Just a bunch of spooks spooking around justifying their humgous salaries...

 

 

As they say there are more ways to skin a rabbit than we ever thought of ..

 

That said I have to admit in today's climate the straights need all the co-operation they can avail of to defeat the turds

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The basic problem here is . How secure is the FBI network. Because If they start decrypting third party stuff .How long till they themselves are hacked .

 

This whole encryption thing is fraught with temptation .

Either way no sensible person keeps critical info on a HD or Cell..

 

Just a bunch of spooks spooking around justifying their humgous salaries...

 

 

As they say there are more ways to skin a rabbit than we ever thought of ..

 

That said I have to admit in today's climate the straights need all the co-operation they can avail of to defeat the turds

Another straw man. We're talking about ONE phone. The FBI isn't asking for access for every phone. Only those that a JUDGE has deemed as having "probable cause" to have evidence criminal activity. Every iPhone has a different encryption key. Revealing the key to one has NO bearing on any other phone. Edited by lewmur
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No matter how you slice it, it is a slippery slope.

 

When it is used as a precedent down the road, the rationale will not likely matter...

The slope can't be all that slippery when it has existed for over a hundred years.

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I am sorry I do not see the logic when it comes to personal data on cellphones.

Govt has always been able to get a warrant to search your home, your office, your car, your computer and your bank accounts. What makes your smartphone any different?
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Govt has always been able to get a warrant to search your home, your office, your car, your computer and your bank accounts. What makes your smartphone any different?

 

My understanding of the system is, if you lose or forget your password, Apple can't help you because the software is designed so passwords are not recoverable. For Apple to be able to retrieve passwords they would have to rewrite the software and require users re-enter their passwords into the new vulnerable version of the software. It's like a futuristic home or car so technologically advanced it is invulnerable to unauthorised access, even by tanks or atomic bombs.

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Govt has always been able to get a warrant to search your home, your office, your car, your computer and your bank accounts. What makes your smartphone any different?

 

My understanding of the system is, if you lose or forget your password, Apple can't help you because the software is designed so passwords are not recoverable. For Apple to be able to retrieve passwords they would have to rewrite the software and require users re-enter their passwords into the new vulnerable version of the software. It's like a futuristic home or car so technologically advanced it is invulnerable to unauthorised access, even by tanks or atomic bombs.

That simply isn't true and isn't what's even being discussed. It is the encryption key the govt wants.

It is a simple process to recover your Apple ID and reset your password even in iOS 9 and above. I've done it.

Edited by lewmur
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Govt has always been able to get a warrant to search your home, your office, your car, your computer and your bank accounts. What makes your smartphone any different?

 

My understanding of the system is, if you lose or forget your password, Apple can't help you because the software is designed so passwords are not recoverable. For Apple to be able to retrieve passwords they would have to rewrite the software and require users re-enter their passwords into the new vulnerable version of the software. It's like a futuristic home or car so technologically advanced it is invulnerable to unauthorised access, even by tanks or atomic bombs.

That simply isn't true and isn't what's even being discussed. It is the encryption key the govt wants.

It is a simple process to recover your Apple ID and reset your password even in iOS 9 and above. I've done it. But Apple claims they can't do it without your cooperation. Other experts say that isn't true if they have physical access to the device.

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Govt has always been able to get a warrant to search your home, your office, your car, your computer and your bank accounts. What makes your smartphone any different?

 

My understanding of the system is, if you lose or forget your password, Apple can't help you because the software is designed so passwords are not recoverable. For Apple to be able to retrieve passwords they would have to rewrite the software and require users re-enter their passwords into the new vulnerable version of the software. It's like a futuristic home or car so technologically advanced it is invulnerable to unauthorised access, even by tanks or atomic bombs.

That simply isn't true and isn't what's even being discussed. It is the encryption key the govt wants.

It is a simple process to recover your Apple ID and reset your password even in iOS 9 and above. I've done it.

Actually, at this time the FBI doesn't seem to be asking for the encryption key. As discussed in the Ars Technica article, the FBI is requesting that Apple write new firmware to load on the phone which will remove the limit of 10 password attempts before data is wiped. From there, it seems the FBI would rely on a brute-force attack. Part of the problem appears to be that Apple will have to write new firmware to accomplish this, and as yet, there seems to have been no discussion of payment or what would happen if the data were destroyed during the attempt to update the firmware. Edited by ebrke
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Govt has always been able to get a warrant to search your home, your office, your car, your computer and your bank accounts. What makes your smartphone any different?

 

My understanding of the system is, if you lose or forget your password, Apple can't help you because the software is designed so passwords are not recoverable. For Apple to be able to retrieve passwords they would have to rewrite the software and require users re-enter their passwords into the new vulnerable version of the software. It's like a futuristic home or car so technologically advanced it is invulnerable to unauthorised access, even by tanks or atomic bombs.

That simply isn't true and isn't what's even being discussed. It is the encryption key the govt wants.

It is a simple process to recover your Apple ID and reset your password even in iOS 9 and above. I've done it.

Actually, at this time the FBI doesn't seem to be asking for the encryption key. As discussed in the Ars Technica article, the FBI is requesting that Apple write new firmware to load on the phone which will remove the limit of 10 password attempts before data is wiped. From there, it seems the FBI would rely on a brute-force attack. Part of the problem appears to be that Apple will have to write new firmware to accomplish this, and as yet, there seems to have been no discussion of payment or what would happen if the data were destroyed during the attempt to update the firmware.

IMHO, the first thing that would happen if the data were destroyed would an FBI investigation into whether or not the destruction was deliberate. A very thorough investigation.

 

But as far as I'm concerned, the tech is irrelevant. To me the question is still if what Tim Cook is doing is ethical. I come down on the side of deliberately aiding and abetting terrorist. And if it cost Apple a lot of money to rectify the situation, so much the better.

Edited by lewmur
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Hello,

 

Apple has to comply with all laws in the countries in which it does business. If the US orders it to help backdoor a phone, it will have to comply with similar legal requests from other countries, such as Russia and China.

 

And, of course, once such a technique is possible it will become used in more and more pedestrian cases. For example, Harris Corp. Stingray cell phone site simulators were "originally" intended for nation-state use. Then they became a tool to use against narco-traffickers, then major investigations and today they are now used in misdemeanor cases of probation violation.

 

If Apple is compelled to backdoor its smartphones for one reason, that will establish the precedent for all the other cases which come afterwards, down to civil cases which are acrimonious like divorces.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

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Again... All this discussion of privacy, and trust is irrelevant. The owner of the device has given permission.

 

I can't help but wonder if Apple is using this as a publicity stunt.

The longer this remains in the headlines, the more we talk about it... the more Apple's reputation for good encryption is enhanced.

 

"So good, even the super decrypters in the government can't crack it."

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Hello,

 

Apple has to comply with all laws in the countries in which it does business. If the US orders it to help backdoor a phone, it will have to comply with similar legal requests from other countries, such as Russia and China.

 

And, of course, once such a technique is possible it will become used in more and more pedestrian cases. For example, Harris Corp. Stingray cell phone site simulators were "originally" intended for nation-state use. Then they became a tool to use against narco-traffickers, then major investigations and today they are now used in misdemeanor cases of probation violation.

 

If Apple is compelled to backdoor its smartphones for one reason, that will establish the precedent for all the other cases which come afterwards, down to civil cases which are acrimonious like divorces.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

Strawman. The govt has given permission for Apple to destroy the software after getting the data from the ONE PHONE. And just like in the U.S.A. other govts have ALWAYS been able to tap phones.

 

In addition, to do what the FBI is asking, requires PHYSICAL possession of the phone. Your boogie man is Casper the Friendly Ghost.

Edited by lewmur
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securitybreach

Taping a phone is not the same as accessing the data on the phone. If they simply wanted to tap the phones they would contact the cell service provider, not the manufacturer.

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Taping a phone is not the same as accessing the data on the phone. If they simply wanted to tap the phones they would contact the cell service provider, not the manufacturer.

A difference without meaning. What "data" would be on a "phone" that the FBI wouldn't have already obtained elsewhere?
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Just a thought for those of you who think Tim Cook is protecting "personal privacy" from "big govt". Who is actually benefiting from Apple's encrypting? Answer: ONLY those who are rich enough to afford the "latest and greatest" Apple gadget. NOT John Q. Public. Rich people hiding stuff from the IRS. Banks hiding iffy transactions from the Fed. Big corps hiding iffy stuff from the SEC. And of course, terrorist.

 

edit: Forgot to mention pedophiles sharing lewd pictures of little children. They must really love the new iPhones!!!

Edited by lewmur
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securitybreach

It's not just Apple, Android has let you encrypt your devices for years now. I have encrypted all mine for a long time. You just have to enable it in the developer setting.

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Hello,

 

Everything is a one-time request. At first.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

Hello,

 

Apple has to comply with all laws in the countries in which it does business. If the US orders it to help backdoor a phone, it will have to comply with similar legal requests from other countries, such as Russia and China.

 

And, of course, once such a technique is possible it will become used in more and more pedestrian cases. For example, Harris Corp. Stingray cell phone site simulators were "originally" intended for nation-state use. Then they became a tool to use against narco-traffickers, then major investigations and today they are now used in misdemeanor cases of probation violation.

 

If Apple is compelled to backdoor its smartphones for one reason, that will establish the precedent for all the other cases which come afterwards, down to civil cases which are acrimonious like divorces.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

Strawman. The govt has given permission for Apple to destroy the software after getting the data from the ONE PHONE. And just like in the U.S.A. other govts have ALWAYS been able to tap phones.

 

In addition, to do what the FBI is asking, requires PHYSICAL possession of the phone. Your boogie man is Casper the Friendly Ghost.

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