nlinecomputers Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Last night, midnight, I put dialectric grease on drives' connector pins, turn on power and nothing happens. Only the red light on the motherboard comes on -- i.e., no fan, no HD light. I jiggle connectors, try again a few times, but still nothing. Then I switch the power connector to the primary slave HD, power up and it runs the boot cycle. That is, until it gets to Windows, where it fails and prompts me to try again. Push return and the process completes itself fine. So, out the window for the PS cap explanation. This morning, 6am, it starts the first time (door of problem CDROM drive closed). Retry at 8am, now CD door open, and the usual problem returns (fan & HD light, but no start). Close the CD door, turn the box over, wiggle the same HD connector as switched last night and this time it starts. Slave HD (file storage only) opens as normal. For what it's worth, CMOS Setup screen shows line voltages around what they should be. Deduce from this that connectors on primary slave HD are bad? But why would connectors on HD not in startup path affect anything?Because this is an ELECTRICAL problem not a logical one. The hard drive is SHORTED or has some other electrical problem. Put ANY faulty electrical device on a computer and it will not boot. What the word shorted means is that instead of the electric current going to the componant it is finding a path( a shortcut) to ground. Therefore your computer isn't even getting any power on most of its circuits. It is shorted. Move what you can off that bad drive and discard it, it is a fire hazard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 2, 2003 Author Share Posted May 2, 2003 In BIOS setup, what is HDD-0? It's the HD listed as second in the boot path, after floppy, but there's also a HDD-1, -2, -3 that are not enabled and not in the path, so I'm not sure what the -0 refers to. There's also an LSD-120 device, if I recall correctly; what device does that refer to? Thanks,Gene Goldenfeld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 In BIOS setup, what is HDD-0? It's the HD listed as second in the boot path, after floppy, but there's also a HDD-1, -2, -3 that are not enabled and not in the path, so I'm not sure what the -0 refers to. There's also an LSD-120 device, if I recall correctly; what device does that refer to? Thanks,Gene GoldenfeldHDD-0 is the Primary Master, then they follow in order 1 - Primary Slave, 2 - Secondary Master, 3 - Secondary slave.... You want to make sure that you're booting to HDD-0 if that's where you have your Windows installation. I'm not sure about the LSD-120 device, but I'd be pretty sure you don't need to worry about that one...It's a little weird that they start with zero, but that's common in computer stuff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 2, 2003 Author Share Posted May 2, 2003 <I think I've identified the problem as being on the male pins side of the power connection on my secondary HD. After jiggling wires, the computer went from not starting at all to running fine by just unplugging and replugging that connector. And since I had already tried another PS side connector there without success, I have to assume the problem is on the HD side. >I feel like a fool. The PS connector referred to was to the floppy, not a HD. It appears that since the floppy was the first in the startup path, that's why things were getting stuck. I've changed the order and will see tomorrow morning. That's still a problem, but much less of one with the start-up order changed in the BIOS setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 I feel like a fool. wacko.gif The PS connector referred to was to the floppy, not a HD. It appears that since the floppy was the first in the startup path, that's why things were getting stuck. I've changed the order and will see tomorrow morning. That's still a problem, but much less of one with the start-up order changed in the BIOS setup.The startup order has NOTHING to do with an electrical problem. Perhaps I am missing something or have misunderstood you. Let me see if we can clear my fog. :huh:The symptoms you have:The system will not fully boot up. You get NO text on the screeen, no beeps, and only some but not all motors like fans and hard drives spin up.If you disconnect the hard drive(or is it the floppy) then the system powers up but gives you an error message(no doubt because it can't find the item you just disconnected.)If I understand the problem correctly then the boot up order will have NO effect on this problem. There is NO change you can make in boot order that will cause the system not to power up and give you text on the screen. You might not be able to load Windows or DOS but it WILL display text and beep at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 3, 2003 Author Share Posted May 3, 2003 <The startup order has NOTHING to do with an electrical problem. Perhaps I am missing something or have misunderstood you. Let me see if we can clear my fog. >You are correct, as I found this morning.<The symptoms you have: The system will not fully boot up. You get NO text on the screeen, no beeps, and only some but not all motors like fans and hard drives spin up.>Only board fan and HD red light -- or nothing at all (except red light on board and fan tries to take a spin, like it got a little surge, but stops immediately). <If you disconnect the hard drive(or is it the floppy) then the system powers up but gives you an error message(no doubt because it can't find the item you just disconnected.)>It's the floppy, and no, if I disconnect it, nothing happens, per above. Maybe it's time to just get another power supply and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Maybe it's time to just get another power supply and see what happens.Yep, I agree with that. This is an electrical problem, a short. Something has shorted either the transformer in the powersupply or one of the motors in the various fans or drives is shorted. In a PC you have 5 volt DC devices that power the logical transistor based hardware. The chips, memory, and the CPU and any LEDs. And you have 12 volt DC that powers any motors in the system such as all the fans, the motor that spins the hard drive or the floppy or the CD. Motors use coils of wire to create magnetic fields so that they can spin their drive shafts. Over time these coils degrade as heat causes them to change shape. Wires in coils that shouldn't touch end up doing so and thus they short out. Power supply transformers also use coils and they too can short out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus K Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Although not completely relevant to this post, I've found that many new AMD mobo's want more than the 20A on the +3.3 rail that was typically supplied with older PS's (including Antec's 300w series). Look for at least 28A on this rail.And another quirk I've noticed is that Lite-On burners tend to keep accessing/spinning the HD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeber Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 The only thought I'd like to add to this thread is that sometimes a problem doesn't have just one cause. Two seperate situations (incorrect BIOS settings and electrical short) can work in concert to create a situation that defies solution because we seek one cause. Perhaps that is happening here. The two conditions have created one major problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 4, 2003 Author Share Posted May 4, 2003 A little test this morning when it wouldn't boot after a couple of power ons (fan, HD red light only). I left the machine on in this state for 2-3 minutes, turned it off for maybe 30-45 seconds, then restarted and it booted as normal. Note: No jiggling of any connectors; didn't even give them the evil eye. So, what does this tell you?(It's quite possible that more than one thing is at issue here, but I'm not sure why good BIOS settings would all of a sudden turn bad.) Thanks,Gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 A little test this morning when it wouldn't boot after a couple of power ons (fan, HD red light only). I left the machine on in this state for 2-3 minutes, turned it off for maybe 30-45 seconds, then restarted and it booted as normal. Note: No jiggling of any connectors; didn't even give them the evil eye. So, what does this tell you?(It's quite possible that more than one thing is at issue here, but I'm not sure why good BIOS settings would all of a sudden turn bad.) Thanks,GeneHonestly not a dang thing. Any componant could cause an intermitant problem. Without a voltmeter and a STRONG understanding of electronics you are not going to be able to solve this without replacing parts with known good ones.As to BIOS problems...static can clear a CMOS chip. If your fiddling around inside a computer long enough you can clear you BIOS settings by accident by static discharge. Allways ground yourself by touching the powersupply's chassis or by using a grounding strap. Also can you clear up what your problem with the BIOS is? You said that the startup order was not correct but a boot order of FLOPPY then HDD-0 is normal and correct. I don't see what is wrong there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 4, 2003 Author Share Posted May 4, 2003 /QUOTE]Honestly not a dang thing. Any componant could cause an intermitant problem. Without a voltmeter and a STRONG understanding of electronics you are not going to be able to solve this without replacing parts with known good ones.I know something about electricity but not electronics well enough to solved this. This will have to be a shop job. I've looked at the BIOS setup and can't find anything obviously wrong to my relatively untrained eye. You are correct: boot order doesn't matter here. BTW, I replicated the "fix," this time by several power on and offs until it started properly. That was the basis of my earlier "cap theory," but that explanation is erroneous. Something needs some time to get going, but the PS is not it. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 That is so true! You just never know about these intermittent problems.We had a 486 DX2 66mhz computer that was very reliable and worked well in Windows, very well in fact. But it hated to be turned off! It could take you half an hour to get it to boot up after it had been shutdown. But it would reboot just fine, every time!It was a Western Digital drive. The drive had originally been on a 'vesa local bus' video/IO/IDE video card with a special Western Digital software to support that formatting. When the video portion of the card eventually failed we changed to a normal IDE controller for the drive. From then on it had a weird spinning up issue but only from a cold boot.So we just never turned it off except for Thunderstorms. We did the shutdown in Windows got to the "it's ok to shutdown now" screen and turned off the monitor till we needed the computer again.The drive still works great but it has since been moved to a P233 motherboard now, and we've never had to reinstall Windows 95 on it either, so we just deal with it's personality problem when we want to use the Windows side of this dualboot Mandrake 8.1/Win95 computer.These little 'personality' problems can be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 BTW, I replicated the "fix," this time by several power on and offs until it started properly. That was the basis of my earlier "cap theory," but that explanation is erroneous. Something needs some time to get going, but the PS is not it. No your cap theory is still in play. A cap can be shorted. A cap can control transitors that can regulate power thus causing things to not power up, so if a cap leaks the gate on a transistor can fail to open and power is cut. This also can be shorted windings in a motor or in a transformer that expands and pull apart with heat and unshorts thus powering up. Problem is said CAP can be and is on any and every part in the system. I still think your power supply is the lead suspect and your motherboard a close second but without a stack of parts to trade out and test with it is difficult to know from the symptoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 One quick thought relating to capacitors... Take a loot at your motherboard and there should be at least one row of capacitors. Look at the top of each of the caps and see if any of them are bubbled/ burnt, or anything out of the ordinary. If so, it could be your power supply and/or your mb... if you've got burnt caps, you're going to need a new mb anyway, so that's where I'd start... If not, it still could be the mb, but isn't an obvious issue...Just one more thing to look for... not that you don't have enough anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest genaldar Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I've just replaced two power supplies this week and all problems were solved. They just don't make the PS as good as they used to, they just don't last for years anymore. Same goes for CDs and hard drives.JoyI agree completely. My generic one is four years old and running fine (I'm getting a new one because I found a dual fan 500w cheap). A buddy of mine had a cheap one go out after a year and kill his hard drive. A different friend's died after 18 months and took his motherboard, it was an antec. In both cases there was no warning, they just blew (literally). My friend who lost the cheapie was living with me at the time and one day he turned it on, 2 seconds later we smelled smoke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 5, 2003 Author Share Posted May 5, 2003 One quick thought relating to capacitors... Take a loot at your motherboard and there should be at least one row of capacitors. Look at the top of each of the caps and see if any of them are bubbled/ burnt, or anything out of the ordinary. If so, it could be your power supply and/or your mb... if you've got burnt caps, you're going to need a new mb anyway, so that's where I'd start... If not, it still could be the mb, but isn't an obvious issue...Just one more thing to look for... not that you don't have enough anyway I swapped power supplies with an Antec and that didn't solve the problem. Just turning the computer on and off and on a few times, with 15-30 seconds between, gets it going. Guess that leaves something on the motherboard. This one (AZZA) has only been in 1.5 years (unnecessary replacement by an incompetent/fraudulent repair shop). Don't see any burnt caps or anything else out of the ordinary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 I swapped power supplies with an Antec and that didn't solve the problem. Just turning the computer on and off and on a few times, with 15-30 seconds between, gets it going. Guess that leaves something on the motherboard. This one (AZZA) has only been in 1.5 years (unnecessary replacement by an incompetent/fraudulent repair shop). Don't see any burnt caps or anything else out of the ordinary.Well that blows the PS theory! I've seen some articles like the one here, that have been reporting that a number faulty capacitors have ended up in motherboards, powersupplies, and other electronic equipment. It has some good photos on what to look for on these faulty caps. A google search might be of use too.Google LINKWorth looking at if you work on lots of computer equipment like I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 5, 2003 Author Share Posted May 5, 2003 Well that blows the PS theory! I've seen some articles like the one here, that have been reporting that a number faulty capacitors have ended up in motherboards, powersupplies, and other electronic equipment. It has some good photos on what to look for on these faulty caps. A google search might be of use too.Google LINKWorth looking at if you work on lots of computer equipment like I do. Well, that lends a new light on it. Thanks! 25 years ago I was a steel mill electrician and it's nice to hear that my learned instincts weren't completely lost in subsequent lives. However, short of pulling the mb, I took a close look at all the coils and caps and didn't see anything odd. Since I'm not set up to do any testing myself, the choice comes down to paying a shop look at it or just putting in another mb (800 mhz athlon t-bird). The price of decent boards for relatively older systems has come down enormously ($75-125). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 5, 2003 Share Posted May 5, 2003 Hey allways a good time to upgrade! :)However there is no guarentee that the mobo is the problem. It still could be another part. I would still disconect parts one at a time to see if you can boot up. Strip it down to so that the only parts are the keyboard and video, no modem, no mouse, no nic card, no floppy, etc. You might be suprised at what isn't working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzButt Posted May 6, 2003 Share Posted May 6, 2003 My older (now my parents PC) Iwill BD100+ does this and it seems to be a video card issue.Reseating the cards helps for a while until someone messes with the PC again. As long as it is not disturbed it is ok. I would try this.Since you have XP now it is a bit more tolerant of you removing cards than 98 was or at least that is the case for me.I would write down everything in your PC on a sheet of paper. Where it is in the PC, How it plugs in and what PCI slot is is located in. Now take out everything that is not really necessary. That CD would be first, sound card and your nic would be second. If you have a good Video card (GeForce 3 or better) then remove it and then put it back in making sure it is in the slot correctly and all the way. Screw it down. If you ahve an older video card maybe now is a good time to upgrade (Not always the best thing when trying to fix a strange issue but this is one thing that cannot be swapped out).If you can I would also run just your boot drive. Unplug the power connector at your disabled cd and hard drives. Also unplug your fans especially if they are plugged into the system board ports (except the Proc fan).You mentioned you have a new Power supply is it a quality unit? Antec, Enermax or PC Power & Cooling are the only ones I would trust when it comes to stability issues. Clean the dust out if the case while it is open. Leave the cover off. You should have just the main hard drive plugged in and your video card and your floppy drive. Put a floppy in the drive so Windows does not boot and then try to turn it on. If it is still not responding then you know the issue is left to one of the 6 remaining parts. Since you say this only happens over night it might take a few nights for you to narrow down the offending part. I would look at parts that make heat (get warm/hot) during operation. Good luckChris**my PC P&C 435W is running 6 hard drives (640GB), CDRW, DVD, 4 PCI Cards, GeForce 3 Ti200, Asus A7V333 and Athlon XP2000+ along with 7 case fans ** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 6, 2003 Author Share Posted May 6, 2003 Clean the dust out if the case while it is open. Leave the cover off. You should have just the main hard drive plugged in and your video card and your floppy drive. Put a floppy in the drive so Windows does not boot and then try to turn it on. If it is still not responding then you know the issue is left to one of the 6 remaining parts. Since you say this only happens over night it might take a few nights for you to narrow down the offending part. I would look at parts that make heat (get warm/hot) during operation.Thanks for the suggestion. Sounds like a good idea for the first night, but after that I need the broadband, etc., so will have to work the other way, disconnecting one at a time, per another suggestion. So far I know it's not the bad CD drive. Fortunately, I have only one fan (CPU). Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 7, 2003 Author Share Posted May 7, 2003 The only thing I've noticed as components are unplugged one a day is that with the first one disconnected (the problem CD drive), the HD red light changed from being off/on to having a light glow when not running. Today, with the second HD disconnected (plus the CD), the bright red "on" isn't so bright (strong) anymore. Any significance to these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b2cm Posted May 9, 2003 Share Posted May 9, 2003 My suggestion is for you to disconnect the defective CD and the other disk. Then, if your CPU fan is sourcing power from the motherboard, you should connect it directly to one of the PS cables/connectors. The idea is give the motherboard enough power to start-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 12, 2003 Author Share Posted May 12, 2003 My suggestion is for you to disconnect the defective CD and the other disk. Then, if your CPU fan is sourcing power from the motherboard, you should connect it directly to one of the PS cables/connectors. The idea is give the motherboard enough power to start-up.So far I've tried disconnecting everything except the main HD and the video card (pulled and reseated), without any change in startup behavior. The CPU fan (only one on board) uses a connector that's smaller than anything coming from the PS. I'm finding that startup takes up to about 15 powerups, but seems to happen more quickly when I leave the computer on for several minutes on one of the first tries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b2cm Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 I suggested disconnecting the CD-ROM and the disk so you also can avoid other problems. As someone had pointed out, the malfunctioning devices are fire hazards. I say they will sooner or later break down---along with your data. As for the CPU fan, it might be disrupting and/or slowing down the proper distribution of power in the mainboard. This is why, as you have noticed yourself, the computer starts up more quickly when you leave it on for several minutes on one of the startup tries. As I understand it the motherboard is getting power from the PS (no problem with the PS, therefore). This is indicated by the LEDS that light up and the fan that spins when you power up, as these are powered through the mainboard. But the computer does not initialize, indicated by no POST and the flashing LED on your monitor (it means that the monitor is receiving power from its power cable, but no signal in its signal cable). This could be caused by many other things (busted processor, bad memory modules or badly seated ones, video cards, etc.), but the fact that the computer do initialize sooner or later suggests that the problem has to do with power supply and/or distribution on the mainboard.You can cut off that fan power cable connector, and connect the (2) wires to one of the PS power cables. Usually a PS power cable has 4 wires (yellow, black, black, red). Connect one of the fan power cable wire to the yellow (12-volt), and the other one to any of the blacks (ground). As an electrician, how to do that shouldn't be much of a problem to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 14, 2003 Author Share Posted May 14, 2003 This morning I disconnected the main HD and the machine started right up. Reconnected, same old problem. Repeat. Obviously, the HD. But what might be the problem with the HD that keeps the computer from booting at all for anywhere from 2-15 tries? However, just when it was looking simple... I disconnect the HD, reconnect the problem CD drive, change the boot order and put XP CD inside. Play with that for a few minutes, before deciding not to install XP on the other HD for now. Then shut down, reconnect the main HD and...it starts right up. Well, if the HD is the problem, why would it start up after being disconnected -- luck or something else? That's a question I want to check out a little more before running out and buying a new HD.In the meantime, I have a related question about setting up the boot order. How do I get the BIOS setup program to change primary and secondary masters and slaves? I don't see any choices in that regard under regular or advanced settings. I've been disconnecting power cables, but not data cables. Is the latter required? For example, altho I had my problem CD drive power cable disconnected (but not the data cable), setup wouldn't give up that drive as secondary master, so the good CD drive (secondary slave) could be used for startup. Thanks,Gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 In the meantime, I have a related question about setting up the boot order. How do I get the BIOS setup program to change primary and secondary masters and slaves? I don't see any choices in that regard under regular or advanced settings. I've been disconnecting power cables, but not data cables. Is the latter required? For example, altho I had my problem CD drive power cable disconnected (but not the data cable), setup wouldn't give up that drive as secondary master, so the good CD drive (secondary slave) could be used for startup. Thanks,GenePrimary/Secondary is set by which slot you connect the IDE cord to on the motherboard... One should be a different color or labeled Primary/IDE0 or something to that effect... The other IDE slot is your Secondary...Master/Slave are set by Jumpers on the back of each drive... It should tell you somewhere on the drive where to set the little jumper to get master or slave... There's probably also a set for solo drive... (use this if you only have one device connected to the individual IDE cable). Hope this makes sense... P.S. Each cable has two connections, one for master and one for slave... make sure you only have one master and one slave connected to each cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b2cm Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 Gene,Your motherboard has two IDE channel interface (IDE1 or Primary and IDE2 or Secondary), each able to support 2 IDE devices (Master and Slave). To change the status of your IDE devices as Primary to Secondary, vice versa, just transfer the cable ribbon connectors to the other IDE channel interface. Then go to BIOS setup, have the IDE devices detected (or just set these to AUTO detection) and restart. Also check the status of your IDE devices. On an IDE channel, there should only be one IDE device set as Master. An IDE device will have JUMPERS or SWITCHES that are used to set the IDE device as Master or Slave. It is set manually. At the least, there should be three settings: Master or MA, Slave or SL,and Cable Select or CS. Each setting will have a pair/s of pins that must be shorted to be set. A CS setting will set the IDE device connected to the connector in the middle of the ribbon cable as SLAVE, and the IDE device connected to one of the ends of the ribbon cable as MASTER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genegold Posted May 17, 2003 Author Share Posted May 17, 2003 I'm grateful for the help I've received here, but before I run and out buy a hard drive, I'm puzzled by something and would like to understand it better. That is, why the 1)computer won't start normally with HD0 connected; that is, go thru BIOS, memory, etc., w/o many tries 2)will do those things with HDO disconnected first try 3)will do those things with HDO reconnected after the first tryAny ideas? Thanks,Gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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