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Peachy

Trustworthy Computing

Is the Trusted Computing Platform Alliance the end of the PC as we know it?  

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Some background:[url="http://www.linux-mag.com/2003-01/palladium_01.html"]Microsoft's Power Play[/url][url="http://www.trustedcomputing.org/tcpaasp4/index.asp"]TCPA Website[/url][url="http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2002/jul02/0724palladiumwp.asp"]From the belly of the Beast[/url][url="http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html"]Trusted Computing FAQ[/url][url="http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/07/11/palladium/"]Can we trust Microsoft's Palladium?[/url]

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Thanks for the articles Peachy... this is very scary... As if these companies aren't doing enough to try to take over the world, they now are gathering together to try to do it... Eeek! B) B) B)

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What is AMD's stance on this?Fred Langa mentioned some items related to this a while back. He thinks it's a bit alarmist, but I don't yet know what to think. Makes me want to buy another box and install Linux on it... B)

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Wow Peachy, you have touched on a subject that has me perplexed. If you look at MS's past and how they have abused their power it is indeed a frightening thought. If it is done right, with the betterment of all in mind (yeah right) it could mean a lot more advantages and choices for consumers where digital media is concerned. But I do not see MS doing this for the benefit of anyone other than MS. So yeah, right now it has me concerned. And XP will probably be my last OS that comes from Redmond.

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I wish XP would be my last MS OS but when your into the computer repair business you have to keep up with MS. Doesn't mean it has to be my main OS or anything. :rolleyes:

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So then, we all go Linux. M$ & Co have new, secure hardware and software, so all the bad boys start going after Linux. We go through a long period of learning about the weaknesses of the distros, using firewalls and AVPs to try to keep the beast at bay, and then someone says, "Let's get together and try to solve this thing." They create the "TLC" (Trustworthy Linux Computing) Group, and immediately decide that only those who are participating (read "invited") will get the goodies.People are in an uproar. It looks to everyone like a few big Linux players are going to try to control the game. "Whatever happened to open source?", they ask...Shuckydarn!

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[quote name='havnblast' date='Apr 26 2003, 09:59 PM']I wish XP would be my last MS OS but when your into the computer repair business you have to keep up with MS.  Doesn't mean it has to be my main OS or anything. ;)[/quote]I heard that! I'm in the same boat. Gotta have all of Billy's new toys to do my work.I'm tempted to go Linux full time but frankly for desktop use Linux often doesn't quite make it. For one thing the fonts are UGLY. I've tried all the how to's on ugly fonts and it helps some but put a Linux box down next to a Win XP box, a Mac, or even Windows 98 and the Linux box will be the ugliest of the bunch. It hurts the eyes after a few hours. And it isn't consistant. A fix for KDE doesn't work for Mozilla and OpenOffice is just icky to look at. It shouldn't be this D*** a pain in the butt to make this look consistant. ;) Well there is allways Mac, not that I trust them either with DRM issues.Nathan WilliamsN-Line Computers

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Guest ComputerBob
I would prefer to not be "forced" to trust MS or any other company. That's why I still run Win98SE on my older PC, and why I am looking for the right Linux distro to hopefully become my main OS on my newer PC. I know I could install Win98SE on my newer PC (Athlon XP 2100) and it would run like the wind compared to how it runs on my old PII-266, but my goal is to have my newer PC be totally non-MS.Time will tell if that's possible or not. B)

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Guest ComputerBob
[quote name='greengeek' date='Apr 27 2003, 10:05 PM']B) Of course it's possible, you just have to work at it, no such word as "can't"![/quote]I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. I suppose it's theoretically possible that, at my age, I could spend the time and effort required to lose 100 pounds, build up my strength, and become a world-class gymnast, but the odds are so overwhelming against that possibility, that the reality of the situation is that becoming a world-class gymnast is something that I can't do, along with becoming a black female model. (not that I ever wanted to be a black female model). B) There are apps that I run in Win98SE for which Linux does not have any equivalent app yet. And the cost/benefit does not pay off for me to spend many, many hours learning how to install/configure/tweak/troubleshoot the existing Linux apps that give me problems "right out of the box." For example, Mandrake 9.0 was able to burn CDs at 24x on my 48x burner, and TuxRacer ran at full speed, but MDK 9.0 couldn't see my USB scanner or USB wheel mouse; while Mandrake 9.1 saw my scanner immediately, but it wouldn't burn CDs at more than 6x, and TuxRacer stuttered along one frame at a time. To a Linux expert, those problems may have relatively simple solutions, but to a Linux newbie, they're problems that shouldn't exist in the first place. I don't have hours and hours to waste trying to figure out or find the solution to all the Linux problems that greet me with each new Linux distro that I try. I really envy people who say that they installed xxxx Linux and it found all of their hardware and everything works without any problems. Despite the fact that I made sure that all of my hardware was Linux supported before I built my new PC, I've never tried any Linux distro that found, configured, and used all of it correctly. :D I will be ready for Linux when Linux is ready for me. B)

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[quote name='ComputerBob' date='Apr 27 2003, 10:41 PM']There are apps that I run in Win98SE for which Linux does not have any equivalent app yet. And the cost/benefit does not pay off for me to spend many, many hours learning how to install/configure/tweak/troubleshoot the existing Linux apps that give me problems "right out of the box." For example, Mandrake 9.0 was able to burn CDs at 24x on my 48x burner, and TuxRacer ran at full speed, but MDK 9.0 couldn't see my USB scanner or USB wheel mouse; while Mandrake 9.1 saw my scanner immediately, but it wouldn't burn CDs at more than 6x, and TuxRacer stuttered along one frame at a time. To a Linux expert, those problems may have relatively simple solutions, but to a Linux newbie, they're problems that shouldn't exist in the first place. I don't have hours and hours to waste trying to figure out or find the solution to all the Linux problems that greet me with each new Linux distro that I try. I really envy people who say that they installed xxxx Linux and it found all of their hardware and everything works without any problems. Despite the fact that I made sure that all of my hardware was Linux supported before I built my new PC, I've never tried any Linux distro that found, configured, and used all of it correctly. B) I will be ready for Linux when Linux is ready for me. B)[/quote]You hit the nail on the head, CB. Linux is just not ready to be a primary desktop OS for the vast majority of users. I wish very much that it was, but that is not the reality of it yet. Yet all of the blame does not fall on Linux. As I stated elsewhere, until hardware and software manufacturers get on board and start developing for linux it will never get to where it needs to be, to be a TRUE alternative to Windows. At least not for the majority of computer users.

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hmmmm that reminds me - I wonder if my scanner works in RH 9.0, never tried using linux with my scanner, I know my usb camera/webcam by creative doesn't appear too. No biggie, will always have windows around someplace.

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Seriously, it is very nice to hear folks who are way out ahead of me in computer know-how saying what I have been thinking. I am pretty productive here, and how do I measure the loss of productivity vs whatever advantages I would get from changing OS's. Even Apple falls short of meeting my needs...Linux? Love to, but I don't have the time or energy.

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Right now, I prefer setting up Linux as a server rather than using it extensively as a desktop OS. The current state of Linux as a server falls somewhere between Windows NT 4 and Windows 2000 Server, meaning it is more of an equivalent to Windows NT in terms of features but is closer to Windows 2000 in terms of configurability/useability. What's missing from Linux to be a great server is a good Directory Service akin to Novell's NDS or Microsoft's Active Directory. Once someone creates a directory service native to Linux, watch out! Using Open LDAP on Linux is a good starting point for creating a directory service, but it needs work.

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directory service - hmmm...i really think that even the networking greats dont know what that is...it's such a bear that they developed ldap, for [color="gray"][b]lightweight[/b][/color] directory something-or-another.and guess what? methinks no one comes close to implementing even that. :lol: i guess i missed the point of ds, and i've tried to read up on it. :) the huge team that coded ms's 2000 ds was bought from novell's team.beings as it was a long and costly process, methinks linux won't get any for a long time to come. :)

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DS is the holy grail of networking in large corporate IT departments. It's the only way you can manage 100s to 1000s of users, servers, printers, and security. You need a central directory to manage all that. Linux can't do that except for using NIS, but NIS is akin to using a NT 4 Domain Controller. It works but is not very scalable for large organizations.

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Guest ThunderRiver
I beta test a number of programs for Microsoft, but I am strongly against "Next Generation Trustworthy Computing" codenamed Palladium.The main purpose of "Trustworthy Computing" is not really to protect cusumer data according to some internal documents within Microsoft. It is a big step towards the eradication of piracy for which you can't run pirated software without the "license permission" from the software provider. They would know exactly how many licenses you use for your organization.Second of all, yes, "Trustworth Computing" does benefit users with encrypted data; thus only designated person will be able to decrypt and view the data. Now, for one thing it is still mainly software based => Windows platform only. So now here is the question, how do you communicate with people that uses Mac? or Linux? or Solaris? or BSD or BeOS? or any other non-Windows OS? This feature will be implemented in Windows Longhorn, and that's probably the only feature I am against.Microsoft Office 11 does come with a form of "Trustworthy Computing" named Digital Information Management, which relies entirely on .NET service. It is also Windows based, and you can't do anything with it on non-Windows OS.My two cents. I can't just trust it.

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I find it amusing that people are debating whether a Palladium software/ hardware platform might be considered 'trustworthy'. You have to ask? Anyone who has followed the politics of desktop technology these past ~10 years should see that it is not (unless, perhaps, one is an impressionable newbie or in major denial). This will make forced activation look trivial by comparison. It's a disaster in the making. If this became the only viable platform left, I'd give up on home computing and take up stamp collecting before I would buy into this 'corporate exploit' against customers who adopt it. I think Steve Gibson said it best (in a slightly different context) when he adopted the phrase "It's _my_ computer!" as a personal trademark. If I can no longer have dominion- and control- over the hardware on my desk, I'd just as soon retool it using a 10 pound sledgehammer. This could at least provide some comic relief as a work of performance art or modern sculpture.It's definitely true that many of us have invested lots of time and effort learning to make our Windows computers very capable and versatile tools. This results from a lot of trial and error, tweaks, and a lot of 'mix and match' software from diverse sources. These boxes would be sorely missed if it became necessary to set them aside. I for one am willing to go through another 'learning curve' if that's what it comes to, however. There is a point beyond which I am not willing to be pushed, and we are fast approaching it. It's easy to predict that this degree of trampling on and disrespecting customers is going to push some segment of present Windows users into migrating to Linux, unfinished though it may be. I would be one of them. Reach a 'critical mass' of users, and Linux might really take off and evolve into the relatively polished and complete package Windows users have gotten used to- but without the attitude.

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Here's an article that talks about the first demonstrations of "Next Generation Secure Computing Base" (formerly codename Palladium). Interesting use of the hardware I must say... still debating on whether this is a good thing or not. :) ;) :D [url="http://apnews.myway.com//article/20030506/D7QS2FG02.html"]http://apnews.myway.com//article/20030506/.../D7QS2FG02.html[/url]

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oh good grief.trusted computing?obviously not i trust it, but microsoft can now sorta trust me.i don't want to be trusted by ms.and their os code base is entirely too large for me to trust them.goodness only knows what is in any of the current code we run.so many things phone home with info about me and my software, and data, etc.now they're delveloping an os specifically to do that? gripe!as to encryption - whadda joke. none of us has legal access to anything even remotely secure. the f ed s won't allow it. they need to know NOW. not in a day or two.witness how fast the l o ve virus authors were caught - the original word document (as all do) had their unique id embedded in it.they were in jail on the 3rd day - it took the afternoon to find them, a day for the international paperwork and the flight overseas, and the 3rd day was the arrest.it may not be orwell, but it's getting there. :lol:

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I have not made up my mind about all this yet. However, this is a VERY important topic. There may be no more important topic to the future of Windows Computing than how Palladium will eventually be implemented in Windows and PCs in 2005 and 2006. There are so many ramifications.One thing I know about watching Microsoft, as I have done for 20 years professionally, it is too early to draw conclusions about all of this. They often run things up the flagpole like this just to test the waters of enterprise, OEM, and consumer reaction.But, and I think this is the point that bears the most attention, Microsoft is ALWAYS playing chess. It is always seeking to take one step that has three or four advantageous outcomes. The Numero Uno advantageous outcome that Microsoft is seeking with all this is to:[size=7]Sell New PC Hardware[/size].Other important advantages would be to create an even more proprietary aspect to Windows that makes it harder for competitors to imitate, add a plank (or two) in its "security" stance, and open up new markets for the PC in being able to distribute goods and services (such as movies and music) while pleasing the huge corporations in those markets.If you examine the attributes of Palladium and the features of Longhorn from that point of view, a lot of other things start to become clear.Microsoft will have to focus on user experience. And it is adept at this -- better than any company I know except Apple -- when it puts its mind to it. So, in that way, I agree with Fred Langa. Some of the fears we're all having *may* be unfounded.However, user experience, user rights, user privacy are all issues that Microsoft used to hold above all others. At one time, this was *the* way for Microsoft to make money. No longer. And the older that Gates, Ballmer, and Microsoft get, the more greedy they have become, and the less concerned about end users they've become. Microsoft is a public company that has to show progress every three months. That is the overwhelming priority. While Microsoft still thinks long-term (much longer term than most companies), its goals don't serve users as they once did.Because of that, there are enough things going on in Palladium and Longhorn that I am quite concerned that, in addition to forcing us all to buy new hardware, the end result may be very far away from what advanced users like us really want from an operating system.It's at least possible that Windows XP will be the last great power-users' OS from Microsoft. From here on out, Microsoft could be asking us to drive the 21st century version of the dumb terminal. Not because the machine will be dumb, but because the OS is increasingly being driven by corporate-oriented needs that conflict with end-user freedoms and goals.What's our alternative? I'm here to tell you that it isn't any of these OSes:1. Mac OS X (although this comes the closest)2. Windows 98/Me3. Linux as we know it today.For my money, Windows 2000 and Windows XP are the sweet spot. Neither is perfect, but either one will do. At least until some company invests the R&D effort, people power, and $$$ to make Linux a serious desktop contender.-- Scot

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[quote name='Scot' date='May 10 2003, 08:37 AM'](snip)However, user experience, user rights, user privacy are all issues that Microsoft used to hold above all others. At one time, this was *the* way for Microsoft to make money. No longer. And the older that Gates, Ballmer, and Microsoft get, the more greedy they have become, and the less concerned about end users they've become. Microsoft is a public company that has to show progress every three months. That is the overwhelming priority. While Microsoft still thinks long-term (much longer term than most companies), its goals don't serve users as they once did.Because of that, there are enough things going on in Palladium and Longhorn that I am quite concerned that, in addition to forcing us all to buy new hardware, the end result may be very far away from what advanced users like us really want from an operating system.It's at least possible that Windows XP will be the last great power-users' OS from Microsoft. From here on out, Microsoft could be asking us to drive the 21st century version of the dumb terminal. Not because the machine will be dumb, but because the OS is increasingly being driven by corporate-oriented needs that conflict with end-user freedoms and goals.(snip)[/quote]I would be interested to see how that scenario plays out, so far as forcing skilled veterans to invest in new hardware for an OS experience they emphatically do not want! Granted, many will be swept along in the strong current of 'progress' and blithely accept most anything that is pushed their way, especially if the 'whiz bang' quotient continues to increase with succeeding releases. Those folks can be easily conned and mesmerized to "...relaxen und watchen das blinkin-lights!" Those of us who learned to harness and constantly upgrade our computers will never be content to operate "21st century dumb terminals", which seems to be a pretty accurate description of the ugly future for Windows. Power users would not settle for giving up the wheel and just being passengers while the driver decides where and when we go and how massive the fare increase is going to be. I do think there will be significant rebellion. As long as that resistance is big enough it can support an alternative market in hardware, software, and ideas. It's a relief to hear Linux user opinions that it would not be possible for Microsoft to simply buy up Linux and take it off the market. Let's hope that today's incestuous monopolies can't combine forces to dominate hardware platform development to the extent that they can squeeze out competing OS's that way. For all of Bill Gates' boyish charm and lovable geek-hero image that he's built up over the years, some of it well deserved, his heart nonetheless seems to resemble Darth Vader's more and more each passing year.

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[quote name='Scot' date='May 10 2003, 08:37 AM'].For my money, Windows 2000 and Windows XP are the sweet spot. Neither is perfect, but either one will do. At least until someone invest the R&D, people power, and $$$ to make Linux a serious desktop contender.-- Scot[/quote]Why I never even considered XP is the same reason I would not consider a Palladium, as we understand it now; I am told that experienced computerists put [u]effort[/u] into not being too connected to M$ with XP. I did not, and do not, want to play that game.Linux is the most obvious path of escape, but, as Scott pointed out, not as we know [u]it[/u] today. People are not going to be looking for a "Distro"; they are going to be looking for an OS. They are also going to be expecting software to run on it. It will not be economically feasible for the software folks to chase the open source community around.What will, I believe, occur if Palladium rolls out as advertised is a proprietary Linux OS. Whoever takes this on will need some financial muscle, and connections in the software industry. The particular kernel they are employing will be out to the software folks ahead of time so that they can do "shelf roll-outs" as the OS becomes available. (Yes, just like a M$ roll-out today).I see this as the future because many of us have no interest in chasing our own OS around; we want stability, [u]support[/u], somebody to yell atif the darn thing doesn't work, etc., etc. Only a proprietary OS will have the economics to support all of this, and I believe that the economics will be good, because many "users" will find abandoning M$ less scary, and will do just that.I think that our wait for this proprietary OS will be longer than our wait for Palladium. M$ is still supple when it wants to be, and could react quickly if it saw this threat as imminent. I don't believe that any large organization will commit themselves until M$ has. The caveat to this is someone deciding to roll out a proprietary Linux OS irrespective of M$'s actions. If they could get the freeware and shareware folks fired up about it (and I think they could), they would be able to tout a real alternative to** even if they had some lag on the commercial software side. We might even see some old stuff become new again (I used Wordperfect for a long time, and I would use it again).When that Linux OS comes along, I am sure I would wait a few months, allowing the computerists to "shake it out" and the software folks to get some speed up, but I know that [b]I[/b] would go. I think I am a pretty good model for "Joe Computer", so I do think there is a market now.In the mean time, I am in love with W2K, and wouldn't trade it for any OS out there. I feel like I have all the time in the world to let this OS thing take it's course.You know, I would really love to be "a mouse in the corner" at some of these software folks' R&D meetings. The question is not "if, if, if", but "when, when, when".

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