Men as Beasts of Burden

[ibe98765]

Very interesting article...

Men as Beasts of Burden Marty Nemko  There are five widows for every widower. Kevin, 37, is a computer programmer, making $80,000 a year, $48,000 after taxes. His wife, Julie, stays home to take care of their two-year old. She is pregnant with another child, and eager for them to buy a home. Kevin doesn’t like being a programmer, but fears that a career change will mean a salary cut.  I asked Kevin, “Is owning a home important to you?†He sighed, “It’s very important to Julie.†I asked him how he felt about having the second child. He responded half-heartedly, “Okay. Julie really wants it.† I asked, “When you first called me, you said you feel the stress is killing you. Should you be shouldering all the family’s financial responsibilities?†He pursed his lips: “Julie reminds me that before we got married, I agreed to have two children. She says, and I guess I agree, that to bring our kids up right and maintain a home is a full-time job. And she doesn’t have my earning capacity.†Kevin rubbed his head. Over the past 17 years, I have been career coach to 1,500 middle and upper class women and to 500 middle-to-upper class men. Because of our relationships’ confidentiality, I have learned much about what women really think on a number of issues. Most surprising to me, is that most of the women, including many graduates of elite colleges, either don’t want an income-earning job or will only work part-time in an unusually pleasant job. A recent New York Times article suggests my clients are not an anomaly. It reported that the number of stay-at-home moms has increased 13 percent in less than a decade, and among working women, two-thirds work part-time! This is true even of graduates of prestigious colleges, women who were bestowed a fiercely competed-for slot at an elite college on the assumption they would use that career door-opening degree to make a big difference in the world. Full story

[ross549]

I agree with some of what the article is saying, but there are other factors to consider:

• The Economy- right now it is difficult to get a good job, especially if you have only basic technical skills. This is one of the reasons why men must take other, "more dangerous," or difficult jobs.
• Spending- The husband and wife in a family situation need to help each other control each other's spending. Some friends of mine did this with great results- they agreed (when they got married) to never spend more than $25 without talking about it first. Many of the spending problems today result from impulse purchases.
• Babysitting/Daycare- I think overall that this is a bad idea. Daycare/babysitters cost a lot of money nowdays, and do you trust them to help raise your kids in accordance with your personal beliefs etc.? I heard a statistic that dual income families are not making any more money than a single income, because of daycare costs, extra food costs (not enough time to prepare supper), etc. In some cases, it is worse.

Please keep in mind that I do not mean that woemen should not work a job. I do think however, that a husband and wife should discuss such things before getting married, so they know what each other's expectations are in the relationship. Many times, couples don't discuss and plan for the future and are in a perpetual state of "fixing" it. I'll get off my soapbox for now, but I may be back.....

[havnblast]

I heard a statistic that dual income families are not making any more money than a single income, because of daycare costs

Daycare is very expensive, unless both parents are making a great deal of money they may want to take a look at one staying home for a bit. Single parents are in a very tough spot also with the situation. Some are college students and working part-time and the part-time doesn't pay the bills anyway, but what do you do? You see this situation all over the place. The divorce rate makes the single parents rate very high and what happens a lot of the time than is that someone tries to skip out on the childsupport creating a worsen situation. Why someone would want to do that their children is beyond me.No matter what the children don't need to suffer - they are innocent

[ross549]

I agree, the kids should not suffer.What breaks my heart is how many marraiges fail. Many times somone gets infatuated (best word for it) with someone else, calls it love and gets married shortly thereafter. In many cases, both people really don't know the other person other than the minimum exposure that they get through dates etc. I am currently on the "other" side of a relationship. We both agreed that it was not moving forward, and decided to release each other from our emtional commitment. The strange part was that we each had a different emotional stake in the relationship- me, the friendship, and her, her heart. She fell in love with me just from our IM chats, phone calls, and e-mails. The "me" that she fell in love with was not the "me" in person. I think we all can say that we have a certain "personality" online or on the phone, and it is not always consistent with out personality in real life.Her declaration of love put me in a very uncomfortable position: do I continue this relationship, or end it, with minimum pain? I really had no choice but to withdraw gradually from the relationship. When she noticed what I was doing ("Why don't you call much anymore?"), she had the time to evaluate our relationship objectively. Once she realized where the relationship stood, she was ready to have "the talk," and it made everything so much easier in the end.Why did I say all this? I wanted to drive home a point- people, many times while dating, do not get to know the "real" person behind that mask. Certainly there are ways to get to know a person, but it always takes time and patience. If everyone slowed down a bit in thier relationships, and really thought hard about it, and realize that infatuation is different than love, maybe there would be a lower divorce rate, maybe people's credit would not be ruined, and maybe people could afford to have one spouse home full time.Interesting thought- Eskimos have several words for snow. Similarly, the Hebrew people have several words defining what we call love. Why do we only have one word for love?? Just a thought.....

[Stryder]

Kevin, 37, is a computer programmer, making $80,000 a year, $48,000 after taxes.

Man, not sure who is doing his taxes, but I need to introduce this guy to a REAL accountant.

[Prelude76]

Kevin, 37, is a computer programmer, making $80,000 a year, $48,000 after taxes.

Man, not sure who is doing his taxes, but I need to introduce this guy to a REAL accountant.

i was thinking the same thing. i guess he never heard of 'make a semi-fake home business and write off everything to cut down on your taxes', heh? The programmers story was more like a severe case of "the woman wears the pants in the household" syndrome. and i also feel that woman have more part time jobs because thats all that's being offered to many ladies is positions as waitresses, store employees, cleaning maids, and other predominantly female oriented fields. why? simple, the owners dont want to pay benefits and insurance, so they scatter max 20 hours a week across 7 days at all hours of the day.

The husband and wife in a family situation need to help each other control each other's spending. Some friends of mine did this with great results- they agreed (when they got married) to never spend more than $25 without talking about it first. Many of the spending problems today result from impulse purchases.

woah, might be just me, but i'm a different train of thought. since i make da money, i spend da money as i see fit. and if gf wants something special that she cant afford on her part-time wages, like a new couch, then we sit down and discuss it. oh, and i always do the final price negotiations with salespeople (coz women seem to have a real problem with trying to knock down a price to lowest possible deal; dont shoot the messenger, i was it on Dr. Phil too. )"Yeah, that's great that 'PAY NO TAX AND SHIPPING' doesnt apply to this special advertised price, but if you want me to buy it, it WILL apply. "

[Guest LilBambi]

I have been on many different sides of this subject:I stayed home with my 3 children till they were in school fulltime, then went to work fulltime.I created crafts (frames, photo albums, cabbage patch type dolls, etc.) while my children were pre-school age to help with the household income.When they were in school fulltime, I went to back to work fulltime outside the home.I found that during the summer and during holidays, I netted $10/week which barely covered my gas so I could net $90/week during the school year (when they were in school, and I might add that with teacher's day off, etc. it also creates a mess).The reason this was the case is that regardless of the job, there was still after school daycare that was needed, and in the summer the daycare timeframe was fulltime plus travel time. Good daycare is very hard to come by. Excellent daycare is virtually non-existent.I am glad that I stayed home with my children when they were preschool age. There were many advantages;[*] They didn't get sick as often because they were not in contact with many children on a daily basis and the myriad of childhood ailments[*] I was able to impact their awake learning time more effectively[*] They became avid readers because we spent much time reading and learning throughout the day[*] I didn't have to undo what other's perceived my children should learn[*] We were able to do many more things together than we would have been able to do otherwise.Not all women are spenders and non-producers. There are many of us that do all we can to make life better for our families, regardless of what it takes.

[ross549]

woah, might be just me, but i'm a different train of thought.  since i make da money, i spend da money as i see fit.  and if gf wants something special that she cant afford on her part-time wages, like a new couch, then we sit down and discuss it.  oh, and i always do the final price negotiations with salespeople (coz women seem to have a real problem with trying to knock down a price to lowest possible deal;  dont shoot the messenger, i was it on Dr. Phil too.    )"Yeah, that's great that 'PAY NO TAX AND SHIPPING' doesnt apply to this special advertised price, but if you want me to buy it, it WILL apply. "

Well, naturally, your situation is different. I was talking about married couples, with a shared income.

[Prelude76]

Well, naturally, your situation is different. I was talking about married couples, with a shared income.

even so, when i do get married, the last thing on my mind is to open a joint bank account. and with divorce rates at 50%+, there's many advantages to each side of the relationship to have SEPERATE bank accounts. I learnt that the hard way 4 years ago. nothing worse than realizing your spouse is messing around on you, and then having to run to the bank to put a block on your Gold VISA card and your savings account.

[ibe98765]

Well, naturally, your situation is different. I was talking about married couples, with a shared income.

even so, when i do get married, the last thing on my mind is to open a joint bank account. and with divorce rates at 50%+, there's many advantages to each side of the relationship to have SEPERATE bank accounts. I learnt that the hard way 4 years ago. nothing worse than realizing your spouse is messing around on you, and then having to run to the bank to put a block on your Gold VISA card and your savings account.

Well, having been married in the past, I'll say that you might want to give a little more thought to your statement. Marriage is about complete sharing and trust. If you can't give 100% in this area, then you shouldn't get/be married. From my life observations, marriages that go the distance recognize this. IMO, a joint bank account is one of the symbols of the acceptance of the partnership. If you aren't prepared to totally and completely share with and trust your partner, then you may find yourself in a difficult situation a few years down the road.

[Prelude76]

If you aren't prepared to totally and completely share with and trust your partner, then you may find yourself in a difficult situation a few years down the road.

nah. see, women try to engrave this "honesty is the key, so give me the key to your safety deposti box" attitude into men, and you fell for it hook line and sinker. on the contrary, if you DONT put finances in the middle of perfectly good relationship, and dont always debate every financial decision, the relationship would be stronger. majority of break ups have to do with financial issues, so if you keep 'personal' finances seperate, its elminates that whole factor. and if you have a girl that's pushing you to unlock your bank account as a sign of your trust, you best start running for the hills while you still can.

[Cluttermagnet]

I have been on many different sides of this subject:I stayed home with my 3 children till they were in school fulltime, then went to work fulltime.I created crafts (frames, photo albums, cabbage patch type dolls, etc.) while my children were pre-school age to help with the household income.When they were in school fulltime, I went to back to work fulltime outside the home.I found that during the summer and during holidays, I netted $10/week which barely covered my gas so I could net $90/week during the school year (when they were in school, and I might add that with teacher's day off, etc. it also creates a mess).The reason this was the case is that regardless of the job, there was still after school daycare that was needed, and in the summer the daycare timeframe was fulltime plus travel time. Good daycare is very hard to come by. Excellent daycare is virtually non-existent.I am glad that I stayed home with my children when they were preschool age. There were many advantages;[*] They didn't get sick as often because they were not in contact with many children on a daily basis and the myriad of childhood ailments[*] I was able to impact their awake learning time more effectively[*] They became avid readers because we spent much time reading and learning throughout the day[*] I didn't have to undo what other's perceived my children should learn[*] We were able to do many more things together than we would have been able to do otherwise.Not all women are spenders and non-producers. There are many of us that do all we can to make life better for our families, regardless of what it takes.

Very good, Fran-I think you did the right thing. Ages 0 to 5 are the formative years, and probably the most important of all. Everything beyond is layered on the basic personality and values kids develop then. Probably such an important time that no value can be put on it in terms of later quality of life and lifetime earning power of your kids. I will always be supportive of stay at home moms, even if the decision does not make financial sense on the surface. This is a very personal decision, however, and I do not fault those moms who must work or choose to work. BTW in addition to crafts and such, Ebay selling has caught on, with some enterprising types generating surprising amounts of income that way. These days when you see a young mother with kids in tow at those garage and church sales, it may be Ebay Sally out there scarfing up good, cheap items for later resale. I'm all for home business, if you can make a go of it- or even just break even. With kids, the stakes are high. I'm grateful my mother was able to be a stay at home mom. I think it had a very positive impact on me, including with the reading skills. I remember distinctly being in my earliest reading class at school, with those classic Dick and Jane readers. I was without doubt at least a grade ahead of the other kids, reading aloud quite smoothly while most of my classmates stumbled painfully over the simple text.

[ross549]

I grew up on a family farm, where everyone worked from dawn till dusk.... it really set me on the right path, and I am grateful. My mom and dad both got to raise us kids, although I am sure that they did not like it at times. I think that there is no better teacher for kids than their parents, especially during the young years. So much of the child's values these days are at risk from the outside influence, and if the children do not have a stable home, it becomes all the more difficult for them to lead a stable life later in their years.

[Prelude76]

sometimes though, its these 'stable well-raised kids' that are the first to crack, once exposed to real city life or stress or emergency. just something to think about. you have a kid that's raised in the slums of brooklyn, witness a stabbing and a shooting at early age, had his shoes stolen on his way to school, etc... and then you have a straight-A student from the farm, always did everything he's supposed to do. you put them both on a subway 15 years later in their life, where a criminal is robbing an old grandma, it might be the poor kid who grew up in rough neighborhood that might stand up and be a hero, while the straight-A kid might just pee his pants as he hides in the corner.point is, good parenting can occur anywhere. you dont need to be raised on a farm to be a good kid. and if a kid was raised in the ghetto, doesnt mean he'll turn out to be a bad apple. sometimes, life can teach a kid a lot more than parents ever could.

[Guest LilBambi]

Thanks Cluttermagnet I agree, staying at home for parents (moms and dads) is a very personal thing. And one is not necessarily better or worse, quality time is always better than quantity time.I made the most of the time. As do most parents, working or stay at home parents. You do the best you can. That's all anyone can ask.Sure there are women who take advantage of a situation for their own ends, self serving, but there are just as many men who do the same thing.I spent time with my kids during their 0-5 years and am glad I did.Our daughters thought long and hard about their own families lives and what would be necessary to survive and what they could do to spend more quality time with their children.Out of all the long and hard thinking; Our younger daughter decided regardless she was going to be a stay at home mom and our older daughter who had to work full time for awhile, is now working part time so she can stay at home with their daughter as much as possible. Both their husbands spend as much time as possible with the family as well.They asked for my advice but I told them they have to make their own decision on these things based on their own family situation. It is not a decision someone else can make for them.Prelude, you may be right in some circumstances ... it is good to have 'street sense' as well as just plain old ordinary 'horse sense.'But having 'street sense' also doesn't guarantee bravery or being a hero either. There are just as many cowards and manipulators (out for their won good) who grew up on streets as anywhere else on the planet.You know the old saying, "Whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" ... one way or another. And it's not always a good thing.

[Stryder]

sometimes, life can teach a kid a lot more than parents ever could.

A good parent teaches their kids the realities of life, not shelter them from it. Regardless of where they grow up. I grew up in a odd household. My parents divorced when I was 2. I spent time pretty evenly between the two until I was 12 when my dad died. Growing up my dad owned 2 "Topless" bars. My mom worked for 30 years for a very well known financial newspaper. And both parents were involved in thier own......extracurricular business ventures. Money was never tight, but we were not "well to do" by any stretch. While my folks stressed school, the biggest thing to them was raising kids who could deal with the realities of life and treating people with respect. My grandparents on my dads side were from Sicily....you do the math. During my teens and early 20's I lived a pretty wild life. Had my first apartment when I was 17. Drank lots of alcohol, smoked lots of......stuff, and chased every girl in a skirt or tight pair of jeans within a 50 mile radius. Left Indiana with nothing but a backpack and a couple thousand dollars when I was 19 or 20. I traveled all over this country and had many great experiences. I also had more than a few of bad ones, and a couple that sometimes I feel lucky to have lived through. If not for my parents teaching me the realities of life, I would probably not be typing this right now.So I guess what I am trying to say is, life is a great teacher. But it sure makes a big difference when you had parents that helped prepare you for what life is REALLY like, instead of hiding the harsh realities of it from you.

[Grasshopper]

Each couple has to work out the burdens of making ends meet and working for themselves. It's great that Fran was able to stay at home during the formative years with her kiddos. I almost wish that we could have that situation, but for me (and this is does not come from a sexist position or a male first ego) I would rather my wife work. I've stated that to her and she understands. She's a teacher for special-ed preschoolers, so she becomes attached to her kids and really enjoys her work (even though Oklahoma teachers get paid squat), but I've seen her mother's situation, she stayed at home and babysat other kids. Since my father-in-law (both of my in-laws are now deceased) had three girls, he and I quickly became good friends and talked and he (at the time was in his mid-40's) somewhat protested that his wife didn't work. They agreed at some point to do it that way but he still didn't like it a lot. He felt a little like "a beast of burden". That has influenced my preference for my wife to work. My father-in-law and I were a lot alike. I think that I would resent it a little. So not only do you have to do the right thing financially but you also have to consider your personality type in the equation. Would you be OK if you wife (or husband) stayed at home and made small change and stayed relaxed while you you made the medium/big bucks and ground out the commute everyday?? Tough questions. I personally am working parttime as a pharmacist (I'm picky and the economy sucks...bad combo). But, I am lucky to have some choices right now. I've had a possible job offer for a full time position with the state. I'm considering going back to school fulltime. My friends band is getting ready to take off and he and another mutual friend (who is funding recording studio time and CD production) want to pay me, as incentive, to make their website into a profitable venture. What does my wife say about all this?? She actually is in favor of me going back to school, which will obviously be the most financially burdening of the choices. Don't get me started on daycare....sheesh! :angry2:Prelude, I hope that you can find someone that sees the financial part of a relationship the same as you do. Otherwise, I think both of you would be in trouble from the get-go. I personally don't agree with how you see it, but it might work if you found a girl that thought the same way and wouldn't have her feelings hurt by how you saw it.Stryder, I think it's one thing to learn from your previous experiences with "life", the hard knocks, the lessons learned by messing up, etc., but I think it's an entirely different thing to try to properly raise your kids. Everyone is different, granted, but I think nowadays, most people want to raise their kids the best they can. I don't believe in the "I let you live your own life" philosophy. I just think that their is a MUCH greater chance of growing up messed up somehow. Yes, if you're strong enough, you'll come out pretty well for yourself with some good war stories, but I think that is exception rather than the rule. I see so many angry and addicted people coming thru the pharmacy where I work. More times than not, you get beaten down by the rough life rather than you beating it. I have two young girls (almost 4 years and just past 5 months). I strongly believe that if I let my girls "learn the ropes" on their own, I think they will turn into something unsavory. They would be a shame to me as a father and more importantly, a detriment to their life. So I'm trying to be my kids' teacher, and not let life do that yet. Yes, life makes you make decisions. You can't stay in a bubble all your life, but if I can influence the rate at which my daughter's see life's ugliness, then I think I've been a good father. Just like in Karate Kid......"You must learn balance, Daniel-san!"

[Stryder]

tbird, I think you either missed my point or I did a bad job explaining it. In no way did I mean to let your kids "live their own life", or to let them get exposed to the ugliness on their own. My parents and oldest brother (who is ten years older than me) always talked to me about the bad things and bad situations that they had gone through and the bad things and bad types of people in the world. On a regular basis. They did not try and hide that from me. They tried to prepare me for those situations and those type of people. We used to do a lot of "what ifs". You know, like what if you were in this scenario, how would you handle it....how would you respond. We would do "what ifs" from everything to what if a car was coming at you on the wrong side of the road to what would you do if you were at a bar or a party and someone pulled out a gun, to sex, to drugs, to money matters, to how you relate with a cop if you get pulled over or whatever. You name it, we went over the scenario. All I was saying is that it is better to be prepared as much as possible in case you run into these situations in your life than to have had no preperation for the ugly side of life at all. They did not try and hide it....they tried to make me ready for it. And they did. Also, by my parents always being that open with me, I never once felt like I could not talk to them about a situation that came up involving myself or a situation i had seen.....good or bad.

[ibe98765]

This is a good discussion. While child rearing was a sub-topic of the author's article (relinked here: Article), I think his position was that child rearing was often being used more as an excuse for a woman not to work. This choice puts a heavy burden of stress and financial pressure on the man of the house, often leading to dissatisfaction with job and life and even depression on the man's part. These symptoms may contribute to the current high divorce rate in many 1st world countries.

[volunteer]

Kevin, 37, is a computer programmer, making $80,000 a year, $48,000 after taxes.

Man, not sure who is doing his taxes, but I need to introduce this guy to a REAL accountant.

Depends on where you live and work, taxes vary a lot. $48,000 isn't a lot for a family of four in a lot of urban areas. I do admire Kevin and his wife agreeing in advance as to their having two children and a mother at home.Don't think she doesn't earn her keep! I was a single father with two boys for a couple of years. I came to learn how much it takes to care for two nearly teen boys. Getting them ready in the morning, taking them to school, picking them up, cooking dinner, cleaning house, doing laundry, washing dishes, grocery shopping, doctor and dentist visits, teacher conferences, and hanging out together. Folks, it takes a lot of energy and love and I admire everyone that does that day in and out.