martinpaulrice Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I'm not sure why I'm writing this to this group, but I guess I needed to tell this story to a bunch of Winnies. First my creds: bought my first personal computer in 1979 and have been computing ever since. In 1989 started what turned out to be a very successful software company and sold it in 1995.Without a lot of background, let me begin with buying two new computers about three weeks ago, one for my wife and one for me. Really nice machines, hp pavilions t230m with those fabulous flat screens (hp pavilion f1503). They're running XP home. Installed a bunch of software that we use regularly. Set up a home network and of course internet connections (don't have broadband so just a telephone dialup).And here's what happened:First let me say that the machines were both protected with antivirus programs and firewalls; first McAfee and then Norton and then McAfee and then Norton again.1. On the day I set up my machine the first time I went to use help I got a message that it wasn't there. Called HP and they said that since I bought it that day it was DOA and I should take it back to where I bought it (Office Depot, San José, Costa Rica) and get them to exchange it. Duely done. Of course I had to reload everything again, set up the network, etc., etc.2. On day two, we get up in the morning and my wife's machine (which was on all night) was continuously rebooting, that is, could never get through the boot process and kept trying. Well, we have some pretty eratic electric service in Costa Rica, so I figured there had been a spike or surge (even though the machines are on UPS's).This required a complete restore and even though the data files were saved in the process, all the software had to be reinstalled, etc., etc., etc.3. Also on day two, both of our machines began shutting down every time we went online. The old RPC thing. Didn't take long to find out about MSBLAST. Don't know why the protection programs didn't work, that is, catch the worm; they were up to date.4. A few days later, my machine does the same thing that my wifes did, that is, began that constant rebooting process. Couldn't believe it! Called hp support. Told me there was a good chance that there was a virus which caused this. However, didn't have a suggestion about what it was and wouldn't even say that this was absolutely the case, but "probably." (Reminds me of the early 80s when almost every time you called for support they told you to reformat your hard drive.)I did notice, however, that this happened not over night, but immediately upon restarting my machine after downloading MS security updates, about 22 meg.So.....another restore, another period of many, many hours getting everything setup. Getting MSBLAST every time I went on line for a couple of minutes. Found the trick of disabling by stopping the process. Got all the updates from Norton which I was now using again and was able to stay online to download them all.Then decided to get all the MS security updates. Spent hours online getting them all. Restarted the machine and WACK!! the constant reboot thing again.Meanwhile my wife was online for about 5 minutes today downloading her email and she was informed twice in the five minutes that a virus was intercepted and destroyed (McAfee this time).This is no way to live!I'm writing this on my Apple PowerBook G4. I started with Apple many, many years ago and built my software business with it until after a few years we added Windows software too. Somehow I made the horribl mistake of drifting to Windows. That's it, I'm finished. I'll donate these two machines to a poor school here, get my wife a Mac, and never worry about all this crap again. (For those of you who don't know, there are no viruses on the Mac). The new operating system 10 (and now, as of yesterday the upgrade Panther) are probably the most stable systems on any computer. Yep, there's not nearly as much software for the Mac, only about 6,500 programs. Somehow I think that will be enough for me.Goodbye Windows and war, hello Mac and peace and PRODUCTIVITY NOT PUTZING AROUND FOR DAYS AND WEEKS ON END ACOMPLISHING NOTHING.Martin RiceSantiago de Puriscal, Costa Rica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThunderRiver Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 First of all, you should keep your system updated with the latest patches.Second of all, McAfee and Norton Antivirus can't save you from RPC vulnerability because they aren't firewalls.Third of all, Mac is good for the price you pay for. However, Mac OS X is not the most robost OS in the world either. You can certainly crash Mac OS X, and nothing can stop it. True that it doesn't have virus, and that's because no one is developing yet, considering the fact Mac doesn't occupy as much market share as Windows does.Enjoy your Mac, and perhaps you could do poor school a favor by fixing what you didn't fix in the first place before sending computers to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrine Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 It seems that people using Outlook and the other download programs have the most problems with worms & viruses. I stick to webmail and have made it clear that I don't open unrequested attachments. My daughter learned the hard way that I meant business. Her computer was in the shop so she went to the school computer lab to do research for a paper she was working on. Rather than stay the extra time to print out the documents she located, she emailed the results of hours of research in a document to me. Unfortunately, the return address on the email was her ID on the school's computer, not her regular email address. When I saw the unexpected email from an unknown address with the large attachment, I immediately deleted it and emptied the trash. She called me about several hours later -- too late. Practice safe computing:-- Don't open attachments unless you know what they are first.-- Always have a firewall between you and the outside world.-- Regularly update the DAT files for your AV software.-- Update and run AdAware.-- Install and update Spyware Blaster.-- Strongly consider anti-trojan software.-- Keep your computer updated with the latest MS security patches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martini Lover Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Venting is good. If I was venting, it would be about the Detroit Lions. I think they startup and shut down, and I know it must be a virus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prelude76 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Enjoy your Mac, and perhaps you could do poor school a favor by fixing what you didn't fix in the first place before sending computers to them.i believe he was venting about the fact he doesnt HAVE to patch/protect/guard/update/fix his mac all the time, like a typical windows user. sometimes, i think all this windows bugs/worms/viruses are a secret plot from Redmond called "Job Creation Program" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prelude76 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Practice safe computing:-- Don't open attachments unless you know what they are first.-- Always have a firewall between you and the outside world.-- Regularly update the DAT files for your AV software.-- Update and run AdAware.-- Install and update Spyware Blaster.-- Strongly consider anti-trojan software.-- Keep your computer updated with the latest MS security patches.great tips, but you try telling them to a typical XP user. they will stare at you blankly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winston Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 true i had a hard time trying to explain that to my mother who uses the computer at home. she asks , is that what i have to do just to check some mails ???? what can i say ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsden11 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Anybody who connects to the Internet should be required to install a hardware firewall, whether for dial-up (they make them still) or broadband. Blaster would never have happened... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havnblast Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Another reason why I like to build my own computers - no generic stuff these companies throw together with restore cds with a modified operating system. First thing I would do with a store bought computer is format it and get a full operating system cd. No matter what OS computer you buy your going to need updates - no getting around that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Hmm...As part of my format and reinstall of MDK 9.2 and Windows 2000, I was in Windows for a while. I was getting messenger windows nearly every 30 seconds!! I really don't know how people deal with that..... and popups. I haven't had a popup since I started using Mozilla.It makes me want to ditch windows entirely.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havnblast Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Turn off the messenger service to stop the messenger messages and yes MozillaFirebird works great in Windows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 The new operating system 10 (and now, as of yesterday the upgrade Panther) are probably the most stable systems on any computer.Do you really think so ?See this:http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?128...j9b.2@.599b4a59http://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/2...207&mode=threadhttp://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/2...222&mode=threadhttp://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=03/10/2...ad&threshold=-1Better think twice ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Turn off the messenger service to stop the messenger messages and yes MozillaFirebird works great in Windows.Well, yeah I knew about that.... but most users will not. I don't know how they deal with it. It is truly awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest genaldar Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Anybody who connects to the Internet should be required to install a hardware firewall, whether for dial-up (they make them still) or broadband. Blaster would never have happened...Blaster wouldn't have happened if everyone applied the patch that was available for that hole. Firewall or no firewall.btw mac isn't safe from holes either. sendmail, ssh, openssl, samba and apache have all had security holes that needed fixing (including versions shipping in os x). Check out secure mac to find out some security issues with os x.Forgot to add this:I was getting messenger windows nearly every 30 seconds!! I really don't know how people deal with that..... and popups. I haven't had a popup since I started using Mozilla.Why didn't you disable messenger? I think even new users would've gotten frustrated enough at that point to find out how to get rid of those messenger pop ups. Why didn't you use mozilla? Or better yet let those pop ups show up and click on one once in a while and support a site that gives you free content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrine Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 great tips, but you try telling them to a typical XP user. they will stare at you blankly Why do you say that? What makes an XP user different from W2K, for example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prelude76 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Why didn't you disable messenger? I think even new users would've gotten frustrated enough at that point to find out how to get rid of those messenger pop ups. Why didn't you use mozilla?that falls into the "blame the victim for the computer's annoyances" category. Messenger should never have been ENABLED by default in XP. if you're an admin and you need it, then you would know how to turn it on. but enabled something that only about 1% of XP users need if very stupid on MS's part. oh, and by the way, Messenger service is DISABLED by default in windows 2003 server. so the one place it *might* be of use in, its disabled there. At the very least, MS should issue a patch that setups up proper defaults to list of running services. Or better yet let those pop ups show up and click on one once in a while and support a site that gives you free content.woah, let's avoid this topic altogether. Free content in exchange for ads? that's what caused the big internet bubble burst! :lol:i so much prefer either pay-sites if it's warranted, or free hobby sites people just do for fun. the whole free-but-supported-thru-ads is such a '90s way of thinking. Anybody who connects to the Internet should be required to install a hardware firewall, whether for dial-up (they make them still) or broadband. Blaster would never have happened...'required' is such a dictator sounding term. how about just 'recommended'? oh, and if everyone was still on windows98, Blaster would never have happened. and whats wrong with software firewall? blocks just as good as hardware, yet also filters out the onslaught of phone-home software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prelude76 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 great tips, but you try telling them to a typical XP user.  they will stare at you blankly Why do you say that? What makes an XP user different from W2K, for example? with the big shiny new start menu and big shiny control panel, showing you whats freshly installed by highlighting it, hiding desktop items not being used, automatically assuming you want to resize every picture you want to email, and blocking you from all attachments in an email, both good and bad ones, all these 'innovations' make me assume that MS designed this OS with the lowest common idiot in mind.that being said, yes, the majority of idiots out there right now are running XP. they all migrated over from winME. and yes, people that use win2K are 'generally' more knowledgeable, since MS never advertised win2k to the typical home user. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Don't go picking on the XP user, as not all of us are idiots... I could be running 2k, but much prefer XP. I have a lot of the extra stuff turned off, but I actually like the new start menu. For someone who doesn't use a lot of stuff, and doesn't like desktop icons, it works quite well. All I'm saying is watch what you say, as I'm sure there are quite a few XP users here (and we're not all idiots). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjf123 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 All I'm saying is watch what you say, as I'm sure there are quite a few XP users here (and we're not all idiots).I think the typical XP user who frequents Scot's Forums is a more advanced user than Joe Average Home User. When I try to explain some of the security issues surrounding the use of XP, IE, OE, etc., I get the same blank stares. The average user just doesn't care to understand why they have to worry about those kinds of issues. While I use XP Home at work, I still run 98 at home, and am also getting tired of the constant patching and updating. Both my home and work systems are kept behind routers with NAT, plus a software firewall, updated anti virus, and updated anti trojan programs. I've also recently added a Mac to my home setup and am slowing moving everything from the Win system to it. Even though I've [knocking on wood] never had a virus, worm, or trojan, [/knocking on wood], I'm tired of having to deal with the potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunrat Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 It never ceases to amaze me how many computers I see (friends, business etc.) which have no firewall and/or antivirus software which was installed and never updated.Several people have said they didn't think it was important for dial-up! I totally agree that most XP services (including Messenger srvc) should be disabled by default. If you need them, you would probably know to enable them.Messenger service can also be blocked with a firewall rule - just block port 135 from the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 This is why I've become pro-active with my family and friends. Anytime I hear about new viruses/worms/etc. I send out an email explaining things. I've helped quite a few of my family members from getting infected, and they're now all running AV's and firewalls. It took some work on my part, but I've now got all of them (including my grandparents) educated enough that I feel safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prelude76 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 oh come on now people, i cant believe i have to SPELL OUT what i was saying. i did NOT say all XP users are idiots. since i've used XP many times myself, i'd just be calling myself an idiot if that was the case, wouldn't i?i said most of the computer idiots out there (and believe me, there are tons of them, my parents and brothers being a prime example) are running XP because it is the easiest OS for them to use. i know its powerful and can be tweaked, but if you had next to zero computer knowledge, would u prefer to run XP or win2k ? or Linux? and since Microsoft obviously targeted BOTH professional tweakers AND complete n00bs with XP, they should've put a bit more effort into setting the approriate service defaults and having firewall turned on by default, instead of concentrating to make sure MSN Messenger was activated during first boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prelude76 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 It never ceases to amaze me how many computers I see (friends, business etc.) which have no firewall and/or antivirus software which was installed and never updated.Several people have said they didn't think it was important for dial-up! I totally agree that most XP services (including Messenger srvc) should be disabled by default. If you need them, you would probably know to enable them.Messenger service can also be blocked with a firewall rule - just block port 135 from the internet.excellent point, sunrat. and i can see Microsoft realized their MISTAKE, as windows 2003 server not only has those services disabled, but ALSO has the built-in firewall ENABLED! it at least gives me hope that perhaps Longhorn might be designed with smarter set of defaults.now why can't they just issue a patch for all XP users that would change their defaults and enable firewall if no 3rd party firewall is detected? that's not a hard thing to do. they someone manage to get everyone XP to have the Help & Support service magically re-enable itself, i'm sure they can force non-firewalled computers to re-enable the built-in firewall at the very least. and since MS acquire that AV company from Romania, maybe perhaps (cross my fingers) that Longhorn will have AV built in and TURNED ON by default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryB Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 PreludeAre you stirring the pot again ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peachy Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 In all of this, don't the hardware vendors have some responsibility, too. I mean, if you are selling PCs to consumers, can it not be so hard make sure that it has the most recent updates and security patches installed? These guys make restore CDs so they could at least patch the things before they ship an image out. Whenever I build systems for friends and family it never leaves my house until I am satisfied that it has been patched, firewalled and virus protected. I don't want support calls at midnight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prelude76 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 PreludeAre you stirring the pot again ... actually, i think the pot was already boiling over with the first post just adding a bit more 'salt' to the pot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinpaulrice Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 ThunderRiver:Don't understand what you mean about McAfee and Norton but perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Each company has both an antivirus product and a firewall. And our machines had/have both installed.Thanks for the response. As far as cleaning up the machines before giving them to the schools, we've done that. Did a complete restore on both (once again) so that they are exactly as they were when they came from the factory.Regards,Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prelude76 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 did u mean you had both firewalls running on each machine? if you did, that's your problem. having 2 firewalls can actually really mess up your system and leave it vulnerable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 IIRC, XP Service Pack 2 (when it actually is released will be anyone's guess), is supposed to turn on the Firewall if not already enabled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 At least with XP vs. 2k a user can have a firewall before they connect to the internet WITHOUT having to go buy a program on CD. If you don't go out and buy a firewall before connecting with 2k, and you don't have one downloaded from before, you're without a doubt going to get Blasted. XP at least gives the user the option to firewall immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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