ross549 Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 This seems to perfectly explain the problem I have with DRM..... (Worth the download if you are bandwidth challenged, like I am right now.)I don't think my stance could be any more clear. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 (edited) That's a great ad!I'd like to point out that DRM is not only killing music, but it's also killing what once made technology such a great and novel thing: compatibility, interchangeability and endless interface possibilities. Yes, there is still some of that, but like a frog in water being brought to a boil, we are being sucked into a DRM vortex in future and current technology. It's becoming worse than it once was.See that cigarette lighter plug in your car? Ever think that, when it was implemented, that we'd be plugging in laptops, cell phones and portable navigation systems in it?How about that VGA plug in the back of your computer that works with nearly every single monitor ever made? What good is it to manufacturers of computer monitors to sink millions of dollars of R&D and man-hours into making some vicious DRM-crippled interface that will allow their own customers to do less with the products they've paid good money for?What about Internet protocols like HTTP and standards like HTML? And openly-available file format standards like MP3, FLAG, OGG, and so forth? Technology is useless without open standards!Just imagine, if you can, how far behind we'd be if these kinds of things would have been woefully restricted and individualized in the ways that DRM aims for.And their not fooling anyone when they give us their BS about "compatible DRM". That's impossible, because one the main purposes of DRM (the first one being to slowly rip consumers' rights away and screw them over at every angle) is for anti-competition. To lock your customers into a system over which you have complete control. "Compatible DRM" is an oxymoron more than it is anything else.....Now...where's the donation fund to get this in a good primetime TV spot?? Edited October 5, 2006 by epp_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsden11 Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Stop people from stealing and illegally sharing protected content and DRM will disappear...But there is the rub... stealing and sharing have become too easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted October 5, 2006 Author Share Posted October 5, 2006 True, but in spite of all the DRM out there, has piracy and theft changed? Has it slowed at all? I, at this point, do not know of a DRM scheme that hasn't been broken by hackers. The only people this is really affecting is the casual downloader or the normal user who simply wants to listen to his music on the platform of his own choosing. The "piracy cartels" were not even remotely affected by DRM, as soon as the hacks were posted online.I don't think DRM is doing a bit of good in terms of preventing piracy. In fact, I think it will eventually hurt the companies' bottom line in the long run. End of story. :(Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 (edited) Stop people from stealing and illegally sharing protected content and DRM will disappear...But there is the rub... stealing and sharing have become too easy.Get over it, Marsden. DRM causes people to do things that are considered "illegal". There's that little thing called the DMCA: suddenly taking apart or otherwise disassembling your own belongings that you paid money for is illegal! DRM only drives people to more of what you call "stealing".You are right that it's become easy. That's because of technology. Copyright is inherently technological and needs to conform to technology, just like it did when people could record their own cassettes and when people could freely watch and record their own movies on their VCR tapes.I, at this point, do not know of a DRM scheme that hasn't been broken by hackers.Yup, and it's because your mom was right: you may be smart, but there's always someone who's smarter than you. A DRM system may be clever (hardly, but just stick with the example), but there will always be someone clever and determined enough that it will be broken.I don't think DRM is doing a bit of good in terms of preventing piracy.You're right, it isn't. DRM isn't there to prevent piracy. That's a scapegoat, a lie. DRM exists to rip away fair use rights and restrict what consumers are allowed to do with their own belongings. Period.In fact, I think it will eventually hurt the companies' bottom line in the long run.Oh, it will and it has. But, you see, powerful corporations like the MPAA and the RIAA do these things called "spin-doctoring" and "donating" "bribing". Then they blame it all on piracy and get their own laws written to further their attack against their own customers. Of course it's going to hurt the bottom line. Edited October 5, 2006 by epp_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil P Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 DRM does not do anything except harm the honest users. Dishonest users will still be dishonest. DRM has not stopped piracy, it has not stopped torrents or other file sharing methods. It won't stop either method.So the example is this: I buy music from iTunes. The only place I can listen to it are in iTunes, and on an iPod. I could burn a CD, but that's not feasible (my car doesn't have a CD player, for one thing). So, since I have an iPod now, that's great. What happens when I go to replace it? I have to buy another iPod, or I can buy a new mp3 player and then buy all the music again. How is that right?If I had bought the same music from the store, on a physical CD, I could have ripped the music to whatever formats I want, as many times as I want.I personally don't have a problem with the theory of DRM. I have a problem with the implementation of it. We're going from a time where we owned our music to a time where we lease it, at the whim of a few record companies.Not just music, either. Look at Amazon's Unbox movie download service. The terms of service more or less tell you that you are given absolutely no rights to the movies that you are paying for. Cory Doctorow goes through the terms of service and translates. The title of the post is "Amazon Unbox to customers: Eat s--- and die", so that's a heads up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 (edited) So the example is this: I buy music from iTunes. The only place I can listen to it are in iTunes, and on an iPod. I could burn a CD, but that's not feasible (my car doesn't have a CD player, for one thing). So, since I have an iPod now, that's great. What happens when I go to replace it? I have to buy another iPod, or I can buy a new mp3 player and then buy all the music again.Well, I don't think you have to buy the music again (don't quote me on that...I've never used iCrap and never will), but you do when you upgrade or buy a new computer more than X number of times (X being whatever Apple randomly decides is the number of times it takes for you to be a dirty pirate).But, it's bad enough that you're forced to buy another iPod, even if there's another player on the market that's twice as good and half the price (which there are).Thanks for the Doctorow link - he's a great DRM warrior! :'( Edited October 5, 2006 by epp_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolanaj Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I think we as consumers have to fight back, and that is bottom line stop buying the product. Now if you could get everyone to not buy any music for one day, it might send a message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil P Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Well, I don't think you have to buy the music again (don't quote me on that...I've never used iCrap and never will), but you do when you upgrade or buy a new computer more than X number of times (X being whatever Apple randomly decides is the number of times it takes for you to be a dirty pirate).But, it's bad enough that you're forced to buy another iPod, even if there's another player on the market that's twice as good and half the price (which there are). Well, music bought from the iTunes store will only work on an iPod. So if I bought a Creative mp3 player, any music I'd bought from iTunes won't work with it. I'd have to buy it again in some other format (iTunes uses AACs with "FairPlay" DRM) or simply live without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 (edited) Well, music bought from the iTunes store will only work on an iPod. So if I bought a Creative mp3 player, any music I'd bought from iTunes won't work with it. I'd have to buy it again in some other format (iTunes uses AACs with "FairPlay" DRM) or simply live without it.Or, sorry, I misunderstood your initial statement. Yes, that is correct. You would alternatively be able to burn your iCrap-purchased music to a CD and rip them back as MP3s, but... - It means you have a loss in quality - It's a huge waste of your time - It's tedious and cumbersome - It's a stupid amount of effort to take back the rights you should already haveThe lesson here is this: stay away from DRM!I think we as consumers have to fight back, and that is bottom line stop buying the product.Agreed! Now if you could get everyone to not buy any music for one day, it might send a message.Better yet, stop buying the recording industry's trash altogether! Edited October 5, 2006 by epp_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsden11 Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Get over it, Marsden. DRM causes people to do things that are considered "illegal".Were you screaming about DRM 20 years ago when VHS would only record 250 lines or audio cassetts would only record lower fidelity over the radio? That was DRM!!!Please tell me how DRM crawled out of your monitor, put a gun to your head and made you do things against your will... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil P Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 DRM is the wrong solution to a problem that doesn't exist. There is no realistic reason to require that any music bought through iTunes has to be played in iTunes, or on an iPod. What does the DRM actually do?1) Limits how and where paying customers can listen to the music they bought2) Limits how and where paying customers can backup and archive the music they boughtWhat purpose does DRM serve? All DRM does is lock users into a particular platform, and take away long standing fair use rights. It does not prevent piracy. It does not grant users choice in the marketplace. It does not better serve consumers. Read any TOS for any service, such as iTunes. d. You acknowledge that some aspects of the Service, Products, and administering of the Usage Rules entails the ongoing involvement of Apple. Accordingly, in the event that Apple changes any part of the Service or discontinues the Service, which Apple may do at its election, you acknowledge that you may no longer be able to use Products to the same extent as prior to such change or discontinuation, and that Apple shall have no liability to you in such case "Apple can change these terms whenever we feel like it, including preventing you from even listening to music. If that would happen, you would not get so much as a refund."With the DMCA, you can't legally get around the copy protection, even to make a copy of a file for personal, non-commercial backup.The only reason this still goes on today is that most consumers don't know it's going on.I can tell you for sure that I wasn't screaming about your so-called "VHS DRM" 20 years ago, because I'm only 20 years old. Besides, how many of those were legitimate technological limitations and how many were greedy companies? "DRM" then was wrong (there was no DMCA back then, either) just as DRM today is wrong.Join the EFF! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Well said, steeler! Were you screaming about DRM 20 years ago when VHS would only record 250 lines or audio cassetts would only record lower fidelity over the radio? That was DRM!!!To answer your question literally, well, no, because I would have been too understand at point in time ;)Otherwise, I would have been "screaming" about it, as you put.But weren't those two formats open? I think those "limitations" were natural/physical/technical.Please tell me how DRM crawled out of your monitor, put a gun to your head and made you do things against your will...Stop playing games, Marsden, you know exactly what I mean. I'm talking about the blatent disregard for and theft of consumer rights.You know why you can't copy a DVD as a backup or put a DRM-infected song on whatever portable device of your choice? DRM and the industry-sponsored DMCA that inherently allows corporations to invent and enforce their own laws with no accontability.It causes people to do things that are "illegal" because they're only doing what they should expect to be allowed to do in the first place (and rightly do), such as playing a DVD in Linux or removing the DRM from an iTunes song to put a song on something other than an iPod. There is no copyright statute that says that corporations are allowed to do this; to strip users of their legally-given fair use rights.Marsden, might I suggest that you listen to a few talks by Cory Doctorow. Check out his website, http://www.craphound.com. Get a fresh perspective on why DRM is the wrong way to go about business and why it is not a sustainable model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 Marsden, might I suggest that you listen to a few talks by Cory Doctorow. Check out his website, http://www.craphound.com. Get a fresh perspective on why DRM is the wrong way to go about business and why it is not a sustainable model. Please tell me how DRM crawled out of your monitor, put a gun to your head and made you do things against your will...Let's just say that I am a huge fan of The Daily Show, for the sake of this discussion. Assume that I am a big enough fan that I want to download individual episodes so I can view them later, because they are, hypothetically, quite funny and informative. Now, what are my options for legally purchasing/downloading these episodes?Anyone?iTunes! iTunes is the only legal way (that I know) of to purchase some content for personal use. Now, I could download the episodes off of bittorrent if I wanted to (and would probably get faster downloads too), but since the show is on cable, it is not considered Free to Air, and does not really fall under the Fair Use guidelines (correct me if I am wrong).Why is this a bad business model? Because someone will find a way around the restrictions, or a company will get the right idea and sell unencumbered downloads for the content. This applies not only to DRM but proprietary technology as well.An example I am familiar with follows. Many bands and performers are no longer using analog signals to distribute their channels of audio to the mixing board, since digital provides a cleaner signal and has less errors with ground loops, etc.For some time, there have been numerous different standards for distributing that audio via Ethernet cabling. In fact there were almost as many companies as standards! No company was willing to open their standard and let other companies use it. This year,however, the major players got together and decided on a standard. When the new equipment comes out supporting this standard, guess what is going to happen? There will finally be competition and true interoperability between equipment provided by different vendors. Why is this a good thing? It forces the companies to "innovate or die."DRM is the same way. Right now, Apple has no competition in the market to play Apple FairPlay protected content. What has Apple done this year (or last) that was truly innovative in that market? Nothing? The songs still cost the same. The players have not changed much. Nothing new or revolutionary has really happened with the ipod since it was introduced. The interface has pretty much remained the same for some time. Apple is not innovating, only raking in the profits and riding this temporary high. Soon, someone will come out with the newer, better player that shakes up the industry. Right now, the other "players" cannot even compete with Apple due to its massive market share. How would you picture the market right now if other players could play FairPlay content?Apple must innovate or die. They must also allow others to get into this market, for the good of the market, or it will disappear forever.Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBox Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 (edited) Ooooooooooooooh, nothing irks me more than this deep subject! I have been on this tirade since the availability of high quality Cassette Recorders. Over the last few decades, I have resolved to call the recording industry moguls "The Hooligan B*st*rds". I always go back to 2 thoughts on all of the "Shenanigans" that these "Hooligan B*st*rds" have created/caused in the past 35+ years:*If Beethoven's (or Mozart's or ????) music was released TODAY: Can it ever become "The Classics"... in 50years from now?*Quote from Thomas Jefferson: “That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density at any point, and like the air … incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.â€I used to be the perfect consumer that the "Hooligan B*st*rds" should have NEVER picked on.I own probably over 2000 LPs, 1000 Cassettes, and a few thousand CDs.My investment on "home" stereo equipment is well over 6 figure$.I am a Design EE, a studio engineer and a recording teacher.If I must choose; I would prefer to be blind then to be deaf!Unfortunately, the "Shenanigans" of these "Hooligan B*st*rds" finally broke this camel's back.I have vowed to never AGAIN pay for (or support) any "Shenanigans" contrived by the "Hooligan B*st*rds"... ever again!Does anyone recall CBS "Hooligan B*st*rds'" attempt to put a deep {audio} notch; smack in the middle "C", to circumvent recording of LPs??Does anyone remember the original "payola" scandals {and all of the sequels to 2006}?Does anyone recall that each/every recordable Cassette has an "excise" fee in the price (ditto "Audio" CDRs)?Does anyone remember why Sony DAT or MusicCDs never made it big in this country?Do you recall that they did not admit guilt to price-fixing/collusion charges TWICE {once as a senate hearing}?Do you recall that they were found guilty on BOTH occasions... and only got their "hands slapped" as punisment?Do you hear the "Hooligan B*st*rds" crying bloody-murder about lost profits... every year? Yet they continue to posting good profits... every year!DRM and RootKits are just the latest salvos by the "Hooligan B*st*rds".These "Shenaningans" will improve in attempts to make them almost invisible to consumer's eye!Fortunately, I am lucky to still get my required daily rations of new music ...yet, without the feelings of guilt and criminal accusations/threats!Thanks to the Cable/Satellite (including DishNetwork, DirectTV, XM and Sirius) operators for providing variety of "music" without commercials... and at very high quality levels and on the very cheap!Too bad that their "Shenanigans" mean that we have to watch more musicians go hungry!In the future, I will let the iTune generation $upport the recording company "Hooligan B*st*rds"... or until they change their spelling of the word MU$IC. Edited October 10, 2006 by RandomBox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Adam, I agree with everything you said! DRM is the same way. Right now, Apple has no competition in the market to play Apple FairPlay protected content. What has Apple done this year (or last) that was truly innovative in that market? Nothing? The songs still cost the same. The players have not changed much. Nothing new or revolutionary has really happened with the ipod since it was introduced. The interface has pretty much remained the same for some time. Apple is not innovating, only raking in the profits and riding this temporary high. Soon, someone will come out with the newer, better player that shakes up the industry. Right now, the other "players" cannot even compete with Apple due to its massive market share. How would you picture the market right now if other players could play FairPlay content?Let's make sure the right people are blamed here, don't forget. Apple is to blame for selling their souls to the media industry to get a temporary high of iPod sales. The media industry is to blame for being stupid/greedy/who-knows-what and trying to shove technology back into the box instead of innovating with it. You'd think they'd have learned by now, what with the piano tape, record players, cassette players, VCRs, CDs and what have you. But, no, they continue on to destroy the technology that fuels them. I have to shake my head in utter shame of the stupidity of fellow human beings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 I was using Apple as an example of what will happen to any company that locks themselves into a closed, proprietary system.Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I was using Apple as an example of what will happen to any company that locks themselves into a closed, proprietary system.I know, I was just trying to re-enforce your correct point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted October 11, 2006 Author Share Posted October 11, 2006 http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/10/10/if-you-o...or-protectdisc/The latest salvo in the content companies vs. the user......Want to play a DVD on your compuer? You may not be able to, even if your are 100% legit! *sigh*:(Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/10/10/if-you-o...or-protectdisc/The latest salvo in the content companies vs. the user......Want to play a DVD on your compuer? You may not be able to, even if your are 100% legit! *sigh*Which only proves the point that the **AA are after our fair use rights and not the real pirates they use as a scapegoat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 (edited) When the law itself becomes completely illegal, unethical, repressive, and immoral, everyone becomes a criminal- by definition, and by necessity. "No poaching in the King's forest, filthy peasants"! It's a long and slippery slope, but that is clearly where we are headed. The businesses that 'we the people' spawned were meant to be our servants, not our masters- or jailers. "The revolution will not be televised". DRM copyright restrictions, you know. Someone could get arrested... :whistling:It's a palpably evil thing, this DRM... Edited October 13, 2006 by Cluttermagnet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 go randombox go!Yeah! What he says! Go, RandomBox! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoardFlak Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 The current progression of DRM has only one logical ending. Content will be self-erasing after a single play. You will need to download for every play, and pay for every download. Anyone caught with content that has been played and did not self-erase will be prosecuted as a pirate, no matter how or where they got it. I am as against piracy as anyone. However, unless or until someone creates a method of protection that only screws the real pirates, we've all got our delicate parts caught in the same wringer - and the pressure isn't decreasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 So-called "piracy" will never go away. The media industry needs to go with the "if you can't beat them, join them" strategy or they will die. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Or, sorry, I misunderstood your initial statement. Yes, that is correct. You would alternatively be able to burn your iCrap-purchased music to a CD and rip them back as MP3s, but... - It means you have a loss in quality - It's a huge waste of your time - It's tedious and cumbersome - It's a stupid amount of effort to take back the rights you should already haveThe lesson here is this: stay away from DRM!Agreed! :thumbsup:Better yet, stop buying the recording industry's trash altogether!Precisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 DRM is the wrong solution to a problem that doesn't exist. There is no realistic reason to require that any music bought through iTunes has to be played in iTunes, or on an iPod. What does the DRM actually do?1) Limits how and where paying customers can listen to the music they bought2) Limits how and where paying customers can backup and archive the music they boughtWhat purpose does DRM serve? All DRM does is lock users into a particular platform, and take away long standing fair use rights. It does not prevent piracy. It does not grant users choice in the marketplace. It does not better serve consumers. Read any TOS for any service, such as iTunes. "Apple can change these terms whenever we feel like it, including preventing you from even listening to music. If that would happen, you would not get so much as a refund."With the DMCA, you can't legally get around the copy protection, even to make a copy of a file for personal, non-commercial backup.The only reason this still goes on today is that most consumers don't know it's going on.I can tell you for sure that I wasn't screaming about your so-called "VHS DRM" 20 years ago, because I'm only 20 years old. Besides, how many of those were legitimate technological limitations and how many were greedy companies? "DRM" then was wrong (there was no DMCA back then, either) just as DRM today is wrong.Join the EFF!This is right on the money!And if you follow the money trail ... this is what they have been reaching for forever! And something that Macrovision did for VHS tapes years ago, not through the law, but through a marketing gimmick to limit what you could do with your movies. Now it's so much worse, because the lobbyists of the big cartels are so blatent and have gotten the government to actually buy into their crap.Instead of the government realizing this is all still all sleight of hand marketing, as usual from them, they fell right into it and are using OUR tax dollars to enforce these ludicrous laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 What a great conversation on this topic with so many great comments on it.I only responded specifically to a couple earlier ones but I fully agree with all the negative comments about DRM mentioned in this topic.It is a blessing to see so many who see through the (as randombox calls it) shenanigans.Maybe there is hope for the world yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsden11 Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 (edited) Marsden, might I suggest that you listen to a few talks by Cory Doctorow. Check out his website, http://www.craphound.com. Get a fresh perspective on why DRM is the wrong way to go about business and why it is not a sustainable model.If DRM is unsustainable then you have nothing to worry about. It will die and go away. Consumers will vote with their dollars and the world will be right.How are consumers voting these days? Has everyone stopped purchasing from their local music store? Have they stopped buying online? Seems to me joe/jane consumer are still on board regardless of DRM. They are still voting with their money. Until they stop, DRM is SUSTAINABLE and will be for quite some time.DRM does not force anyone to do anything. Please take responsibility for your actions right or wrong. The excuse of DRM made made do it is nothing but a lame atttempt to cover youractions by shifting responsibility. You may hate DRM but if you break the law it doen't excuse you because DRM is evil. You make the choice right or wrong... EVERYTHING you do is choice.DRM has never been "jump off the roof or I'll shoot you." Edited October 14, 2006 by Marsden11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted October 14, 2006 Author Share Posted October 14, 2006 I don't think there is anyone in this thread who has said that DRM made them and go download music illegally. All my music is purchased legally, on CD. I simply will not purchase the music, if it comes to me in a restricted format.Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 What I don't understand, Marsden, is how you can be so whole-heartedly "pro" such a thing as DRM... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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