PartitionMagic problems: #701 and #1516

[epp_b]

I have a two hidden logical partitions at the end of my drive each containing an installation of XP. Whenever I try to copy either one of them anywhere using PQPM 8 for DOS, I get errors #1516 ("Partition improperly dismounted") and #701 ("Unexpected INT 13h Error"). I have already tried running CHKDSK from the repair console on the XP installation CD as well as making these partitions visible so that I can run CHKDSK from Windows. It appears to work...once. The next time I try and copy it, PQPM will give me the same error.This also happens when I copy this partition anywhere when the task (or any other task) requires PQPM to make the changes in pre-boot mode.It should also be noted that neither of these partitions should have the dirty flag set. One is a copy of my OS of a few weeks old, which was booted properly. Another is a bare-bones clean install of XP -- I've never hard reset with that one or done anything at all to have it set the dirty flag.Strangely, if I connect a drive via a USB (2.0, thankfully) enclosure in PQPM 8.0 for Windows, I can copy these same partitions without a problem in Windows (I haven't tried invoking a pre-boot operation with a USB enclosure, because it reverts to USB 1.1 and is very slow).I've tried everything here (701) and here (1516), neither of which have solved the problem permanently.Any other ideas?EDIT: I just installed the 8.0.1 PQPM upgrade and the #1513 patch (1513: no typo). I'll see if it makes a difference for next time.

Edited February 25, 2006 by epp_b

[epp_b]

Nobody knows? :(The upgrades/patches didn't help.

Edited March 13, 2006 by epp_b

[epp_b]

It seems that if I disable IDE DMA mode, it works, but veeeeerrrry sloooowlllyyy...Well, it's been nice talking to myself :hysterical:

[Marsden11]

Your issues are exactly why I don't use 3rd party partitioning tools. The more complexity you add to your system the greater your chance for unexpected results.

[epp_b]

Your issues are exactly why I don't use 3rd party partitioning tools.

Uh...then what do you use?

The more complexity you add to your system the greater your chance for unexpected results.

I've never had this problem before a few weeks ago. It seems to have happened after my motherboard was replaced with a different model on warranty (which explains why the changing settings in the BIOS works). Edited March 13, 2006 by epp_b

[b2cm]

Write the developers of PM8 for information about errors you are getting. They alone knows what PM8 does (or does not do) during the copying which results in 'dirty flags' or 'INT 13h error' the you are getting.That copy function works very well when the copying is disk-to-disk, sector-to-sector. You're probably be better off cloning to an image, instead of this copying back and forth between a primary partition and a logical partition on the same disk.

[Marsden11]

Uh...then what do you use?

The built-in tools in MS Disk Management. Has done everything I need since Windows 2000 shipped. No errors even after swapping out motherboards.

[epp_b]

The built-in tools in MS Disk Management.

Those are pretty weak and not even close to capable for my needs.

[burninbush]

Those are pretty weak and not even close to capable for my needs.

I guess what I don't understand is what you are doing exactly with PM??? I have =never= found that my only choice was to resize a partition. I would not do it if I had any option at all, and it's hard to imagine getting into a situation where I'd have no options. Most generally, I'd just make ghost images of the partitions' contents, then wipe the disk, then repartition it as needed, and then reload the images with ghost. Ghost will happily restore NT & dos images to partitions of a different size than they came from [only have to be big enough to hold the contents -- or you can make them arbitrarily bigger]. It even has switches to do bit-for-bit copying if imaging linux parts, though those can't be restored to parts of a size other than what they came from. Ghost will load an image to a raw hard disk -- partitioning and formatting on the fly. Planning ahead is what a pro would do -- and then just execute the plan. The way I see it, if you have to resize a partition, that means you screwed it up in the first place. Better to just bite the bullet and do it over. If you intend to put linux installs on the same disk with NT, then you should probably do the initial partition of the entire disk with a linux tool like cfdisk; this to accomodate the arcane requirements of linux [re where partitions can begin and end] -- NT /dos tools may not get that right.

[Marsden11]

Those are pretty weak and not even close to capable for my needs.

Weak or not my 12 machines just run without errors. What good is more powerful if all you get are errors or more issues?I prefer machines that work.

[epp_b]

Weak or not my 12 machines just run without errors. What good is more powerful if all you get are errors or more issues?

What good is a perfectly working machine if it doesn't do what you want it to?I've never had this problem before, and the timing of when this issue arose (when I got the new motherboard) indicates that it's a hardware setting.

I guess what I don't understand is what you are doing exactly with PM???

I use it for regular backups, and it normally works quite well.My backup goes as so:I have two hard drives, and two hard drive racks in my PC case, and each hard drive is in a tray to fit in one of the racks. What I do is...1. Insert HDD 2 in Bay 2 (HDD 1 is in Bay 1)2. Delete all partitions on HDD 2 (or only certain ones, depending on whatever other hidden partitions on the HDD that don't need to be copied).3. Copy all partitions from HDD 1 (again, only as I see applicable) to HDD 24. Remove HDD 1 and put it on my bookshelf5. Remove HDD 2 and put in Bay 1Rinse, wash, repeat every two weeks (technically, it's HDD 2 -> HDD 1 then).The reason I like this backup method is because it validates the backup. I know that the backup I just made (to HDD 2) worked because I'm using it. I know that HDD 1 works because I was just using half-an-hour ago.Also, you'll notice that I mentioned something about additional hidden partitions. These are usually backups of an installation of XP so that I can delete my current system partition, copy the hidden backup to the beginning of the drive and set it active. One hidden backup partition I have, for example, is a bare-bones installation of XP -- doing this simple copy process saves me the hour or more it takes to install XP from the disc.These hidden partitions can vary between the drives. I use PartitionMagic (and not Ghost or DriveImage, etc.) so that I can have more control over that aspect of my backups.Interestingly, I just copied my system partition to HDD 2 with HDD DMA switched on and it gave me no compaints Edited March 14, 2006 by epp_b

[Peachy]

You are using the wrong tool for what you want to do. PM is not really designed for doing backups. Its strength is in partitionning: creating, resizing, deleting, copying from one partition to another (but not to store as a backup.) DriveImage or Ghost is what you should really be using for backups.

[b2cm]

You are using the wrong tool for what you want to do. PM is not really designed for doing backups.

I second that. Try DriveImage XML. It's free, portable and works. Ghost is even better, faster but it is $$$.

[Marsden11]

What good is a perfectly working machine if it doesn't do what you want it to?

The machine I'm sitting at right now has been running XP Pro since I installed it 3 years ago. What the heck am I doing wrong???Everything I create on this machine is saved to a share on one of 5 servers. The shares on that server are using Volume Shadow Copy in Clone mode and that entire volume gets backed up every night. That backup is mirrored on 2 other servers.I have an image of that orginal install all ready to go on another share but I've never had to use it. Dang, I really must be screwing up somewhere.I don't mess with swapping HDs, hiding partitions, blowing out XP for whatever reason. I'm so happy my machines don't do anything I want done... How on earth do I get anything done?

[epp_b]

I didn't mean that as an insult, Marsden. I'm just saying, that may work for you, but I need and prefer it a different way.

You are using the wrong tool for what you want to do. PM is not really designed for doing backups.

I disagree. I've never had any such problems with it before. In fact, Symantec is now advertising it as a backup tool.

[epp_b]

Well, here's an interesting bit...I just used BootIt NG (trial) to restore the backup. It also reports errors, but, unlike PQPM, it let's me continue.

[b2cm]

From Symantec's site, describing PM:

Separate your operating system, applications, documents, music, photos, games, and backup files to reduce the risk of data loss if your system crashes.

Copying a primary partition to a logical partition gives you a backup copy of your data. Whether that logical partition can be used to exactly to restore the primary partition is a different thing. This is an instance where a 'copy' is not a 'clone', and one could expect some problems, especially with NTFS/XP.

[epp_b]

Copying a primary partition to a logical partition gives you a backup copy of your data. Whether that logical partition can be used to exactly to restore the primary partition is a different thing. This is an instance where a 'copy' is not a 'clone', and one could expect some problems, especially with NTFS/XP.

I've never had a problem with copying a logical partition back to a primary, then setting it active.Even so, this error will happen even if I try to copy logical to logical.

[b2cm]

I've never had a problem with copying a logical partition back to a primary, then setting it active.

Well, good for you. I've been using PM since version 4 but have never used it like your backup-restore routine. Since you say you are having problems, and it does look like a PM issue, I can only speculate where PM most likely created the problem.Let me just say that every partition has its own boot block that contains two things. One is the media parameter block that specifies the volume (size, location, label, cluster size, etc.). Then, there is the boot code. When PM copies your primary partition to a logical partition, it has to accordingly modify both parameter block and boot code (in logical partitions this is unused). When PM copies your logical partition to the unallocated space where your primary partition used to be, it also modifies both. It is a process that opens possibilities for disk info errors, considering PM performs significant updating of volume information.

Even so, this error will happen even if I try to copy logical to logical.

If the volume is bad, you'd get the error wherever you copy to. That volume is bad, even BootItNG says so. And PM will always abort when it detects errors (including errors it created).

[epp_b]

OK...so, if the case is the PQPM created this problem, would a FIXMBR or FIXBOOT fix these the problem PQPM created?Also be aware that I never had any problems like this using it as a backup solution for Win98.

[Marsden11]

Win98 ain't Win XP. You should never have assumed that they would behave similarly.

[Ed_P]

Your backup senario is clever but unique epp_p as such finding tools to handle it will be tough. None of them are designed to handle what you're doing.My 2ndary drive is bootable, XP bootable, but my backups stored on it are images. If worst comes to worst and I need to use my backup drive I can boot it and restore whatever image or file(s) I need to. This is a reasonable approach and various tools support it. I use Partition Magic, I use Drive Image and I use DriveImage XML.IMO The most important part of a backup senario is not how to do the backup but rather how to do the restore. You seemed to be tuned into that thought process which is good. Many/most people aren't. If you tweak your approach a bit you may be ok.

[epp_b]

Win98 ain't Win XP. You should never have assumed that they would behave similarly.

Well, one can hope. OK, dream. Alright, alright...have a wild fantasy

Your backup senario is clever but unique epp_p as such finding tools to handle it will be tough. None of them are designed to handle what you're doing.

Not quite. Acronis TrueImage has a feature specifically for duplicating a hard drive.I've begun to experiment with BootIT NG images, which seem to work nicely so far.

IMO The most important part of a backup senario is not how to do the backup but rather how to do the restore.

Exactly: the method of backup I use inherently validates itself Edited March 15, 2006 by epp_b

[b2cm]

would a FIXMBR or FIXBOOT fix these the problem PQPM created?

If you can't boot the primary partition you recreated using the logical partition, a fixboot operation is the least you can try so the MBR can call the boot code. The problem, I suspect, is in the media parameter block. The appropriate tool to find and fix the problem is a disk editor.

Also be aware that I never had any problems like this using it as a backup solution for Win98.

They are so different you really shouldn't use either as a point of reference for the other. I've never run into PM4 or 6 errors with Win9x/FAT partitions myself. PM8's support for WinXP/NTFS is probably not as perfect. PM sees errors where other utilities (i.e. Partition Expert, BootItNG or Disk Management) don't, and where partitions boot and work okay. The good news is that you get alerted to these errors. The bad news is that PM will refuse to work with disks/partitions with errors on it (as manipulating partitions in such conditions would most likely result in more severe problems), however I think this is good for the user.

Not quite. Acronis TrueImage has a feature specifically for duplicating a hard drive.

PQ had DriveImage for partition cloning, Symantec has Ghost and Acronis has TrueImage. Like partition utilities (ie Symantec PartitionMagic and Acronis PartitionExpert), they duplicate disks/partitions perfectly. What distinguishes these tools from partition utilities is that they can copy and save to image/s which means your copy is almost perfect wherever you store the image/s. These backups are suitable for restores. Partition utilities, on the other hand, when copying a partition to ANOTHER LOCATION ON THE SAME DISK, does not only copy the data but also perform partition manipulations/transformations (mbr/boot block) to create the new partition and make it work (the magic in PM). Thus, you get a copy (in the sense that the partition contains the same files) but not a clone or duplicate of the partition it was copied from, especially if the original was a primary partition and the copy is a logical partition.

Exactly: the method of backup I use inherently validates itself

Except that you are now having problems. Obviously, PM's magic isn't good enough.

[epp_b]

Um....what???

[Jonie]

I guess what I don't understand is what you are doing exactly with PM??? I have =never= found that my only choice was to resize a partition. I would not do it if I had any option at all, and it's hard to imagine getting into a situation where I'd have no options. Most generally, I'd just make ghost images of the partitions' contents, then wipe the disk, then repartition it as needed, and then reload the images with ghost. Ghost will happily restore NT & dos images to partitions of a different size than they came from [only have to be big enough to hold the contents -- or you can make them arbitrarily bigger]. It even has switches to do bit-for-bit copying if imaging linux parts, though those can't be restored to parts of a size other than what they came from. Ghost will load an image to a raw hard disk -- partitioning and formatting on the fly. Planning ahead is what a pro would do -- and then just execute the plan. The way I see it, if you have to resize a partition, that means you screwed it up in the first place. Better to just bite the bullet and do it over. If you intend to put linux installs on the same disk with NT, then you should probably do the initial partition of the entire disk with a linux tool like cfdisk; this to accomodate the arcane requirements of linux [re where partitions can begin and end] -- NT /dos tools may not get that right.

Hello -- I have a question about PM8 and Ghost. I have an 80G HD that Sony Vaio for some reason partitioned into two -- one 15G (Cdrive) and one 65G(Ddrive). Since I am not entirely geeky I have managed to completely fill the C drive (725M remaining) and have TONS of space on the D drive. To fix this, I want to make my computer into one 80G drive. So, I got PM8 to repartition---EXCEPT that the C drive seeminly doesn't have enough room to do a repartition. I have copied the C&D drives with Ghost and they are residing on my newly purchased Seagate 250G "Data" HD. I have been told that when restoring from Ghost, that original setup will override the newly wiped and reformatted drives , giving me back a 15G Cdrive which what I'm trying to change. From your comments, I may be missing some totally simple step to accomplish this. Any suggestions?

[epp_b]

Hello -- I have a question about PM8 and Ghost. I have an 80G HD that Sony Vaio for some reason partitioned into two -- one 15G (Cdrive) and one 65G(Ddrive). Since I am not entirely geeky I have managed to completely fill the C drive (725M remaining) and have TONS of space on the D drive. To fix this, I want to make my computer into one 80G drive. So, I got PM8 to repartition---EXCEPT that the C drive seeminly doesn't have enough room to do a repartition. I have copied the C&D drives with Ghost and they are residing on my newly purchased Seagate 250G "Data" HD. I have been told that when restoring from Ghost, that original setup will override the newly wiped and reformatted drives , giving me back a 15G Cdrive which what I'm trying to change. From your comments, I may be missing some totally simple step to accomplish this. Any suggestions?

PM8 (among other programs) is able to resize partitions from the beginning of the partitions. Of course, backup both partitions before doing this... - Resize D: from the beginning to whatever size you need - Resize C: to fill in the now-unallocated space

[Jonie]

PM8 (among other programs) is able to resize partitions from the beginning of the partitions. Of course, backup both partitions before doing this... - Resize D: from the beginning to whatever size you need - Resize C: to fill in the now-unallocated space

I have both partitions backed up with Ghost. PM8 id not allowing any resize of the C drive -- and the tips say this is because the disk is too full. If I wipe the 80G drive clean and restore the backup from Ghost, will it simply recreate the two partitions I've now joined together as one by restoring the exact sectors?

[Specmon]

I suggest that you restore your 15gb C drive and leave the 65gb D drive alone.Sony did you a favor by adding an extra step to their setup.A two partition hard drive allows you to have your operating system and perhaps all your installed programs on the C drive, and EVERYTHING else on the D drive. If you have several big games that take up multiple gigabytes, install them from the D drive too. (D:\Program Files\)All your music, videos, whatever else you download and want to keep, and most importantly, an IMAGE file of the C drive that allows you to restore your operating system to perfect in just a few minutes when the operating system inevitably becomes corrupt or otherwise unusable. Since all your precious DATA FILES are on the D partition, when the operating system goes south, you don't lose anything.Having the second D drive allows you a place to back up anything important to you from the C drive, plus that all important IMAGE.You will find discussions here as to what is the best partitioning and imaging software. (I am partial to Bootit NG) But the important thing is that you find one you like and use it. But having two partitions on a hard drive is a distinct advantage. Don't give it up.

[Jonie]

I suggest that you restore your 15gb C drive and leave the 65gb D drive alone.Sony did you a favor by adding an extra step to their setup.A two partition hard drive allows you to have your operating system and perhaps all your installed programs on the C drive, and EVERYTHING else on the D drive. If you have several big games that take up multiple gigabytes, install them from the D drive too. (D:\Program Files\)All your music, videos, whatever else you download and want to keep, and most importantly, an IMAGE file of the C drive that allows you to restore your operating system to perfect in just a few minutes when the operating system inevitably becomes corrupt or otherwise unusable. Since all your precious DATA FILES are on the D partition, when the operating system goes south, you don't lose anything.Having the second D drive allows you a place to back up anything important to you from the C drive, plus that all important IMAGE.You will find discussions here as to what is the best partitioning and imaging software. (I am partial to Bootit NG) But the important thing is that you find one you like and use it. But having two partitions on a hard drive is a distinct advantage. Don't give it up.

It is a double-edged sword. Without the depth of knowledge I *now* have (such as it is) it seems everything wanted to go to the C drive. And, alas, I let it be so. Having two drives gives all the advantages you site, but if you let that C drive expand to the limit, it can no longer be defragged and it doesn't allow PM8 to make it bigger. I would be thrilled to have enough space to begin manipulating the contents and start putting all my data on another drive -- at this point I need more space on the C drive to accomplish this task. I am not a gamer and have very little music and no videos, although I do have several graphic programs for newlettering. My thought was to have that 80 gig drive as one and use my nifty new 250G drive as the data drive.