Newbie Questions about Linux

[BillD]

I am giving serious consideration to giving Linux a try based on the fact that Windows 98SE is about to enter non support the middle of next year, and having tried XP, it is so bloated and slow compared with 98SE (Pentium III 933) that I just can't put up with MS like that, and I presume that Longhorn/Vista will be even worse.So please don't take offense at the questions; if they have been asked before, just point me to the right thread . . .1. What about motherboard chipset drivers? Can one install them off the CD that comes with the mobo, or will they work in Ext3 or Reiser FS?2. What is typical size of OS? I realize that depends on how much stuff you have on there, but I have Win98SE with photoshop, Firefox, Tbird, Nero, and a bunch of other stuff and it only takes up about 1700 MB. The same thing took up over 3000 MB in patched (SP1) XP Pro. (These figures do not include swap file)3. What about size creep with usage? Does Linux keep getting larger for inexplicable reasons like Windows does? I clean Windows up with batch files, etc., etc., and *still* it keeps growing with use.4. I will need to set up dual boot scheme to keep Windows for Photoshop and other photo apps including photo printer software, and I do backups with Drive Image. Now DI and Partition Magic cannot really see Ext3 and Reiser FS partitions, so how do you do backups of the Linux and C partitions and how in particular do you back up the C partition so that the dual boot MBR does not get messed up when you do a restoration? I know Langa likes BootIT NG, but having tried it, it seems rather crude and hard to use. What do you guys use for OS partition backups?5. What about external USB HDD's and jump drives; is there any problem? I mean do Linux distros generally recognize them without any additional drivers?6. How do you update Linux when vulerabilities are found? I realize that the kernel keeps getting updated, but does that require buying the next edition of a distro and doing a complete reinstall of the whole thing - too expensive - (as one does with each new edition of Firefox or Thunderbird), or is there some way to patch things, and if so how?7. What about defragging? I understand that Ext3 and Reiser FS file systems use something called "journeling" (sp?), but does that totally prevent fragmentation?8. What about Internet reconnect? I am using DSL that requires reconnection and has a dynamic ISP address so I cannot enter a number into anything during setup as far as I know. In Win98SE, I use a simple batch file made from a couple of commands that could also be typed into the "run" box to disconnect and connect, but how is this done in Linux?9. Is there any decent FTP client available. I have tried Filezilla in Windows as an experiment, and it is downright difficult to use compared with Cute and similar Windows products.10. And what about Firewalls? Are they available? I know I read in a recent PCWorld article where the guy was trying out Xandros, that it comes with a Firewall (and a high price) but are they common with distros or are there open source ones out there?Sorry to be so lengthy, but as you see, I have a bunch of questions that don't seem to ever be addressed in the articles I have read . . .BillD

[Bruno]

Hi BillWelcome to the forum !!!Let me try to answer some questions:1). All drivers ( if your mobo is supported, and that is verifyable ) will be included in the distro . . . the ones on the CD that came with your mobo are useless.2). For an average distro you will need about 3 GB too . . . but it will run faster then XP on a P3 . . . there are distros that need far less and are optimised for old or very old hardware then 1 - 2 GB will do.3). It will not grow in size as long as you have it correctly configured4). Sure dual-boot is a good idea . . most of us do dual-boot. There are Linux native backup programs and Linux native partition tools ( all included in the distro you choose )5) Modern distros do . . . but booting from an external drive can still be a hassle with a few distros ( some distros are better in that domain )6). Most distros have "update utilities" . . . pressing a button will do the trick.7). No more defragging . . . no more disk-scan . . No virus, no spyware :P8). DSL mostly is no problem as long as it is no USB modem . . any ethernet modem should do . . a router is a big plus.9). Any amount of FTP clients . . . any amount of other software is included in your distro or available in the "package manager" . . . install with a click or a "simple" command ( as long as the packages are packed by the distro you run ) . . . ( and all additional software is free )10). Firewalls . . . all you need will be included in the distro . . . Modern distros come in 3 to 5 CDs . . . . that is not only the OS but also all the additional software you might or might not need.Linux does not install a bare OS like the one from Redmond . . . but installs a complete system with image manipulation, office software, 3 or 4 browsers, 2 or 3 email-clients to choose from . . and the list goes on . . . you get the idea I think.11). . . . . . Oooops . . sorry there was no 11 :PWelcome again to the forum . . . . . and to Linux ! Bruno

[Rons]

Welcome Bill.

[BillD]

OK, thank you for the input Bruno, and the welcome, Rons.Thanks for all the good info. Now the question is *what* distro?I know Bruno has a sticky thread about distros (I read thru it), but the fact is, what do you guys prefer in terms of ease of use and overall utility? What about mgf. support?Most of the manufacturers that I have looked at seem a bit vague (to totally vague) about hardware support, but it appears that my Audigy sound card requires Alsa . . . I assume someone here could help me get it going with that? I hate to have to go back to my old SB Live (which is apparently generally supported).Thanks,Bill

[burninbush]

"4. I will need to set up dual boot scheme to keep Windows for Photoshop and other photo apps including photo printer software, and I do backups with Drive Image. Now DI and Partition Magic cannot really see Ext3 and Reiser FS partitions, so how do you do backups of the Linux and C partitions and how in particular do you back up the C partition so that the dual boot MBR does not get messed up when you do a restoration? I know Langa likes BootIT NG, but having tried it, it seems rather crude and hard to use. What do you guys use for OS partition backups?"++++++++++++I'll take a shot at some of these ... I'm a fairly recent linux user, so your concerns are what mine useta be, mostly. Re backups and images, linux has 'tar' -- think that originally stood for tape archiving. Tar puts collections of files into one big file, optionally then compressing it, much the same as WinZip. It will do a fine and easy job of making image copies of your linux partition(s). Might work for windows parts also, but haven't tried that since I use Ghost here. But just be assured that the central element of Ghost is available just using tar. You might also find linux's 'partimage' util useful; I have used that here recently to backup and restore a win2k partition -- with completely nominal results.Re fragmentation -- linux filesystems perform defrag more or less constantly as a background process. It's a non-issue. Even if you force it [image create /restore] the OS will then immediately start rearranging things. Given you are keeping your w98 install, then dual booting will be a snap using loadlin.exe -- the dos-mode util that is made to boot linux distros. I settled on it after finding major irritations with lilo and grub, the common linux booter utils. I have not yet found a linux that can't be booted with loadlin. So ... my advice is to use TweakUI to set your w98 install to boot to command-line as default, from which you can easily run a bat file to start your choice of linux distros, on either the same or a different disk -- or just run win.bat to start 98. If you decide then tomorrow to try a different distro, it will require nothing more than a quick text edit to tell loadlin how to find the new distro. [or, it would be simple to make this a 'choice' item in config.sys] And *don't* let any of these write to your "MBR" master boot record -- either skip that, or tell the distro install routine to write to the partition boot record. I have found here that a 6gb - 8gb partition is plenty for any common distro and lots of apps programs. You'll also need a second small linux partition, of type 'swap' -- figure on maybe 500mb - 1gb for that. You already have a fat32 part [your w9x] that any linux distro can read/write-to for data exchange with w98. I strongly urge you to try one of the modern live-cd linux distros before finalizing any install plans. PCLinuxOS, Mepis, Kanotix, and Knoppix are my favorites, all are highly regarded and will give you a good taste [if somewhat slow] view of what you could have with a harddisk install. If you like what you see with them, each will quickly install -- with all apps -- in less than 30 minutes. Don't like the result? Try another, reusing the same partitions, in less than 30 minutes. You'll only need to do the low-level prep once. All 4 mentioned here will install into 3.5gb, including all the apps you see in the K menu. Ahh... you asked about cost; that's the best part -- it's all free, just for the trouble of downloading. Or you can buy pre-burned cds really cheaply, maybe $2 each. Check the sellers on www.distrowatch.com for that, or just do some googling. I got my first set of Suse [5 cds] for $7 shipped from some guy on ebay.

[Bruno]

Hi BillYour choice of distro depends a bit on how much space you have to give to the Linux partition . . . . The Hardware support: there are hardware databases, see here: http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.ph...14&t=503&st=219For the mgf. support . . . . what is "mgf."??? Bruno

[Bruno]

Given you are keeping your w98 install, then dual booting will be a snap using loadlin.exe -- the dos-mode util that is made to boot linux distros.  I settled on it after finding major irritations with lilo and grub, the common linux booter utils.  I have not yet found a linux that can't be booted with loadlin.  So ... my advice is to use TweakUI to set your w98 install to boot to command-line as default, from which you can easily run a bat file to start your choice of linux distros, on either the same or a different disk -- or just run win.bat to start 98.  If you decide then tomorrow to try a different distro, it will require nothing more than a quick text edit to tell loadlin how to find the new distro.   [or, it would be simple to make this a 'choice' item in config.sys]   And *don't* let any of these write to your "MBR" master boot record -- either skip that, or tell the distro install routine to write to the partition boot record. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I strongly disagree on this part . . . I think this is absolutely bad advice !!!!!I do agree on the part of using a "Live"-distro like PCLos to test the waters and see if your hardware is supported. Bruno

[BillD]

I strongly disagree on this part  . . . I think this is absolutely bad advice !!!!!I do agree on the part of using a "Live"-distro like PCLos to test the waters and see if your hardware is supported. Bruno

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, so what sort of mbr scheme do you use, Bruno? How do you back up your system? Ghost, in my experience (and it is an old version of Ghost) was not much better than XCOPY . . . and I am not sure what something like that would do with the mbr of the C partition when one restored it if it was dual boot . . .Mgf was supposed to be mfg = manufacturer = company putting out distro: sorry about that :-( One thing that bothers me about manufacturer support for updates: How long do they provide support? I seem to recall when I looked at SuSE one time that they said they support it until the next version came out or something like that. The hated Microsoft would put that to shame! And what companies really do provide support? And incidentally, when I asked what you people were using, I was not asking particularly for recommendations; that is always dangerous ground; I was just asking what you are using and why you prefer it, but I am getting a horrible suspicion that perhaps some of you are using different distros at the same time/times? (Which would suggest that you are not really satisfied with any of them in all respects? Also, I need a distro that has good printed book type instructions that I can refer to.Downloading anything and burning a CD is fine if you know what you are doing, but I don't . . . I need more written info to start with.I'll check out the hardware link, and thank you.Bill

[ross549]

Hey Bill......Based on what you are saying... PCLos may be perfect for you.You can try it out running off the CD before you install.Once it is installed, you can update endlessly. Occasionally, you may have to install a newer "kernel" to keep everything working correctly, but that should be the most you should have to do.I run PCLos on all my machines.... simply works, and the packages available are second to none. ;)EDIT for got the links:Project homepage: http://www.pclinuxonline.com/pclosReally great WIKI/New users guide: http://www.pclinuxonline.com/wikiWelcome to the forum, by the way!Adam

Edited September 12, 2005 by ross549

[Bruno]

Hi BillI would just use the linux bootloader ( Lilo ) it will automatically include your Windows OS without asking any intervention from your part. Simple and effective.Most of the time the mfg support will go 3 to 4 versions back ( and not only one as they wrongly said about SUSE ) . . . in any case you will want a new version as it is released so the issue actually never plays.Sure I boot several distros, but most of them just because I want to learn and be able to give answers to questions here on the forum.My personal favorite is Mandrake ( new name is Mandriva ) . . . BUT, the suggestion Adam makes here above about PCLos is a real good one and I think it is the way to go for you. ( the mfg support is endless from PCLos ) . . . You can first run it from CD . . and when you like it install it to HD and run it from HD, so no risks involved :DPrinted book like instructions are rare . . . there is a whole lot on the internet though, and PCLos has its own wiki with a lot of tips and its own forum ( but sure we can also help you here ) . . . . .. Next to that you might want to check http://www.brunolinux.com :PB) BrunoDownload PCLos: http://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/tex...linuxos-p91.iso( ask instructions before you burn it to CD )

[burninbush]

I strongly disagree on this part  . . . I think this is absolutely bad advice !!!!! Bruno

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

??? So, explain yourself. If we all knew what you think you know about it, then perhaps I and everybody else would agree. I absolutely stand by what I wrote about being able to boot any linux with it -- I can recount about 30 or so. He already has the boot w9x partition, which he's going to keep. It's a situation tailor-made for loadlin. OTOH, if he installs some linux and then finds he can't boot into either linux OR win98, not an unusual situation as any read of this forum will reveal, then that's one user that will probably never try another linux. Maybe that's a desirable outcome, but I doubt it. Just look at the number of posts in this forum about booting difficulties, 100% of which relate to grub or lilo. Kiss all of that dreck goodbye if you use loadlin.

[greengeek]

I never had any problems with Lilo even way back when I was a new user! :)I use Xandros for my main machine so I can run some Windows aps from it (Photoshop, card games etc.). SuSE is on the rest of the machines except for the Macs.If you're not using Photoshop for any mission critical work related stuff then you might want to invest some time and learn the GIMP.

[Bruno]

???  So, explain yourself. 

Well, 99% of the people on the forum either uses Lilo or Grub ( bootloaders included with their distro ) 0.99% uses a third party ( Linux ) bootloader . . . . . seems you're the only one that thinks that a Windows solution to multibooting Linux distros is better.Nobody has ever posted any problem when they just want to boot Linux and Windows . . . . . only 2% needs help when adding more then one additional distro to the Lilo/Grub their first distro automatically set up for them. Bruno

[ross549]

???  So, explain yourself.  If we all knew what you think you know about it, then perhaps I and everybody else would agree. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have personally never had a problem with LILO, and if something gets completely screwed up, I can use a rescue CD to boot the machine and fix the problem.Most of the users that Bruno coaches are ones that are multibooting several distros, and are seeking help in setting up LILO to handle those multiple distros.

[BillD]

Well, I *am* using Photoshop for critical work; however, I could always reboot into Windows for that sort of thing. I have a number of other photo related programs there also that I use, so I definitely want to keep it, but I don't know why I would need to access it from Linux particularly. Also I need the full function of the printer I use primarily for photo printing which would not be available in Linux anyway, I don't suppose.Incidently, I checked the hardware list, and those darn Audigy cards apparently need Alsa?Greengeek, why do you prefer SuSE over Xandros for most applications?And Bruno, why do you lean toward Mandrake/Mandriva? Also, Bruno, you said one would want to get an updated program by the time support expired on the old one anyway. Why? I realize there might be more peripheral functionality as the versions update, but is that necessary to patch new vulnerabilities? How *does* onr patch newly found vulnerabilities? As I said earlier in the thread, I would hate to have to replace everything periodically like I do the entire Firefox and TBird (except for the profiles) each time a new version comes out to fix vulnerabilities. I have been doing that since Firefox 0.6.2 and before that Mozilla 1.0.1 and that seems like a poor way to have to patch things! Years ago I got tired of replacing the entire OS and all apps when things got messed up (e.g., I screwed up in many cases), which is why I started using Drive Image with Windows! But that is what led to my question about the MBR, because when I installed a dual boot Win98SE/XP setup, DI messed up the boot.ini file in XP when I restored C Win98SE and I had to manually fix that, although oddly since I did it the first time, it has stayed fixed . . . Since I know nothing about the relative advantages or disadvantages of the various distros, their support policies, etc., I am most interested in your opinions and experiences.Thank you.Bill

[epp_b]

Woah! Bruno's the first one to respond and there's no blurb about "No noobs, just beginners"

[ebrke]

I have used and liked SuSE since I first loaded a linux distro. Upgrading for security patches, etc., is handled by software called YaST and is a simple, graphical process where you can't go wrong. Usually, it takes less than 5 minutes every couple of weeks. This said, however, SuSE is going through some changes (google Open SuSE if curious) and I'm hoping that this admirable distro will stay as solid and easily-maintained in the future. I'm one of the few people here who uses a third-party boot loader, but I use it only to invoke grub, which is SuSE's preferred boot loader, not instead of grub. SuSE's grub did correctly set up a dual boot situation with win2k. I use my boot loader because it also does partition imaging and is operating-system independent, imaging both linux and windows partitions for backup purposes, so that's a whole other story. I think most people try distros until they find one they like. I was lucky with SuSE, it clicked with me and my hardware first shot and I stayed with it. A SuSE install will take about 30-45 minutes depending on the speed of your system. Your first software update through YaST will probably take nearly as long because there will be a lot of packages, but that will only be the first time. I don't think you're going to find much support for any distro except at forums like this one or in books. If you paid for SuSE, they used to offer support to help you achieve a successful install, but that may have stopped now. You could check Novell's website on support policies.

Edited September 13, 2005 by ebrke

[burninbush]

Nobody has ever posted any problem when they just want to boot Linux and Windows . . . . Bruno

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOLOL! You need to spend some more time reading this forum. There was a long post yesterday by one of the forum leaders about booting problems with her own machine! I gotta hunch that if you were to survey the totality of posts put up here, lilo/grub issues would be high on the list. You said that using loadlin was "absolutely bad advice" -- buy why? Just because few users have tried it? Hellooooo... To be very very clear, loadlin.exe is not a Windows executable, it is a dos executable. It is not run from windows, and cannot be. Had you ever used it you would know that. Loadlin.exe comes with Suse, Slack, and Fedora, perhaps others. Maybe you should address a complaint to them. Or, maybe you should just try it for yourself, then you'd be in a position to actually advise people about it from a position of knowledge. It would be easy to test it using a bootable cdr -- ask if you want to know how. As I wrote earlier, the user at the root of this thread already has a fat32 boot partition that he intends to keep. That basically settles the argument; using loadlin to boot into his choice of linux is completely risk-free, something that nobody can ever claim about the use of lilo or grub.

[Bruno]

And Bruno, why do you lean toward Mandrake/Mandriva?  Also, Bruno, you said one would want to get an updated program by the time support expired on the old one anyway.  Why?  I realize there might be more peripheral functionality as the versions update, but is that necessary to patch new vulnerabilities?  How *does* onr patch newly found vulnerabilities?  As I said earlier in the thread, I would hate to have to replace everything periodically like I do the entire Firefox and TBird (except for the profiles) each time a new version comes out to fix vulnerabilities.  I have been doing that since Firefox 0.6.2 and before that Mozilla 1.0.1 and that seems like a poor way to have to patch things!  Years ago I got tired of replacing the entire OS and all apps when things got messed up (e.g., I screwed up in many cases), which is why I started using Drive Image with Windows!  But that is what led to my question about the MBR, because when I installed a dual boot Win98SE/XP setup, DI messed up the boot.ini file in XP when I restored C Win98SE and I had to manually fix that, although oddly since I did it the first time, it has stayed fixed . . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi BillMy preference for Mandrake has a history, way back then there were no "Live-CDs" to test distros, and since we all still were on dial-up ordering a bundled pack from Mandrake with 8 CDs full of software seemed the ticked. Also Mandrake was know as a novice friendly distro and since even I was a novice once it seemed like a good choice. . . Since that time Mandrake never disappointed me . . .But still my advice to you is: Try PCLos in the Live version first !!From most distros there is a new version each year, but because I install my /home on a separate partition upgrading to that new version is no big issue . . . all I upgrade is the "root" partition ( / ) and the /home partition with all my personal settings, mail, docs etc. etc. does remain untouched.The Firefox update saga is not comparable. ( But if you let your distro handle the Firefox updates there is no pain at all and you will see that it's a breeze copared to Windows )Your question about the MBR and the Win partition on C: . . . the MBR ( first 512 bytes of your HD ) is there were no partitions are started yet, so even if you format C: the MBR does stay untouched. ( have a look at the first section here: http://www.linuxsa.org.au/mailing-list/2001-08/756.html ) Then a short word about alsa: . . alsa will be automatically installed . . . . . and your card will be detected and set up in the two minutes it takes to boot the CD of PCLos BrunoPS: . . . Yep, on the request of epp_b . . . here is my favorite quote:

We try to avoid the word ¨newbie¨,  it does no justice to the efforts we, also the beginners, put in to learn a new operating system. I think the wish to learn Linux shows a brave attitude and deserves a better qualification.  --Bruno

So if you want me to change the title of this thread, just tell me and I will

[burninbush]

"...which is why I started using Drive Image with Windows! But that is what led to my question about the MBR, because when I installed a dual boot Win98SE/XP setup, DI messed up the boot.ini file in XP when I restored C Win98SE and I had to manually fix that, although oddly since I did it the first time, it has stayed fixed . . ."+++++++++++++I use Ghost here, have ever since I discovered their corp. rev 6.0 back when. Ghost makes a distinction re the MBR; when you are restoring into an existing first partition, it leaves the MBR alone, but if you are restoring to a raw drive, then you get the questions about what partition size you want, and it will [of necessity] write a valid MBR. Guessing that any useful image restore app would behave the same. Sounds like your DI re-wrote the original win98 MBR, which would of course have trashed its link to boot.ini. Whatever decision you make about which linux to install or how to boot it, you should absolutely first use one of the live cds -- or some other util -- to take a copy of your disks' MBR sectors, and store them on a diskette, along with the util to replace them if needed. Think there are how-tos on this board that discuss the simple steps to do this; if not, just ask. There are MAJOR differences in how linux and your bios view your disk geometry -- run an fdisk -l command [from a linux live bootup] to see what linux thinks your disk has for cylinders, heads, and sectors. Be advised ... maybe someone here can explain that "LBA" statement in grub and lilo.

[BillD]

Whatever decision you make about which linux to install or how to boot it, you should absolutely first use one of the live cds -- or some other util -- to take a copy of your disks' MBR sectors, and store them on a diskette, along with the util to replace them if needed.  Think there are how-tos on this board that discuss the simple steps to do this; if not, just ask.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you point me to the how-to to do this? Or tell me how? In my limited experience, all I know how to do is fdisk /mbr to restore the Win98SE boot up when things get trashed. I got into XP because there was still a half - baked deal in the mbr to get there from, and I hastily fixed things in XP then :-(Probably my old Ghost (circa 2000) would indeed be safer; however it *does not* ask me anything about the mbr whether I use it on a raw drive or to overwrite an existing partition that I can remember; however, if your old one did that, maybe I just don't remember; it has been a long time since I tried to use it. I never liked it much since it was more difficult to use and I did not know much about DOS in those days (and therefore was afraid of it), so I soon went with DI, which was then properly supported because it was put out by Power Quest - which unfortunately Symantec bought out and is now trashing (IMHO). Back in the Power Quest days, they had *printed* manuals that came with their stuff. Wow! Not since Symantec bought them out.You know, Bruno, it appears to me that Mandriva is nearly dead. Is that right? Can't seem to find much from an Internet search other than some statement about a 3 CD download that will probably be the last.Bill Edited September 13, 2005 by BillD

[Bruno]

You know, Bruno, it appears to me that Mandriva is nearly dead.  Is that right? 

LOL . . . Oh no it is not . . . but it just changed name from Mandrake to Mandriva . . . . do a google on Mandrake and that will have more hits then you can read in a year :DAlso look at the "Page Hit Ranking" here: http://distrowatch.com/index.phpTo backup the MBR to a floppy, boot a "Live CD"like PCLos and in a trerminal ( like a dos window ) type:

$ su<type password># dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 count=1

Also read: http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.ph...14&t=503&st=254 BrunoPS: Like said before, please experiment with a Live CD first . . . it makes no changes to your HD and you can see and learn about Linux before you really start to install it to HD. A Live CD is fully functional, you can do everything that you can do with a HD installed version too.

Edited September 13, 2005 by Bruno

[BillD]

LOL . . . Oh no it is not . . . but it just changed name from Mandrake to Mandriva . . . . do a google on Mandrake and that will have more hits then you can read in a year :DAlso look at the "Page Hit Ranking" here: http://distrowatch.com/index.phpTo backup the MBR to a floppy, boot a "Live CD"like PCLos and in a trerminal ( like a dos window ) type:

$ su<type password># dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/fd0 bs=512 count=1

Also read: http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.ph...14&t=503&st=254 Bruno

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I used both Google and Alta Vista advanced and I see much mention of it, but what happened to the company? I mean, it appears that all is left is downloadable CD's? Mandrake (when I last looked at their site) seemed to be like SuSE and the rest of these outfits that supposedly offered support, etc. Altho just how helpful any of them would be when it came down to really doing it, I don't know, of course.On the floppy boot (or CD), I assume you are going to use a "live install" to do this from the floppy? Then you would have to do the whole "installation" right? Just to fix the mbr? Hmmm. Looks to me like one really needs to be careful how one backs up and restores the C partition! I appreciate the thread link however, and I have printed it out for future reference.Bill Bill

[Bruno]

Hi BillI was not talking about a "live install" . . . but "running the distro live" . . . so no install at all the first week or so, just to see what PCLos is about ( or Mandrake . . just what you want )Then you need not worry about MBR or backing up C: . . . just because nothing, really nothing is written to HD . . . . all takes place from RAM and from the CD.Just give it a spin and you will understand much better what we are talking about . . . . . and we can answer questions is a much more focused way once you see what it is all about.Just download "PCLos" or "Mandrake Move" ( will post links for you in a minute ) and boot from the CD and your eyes will open up :DB) Bruno

[Bruno]

Here is pclos: http://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/tex...linuxos-p91.isoHere is Mandrake Move:ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/Man...x-Move.i586.isoBut I tell you: PCLos is far superior as Live CD ( for a HD install Mandrake is . . but the "Move" version is only "Live" ) Bruno

[burninbush]

"...Can you point me to the how-to to do this? Or tell me how? In my limited experience.."++++++++++++Sure, it's just a couple commands. Begin by booting with your live linux cd, logon as root, and open a command window [that crt icon in the taskbar, or find it in the K menu]. # dd if=/dev/hda of=hda.mbr bs=512 count=1 <enter> That takes a copy [one unit of 512 bytes] of the first sector of your primary master ide disk. This is the "MBR" -- which points to whatever you use to boot, and in the last 66 bytes contains the master partition records for your disk. The first part of the MBR is the actual boot code, but that's fairly easy to fix. It's the partition tables that can't be easily duplicated. Putting it back is just the reverse of inputfile and outputfile ... #dd if=hda.mbr of=/dev/hda bs=512 count=1 <enter>Of course, if the MBR gets completely trashed, then the next time you try to boot the machine, you'll find that it has NO valid partitions -- which could ruin your whole day if you had important stuff on the disk. So, you must copy the hda.mbr file off to diskette or other media -- it's useless to leave it on the same hard disk, cuz you won't be able to find it after the partition tables have been overwritten. # cd /mnt# mkdir floppy (probably already exists)# mount /dev/fd0 floppy# cp /root/hda.mbr /mnt/floppy/ # ls /dev/fd0hda.mbr (check to see that the copy succeeded) # umount /dev/fd0 Do that for each of your hard disks and you'll have a way to get back home when some linux install -- or other errant software -- does something undesired with your MBR. This file will be valid until you repartition the disk -- after which you should do the procedure over. For all of those posts asking "how do I remove lilo or grub from my MBR" -- this is the solution. Of course, you have to take the copy before allowing linux to write to the MBR. Note that I have just offered a suggestive name for the saved copy file -- use whatever you like, dd won't care. Substitute hdb / hdc / hdd / sda as necessary to ID your machine's hard disks. If you're booting with one of those live cds that won't allow you to logon as root, then just put a 'sudo ' in front of each of those commands above. I like Mepis here -- with it, you can be the boss as you like. It would be a good choice for a first linux distro to install, too.

[Dard]

Well I used both Google and Alta Vista advanced and I see much mention of it, but what happened to the company?  I mean, it appears that all is left is downloadable CD's?Bill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Monday, April 11, 2005 03:44:57 PMCiting desires for both a "new identity" and an end to possible legal liability, Mandrakesoft changed its name to "Mandriva" last week, not long after announcing a merger with Conectiva and many details of a future product roadmap.In a written statement unveiling the "Mandriva" name on April 7, Mandrakesoft pointed to two reasons for the name change: a name that better reflects the combined identity of Mandrakesoft and Conectiva, and a decision to eliminate any liability stemming from a long-standing lawsuit with Hearst Corporation over the Mandrake trademark.In 2003, a French court ruled that Mandrakesoft's use of the names Mandrake and Linux-Mandrake--as well as associated Internet domain names--infringed on Hearst's trademark rights around the "Mandrake le Magicien" ("Mandrake the Magician") comic book character.You can read the rest here...http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/5811/1/

[Bruno]

Hi BillFYI: Mandrake has been number one on the top 100 at Distrowatch for that last 5 to 6 years, only recently it dropped to second place because of a seriously hyped new distro called "Ubuntu". But since the numbers for Ubuntun are falling again I guess it will not take long before Mandrake ( Mandriva ) will be on the number 1 position again.If you want to buy boxed sets you can have a look here: http://www.mandrivastore.comThe homepage: http://www.mandrivalinux.com/en/The Mandriva club: http://www.mandrivaclub.com/Downloads most recent version: ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/os/Linux/distr/Man.../iso/10.2/i586/Hope this clears up things a bit ;) Bruno

[linuxdude32]

I do so love a set of well-formulated questions! I'm going to play "pretend" for a moment and be a Linux expert and try to answer them. You'll see that I agree with many on here. And I'll throw in some personal advice to boot because I'm smarter than everybody else (remember I'm playing 'pretend'). Here goes!

I am giving serious consideration to giving Linux a try based on the fact that Windows 98SE is about to enter non support the middle of next year, and having tried XP, it is so bloated and slow compared with 98SE (Pentium III 933) that I just can't put up with MS like that, and I presume that Longhorn/Vista will be even worse.

Have to comment on that. I do LOVE Linux dearly but have found XP to operate at similar or equal performance of Windows 98 SE personally. I know others have certainly found a radical difference but why? I have no idea. I've heard people telling me that XP takes so long to boot and yet on my machine it boots in about 35 seconds (to a login prompt, after that it depends how many startup programs you have). That being said, Linux in general has much better memory management than Windows IMNSHO (In my not so humble opinion). Btw, we never take offense at the questions - it's usually the answers we get into a big bruhaw about.

1.  What about motherboard chipset drivers?  Can one install them off the CD that comes with the mobo, or will they work in Ext3 or Reiser FS?

Motherboard CDs are only helpful for Windows and so are useless here as already said. As long as your motherboard/hardware is supported under the distro you use, you won't need to download anything else. There are exceptions like with wireless.

2.  What is typical size of OS?  I realize that depends on how much stuff you have on there, but I have Win98SE with photoshop, Firefox, Tbird, Nero, and a bunch of other stuff and it only takes up about 1700 MB.  The same thing took up over 3000 MB in patched (SP1) XP Pro. (These figures do not include swap file)

A typical default desktop distribution weighs in at about 2.3 to 2.5 GB. As Bruno mentioned, that includes stuff you don't get with Windows like full burning software, office suite, image editing, web browsers, digital camera management software, scanning software, PDA software, ripping software, etc. If you installed everything included with a distro nobody would ever see you again and you'd probably end up with 6 GB of software which includes webserver and other server software and multiple development environments and source code for most of it. Linux is the OS with the mostest.

3.  What about size creep with usage?  Does Linux keep getting larger for inexplicable reasons like Windows does?  I clean Windows up with batch files, etc., etc., and *still* it keeps growing with use.

I haven't watched this longterm enough to really give you a good answer. But I can say that I respectfully disagree with Bruno. Every OS is going to grow over time because you'll have to keep downloading patches and new versions of software. Though the latter is optional, many Linux users want the latest. I'm afraid no OS is immune to feature-itis.

4.  I will need to set up dual boot scheme to keep Windows for Photoshop and other photo apps including photo printer software, and I do backups with Drive Image.  Now DI and Partition Magic cannot really see Ext3 and Reiser FS partitions, so how do you do backups of the Linux and C partitions and how in particular do you back up the C partition so that the dual boot MBR does not get messed up when you do a restoration?  I know Langa likes BootIT NG, but having tried it, it seems rather crude and hard to use.  What do you guys use for OS partition backups?

When I do it full image backups of Linux, I use partimage. But on a regular basis, I just use k3b, a CD burning program, to backup my home directory files. Linux keeps configuration changes to desktop programs as well as your data in /home which is a good idea to keep on a separate partition. I have heard that Drive Image and Ghost can backup Linux partitions but usually on a sector-by-sector basis only.

5.  What about external USB HDD's and jump drives; is there any problem?  I mean do Linux distros generally recognize them without any additional drivers?

As long as you're not trying to boot from them, you shouldn't have a problem. If you are, there may be extra work involved but that work usually involves setting up your BIOS to do it. Not really a Linux issue per se. Some Linux distros are designed to boot from Jump Drives like Puppy Linux or Flash Linux.Update: Split over two post since I found out the forum software doesn't like so many quotes in one post. Edited September 13, 2005 by linuxdude32

[linuxdude32]

(PART 2...)

6.  How do you update Linux when vulerabilities are found?  I realize that the kernel keeps getting updated, but does that require buying the next edition of a distro and doing a complete reinstall of the whole thing - too expensive - (as one does with each new edition of Firefox or Thunderbird), or is there some way to patch things, and if so how?

Most Linux distributions can be downloaded for free, though the download version may be different than the retail version usually because of copyright issues having to do with including certain commercial software (even free commercial software). Some people like to do this whenever a new version is released but even then the user still has to download patches that address security concerns for bug fixes, especially if you're on broadband Internet.How this is done depends on the distro. SUSE, PC LOS, Mandriva (Mandriva charges then) and Fedora all have little update icons that appear to let you know of updates and then you can click on those to download. Or you can just run the update program every so often (Mandiva doesn't charge for running this program).

7.  What about defragging?  I understand that Ext3 and Reiser FS file systems use something called "journeling" (sp?), but does that totally prevent fragmentation?

Every Linux guy I know says that you don't have to defrag with Linux handles handles files better. Others of us, who don't quite believe in magic, think that fragmentation could still be an issue no matter what file system type you use. That being said, distribution makers don't consider this enough of an issue to include a defragmentation program so that probably says a lot right there. Also, Linux distros prompt you to create a separate partition which is used exclusively for swap and this is where fragmentation would most effect any OS. This swap is kept contiguous. Also, fragmentation becomes an issue on nearly full drives. If you keep your drives at only 2/3 full, you probably won't have fragmentation on any OS.

8.  What about Internet reconnect?  I am using DSL that requires reconnection and has a dynamic ISP address so I cannot enter a number into anything during setup as far as I know.  In Win98SE, I use a simple batch file made from a couple of commands that could also be typed into the "run" box to disconnect and connect, but how is this done in Linux?

As already said, DSL is supported under most Linux distributions as long as it's of the kind that involves an ethernet interface. If so, you can use 'ifdown eth0' to pull down the interface. If it's security you're concerned about, make sure you use a firewall between you and the modem instead.

9.  Is there any decent FTP client available.  I have tried Filezilla in Windows as an experiment, and it is downright difficult to use compared with Cute and similar Windows products.

Yes, lots! Your distro will probably decide which one you use though. I haven't used Filezilla so not sure which one in Linux would be most like it. If you can handle WS FTP, AxyFTP is a virtual clone. You'll probably have to try several to find the one you like.

10.  And what about Firewalls?  Are they available?  I know I read in a recent PCWorld article where the guy was trying out Xandros, that it comes with a Firewall (and a high price) but are they common with distros or are there open source ones out there?

Every popular distro that I know of includes a built-in firewall. Usually it's fairly simple - block every port except for some you specify be allowed like SSH or FTP. If you don't like the one that comes with it, you can download something more configurable or learn iptables (the command-line way to define your own rules).Finally a couple of words of advice. Everybody here has their own favorite distro including me. So you're right in suggesting that asking what they use might start a war or at least a friendly bar-fight. Heck, suggesting what bootloader to use can do that here. Actually, we're pretty friendly here but any information you receive about a distro is pretty subjective.But it can be useful to know what people here use because they can help you. Bruno uses everything so no need to listen to him. I use SUSE and some people like it and some hate it (or it hates them). Read about teacher's trials and you'll see what I mean. Basically the reason the info isn't objective comes down the fact that if it works on your machine you at least like it. If it doesn't, you hate it. The hardware detection can vary widely from one distribution to another. So can the installer and configuration utilities (the control panel). But the most popular programs are available across most distros (from the CD if not installed automatically) and with a bit of effort you can often get any Linux program running on any distro. It's a very personal decision and you often won't know until you've been using your computer for months. It's best to download several Live CDs, try each of them out to see if your hardware works right away and then install that version. SUSE only comes as a Live DVD unfortunately. Two distros that are available on a single CD that can be installed from that same CD later (if you like it) are SimplyMepis and PC LOS. Of the two, PC LOS is easier to use because it has a full Control Center (like Windows Control Panel). Ubuntu has a Live CD but I don't think you can install it from that CD (they have a separate Install CD). However, that's only two CDs.The other thing is that if you want to go full-blown Linux, you can operate Photoshop under Linux with a product called CrossOver Office. It's $50 USD but you can try it for 15 (or 30? don't remember) for free from http://codeweavers.com . You can also try with WINE ( http://winehq.org ) which a free version of what CrossOver Office is based on.