epp_b Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 I am having a problem creating images with BootIt NG. I am working with two partitions: Source partition: Primary bootable NTFS, 13.7 GB total / 4.37 GB used / 9.37 GB free Target for image: Logical non-bootable NTFS, 21.5 GB total / 4.21 GB used, 17.3 GB freeEvery time I attempt to create an image of [source] to [Target], it stalls about mid-way through the process and reports the error "Error on write or disk full" no matter what size I select to compress the image to. Now, certainly, [Target] is not full (unless there is some extra space required for imaging that I am unaware of), and there are no errors on the disk to the extent that I tested.I have tried the following to troubleshoot the problem: - Ran CHKDSK on [source] (no problems found) - Ran CHKDSK on [Target] (no problems found) - Deleted [Target], recreated [Target], formatted [Target] to NTFS - Created an image of [source] on a different partition on a hard disk connected via a USB 2.0 enclosure. While it did complete the image, it failed to validate the image properly (reported the error: "Unable to read from file")Any other ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrainey Posted April 7, 2006 Share Posted April 7, 2006 TeraByte is very responsive. I'd ask them.support@terabyteunlimited.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted April 7, 2006 Author Share Posted April 7, 2006 TeraByte is very responsive. I'd ask them.Yes, I've noticed their support is very quick. I've already asked them and received a response. Haven't been able to fix anything yet, but they made some suggestions of what I should try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted April 7, 2006 Author Share Posted April 7, 2006 (edited) Hmmm...well, I seem to have gotten somewhere here!If I put the drive in my second pull-out bay (connected to channel 2) I seem to be able to create images no problem. When I fiddle around with the cables and put the drive back on channel 1, it works inconsistently. Note that my CD-RW is connected as the secondary slave.What do you think? Cable noise? Bad pull-out bay?I'll try connecting my CD-RW on the primary channel to narrow down the problem a bit more yet. Edited April 7, 2006 by epp_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted April 7, 2006 Author Share Posted April 7, 2006 I connected my CD-RW as the primary slave and the primary hard drive was still a no-go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted April 7, 2006 Author Share Posted April 7, 2006 (edited) what kind of cable? ide?if so, does it have 40 or 80 wires?bet the one that works has 80 & the one that doesn't has 40.(every 2nd wire in an 80 wire cable is a ground to absorb noise...)Nope, they're both 80-pin IDE/PATA cables. In fact, Windows XP doesn't even install with a 40-pin cable.Also note that I swapped the cables -- and both times, it still worked on the secondary channel. Edited April 7, 2006 by epp_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burninbush Posted April 8, 2006 Share Posted April 8, 2006 Nope, they're both 80-pin IDE/PATA cables. In fact, Windows XP doesn't even install with a 40-pin cable.Also note that I swapped the cables -- and both times, it still worked on the secondary channel.You may just have a bad cable? I wonder how your drives are jumpered? Master/slave, or CS? There are a couple different types of 80-wire cables out there; some require a slave to be on the middle connector, and master on the end, even when they are explicitly jumpered. Other cables don't care so long as [obviously] you don't have two drives with the same address on the one cable. There's also a hardware consideration with removable trays -- you should never have a stub of cable hanging free, i.e., drive attached to the middle connector, and nothing on the far end. That will guarantee signal reflections, which may trash the ability of the attached middle drive and/or the mobo to read data. So ... if you ever run it with only one drive installed, it must be on the end connector. IOW, there must always be terminator resistors [inside a drive] at the end of the cable. Here, I always use explicit master/slave jumpering, and if I find a cable that won't work with a slave on the end and master in the middle, I toss it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted April 8, 2006 Author Share Posted April 8, 2006 (edited) You may just have a bad cable?Once again...I switched the primary and secondary cables, and it hasn't fixed anything.I wonder how your drives are jumpered? Master/slave, or CS?They're are both jumpered as master.There are a couple different types of 80-wire cables out there; some require a slave to be on the middle connector, and master on the end, even when they are explicitly jumpered.Both drives are always connected as master and jumpered as master.Other cables don't care so long as [obviously] you don't have two drives with the same address on the one cable....which I don't.There's also a hardware consideration with removable trays -- you should never have a stub of cable hanging free, i.e., drive attached to the middle connector, and nothing on the far end. That will guarantee signal reflections, which may trash the ability of the attached middle drive and/or the mobo to read data. So ... if you ever run it with only one drive installed, it must be on the end connector. IOW, there must always be terminator resistors [inside a drive] at the end of the cable.Hmm...well, the middle (slave) connector on the primary cable is open. On the other hand, I did try connecting the CD-RW as the primary slave, so I'm not sure if this is the problem. What can I do to close it up anyway?Here, I always use explicit master/slave jumperingSame here. Edited April 8, 2006 by epp_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burninbush Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Once again...I switched the primary and secondary cables, and it hasn't fixed anything.They're are both jumpered as master.Well -- then perhaps one of your mobo ide ports is busted -- not impossible. Or, maybe one channel only fails when it has a load of two drives attached***, or perhaps one of the drives on the cable with two drives is creating an unusual loading situation. Certainly, you should have cmos drive type for at least the removable positions set to Auto -- force bios to detect what type of drive is attached at each bootup, even if the swapped drives are presumed to be exactly alike. [sounds like you have 3 devices and 4 connectors -- so you should be able to eventually work combinations that reliably fail, and then follow the failure to a particular device] There isn't much inside those tray devices -- a short section of ribbon cable and the big connector at the back. No added electronics at all, not much to fail. As for the open end ribbon cable, with a good cable it doesn't matter whether master or slave is at the end of the cable, so for most puter cases, that means an optical drive is at the far end of the cable, and the swappable-tray position is on the middle connector. Then, middle connector in or out won't matter from a cable-termination standpoint. Whether the optical is master or slave shouldn't matter to any reasonably modern mobo [bios]. I doubt the usb failure means anything, other than just another demonstration that usb-whatever is generally #$%^& hardware and @#$%^ software drivers working in combination -- a backup disaster waiting to happen. *** any ide setup with more than one drive per cable is an engineering failure; the cable needs an exact resistive termination to work optimally -- impedance matched -- but it can't be right for both one drive and two drives per cable. Maybe some day drive vendors will have jumper selectable terminators like scsi devices [so you can disable termination on the middle drive], but that would of course create a new set of config problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 (edited) Well -- then perhaps one of your mobo ide ports is busted -- not impossible.I doubt it. I would expect to be experiencing other related problems if this were the case. This is also a brand new motherboard. Nonetheless, I'll look into it.Or, maybe one channel only fails when it has a load of two drives attached***No, no, no: only when it's on the second channel, which has two IDE devices attached (HDD as master, CD-RW as slave), does it work properly. It doesn't work consistently on the channel 1, to which only one drive attached. (FYI, it is attached and jumpered as master)Certainly, you should have cmos drive type for at least the removable positions set to Auto -- force bios to detect what type of drive is attached at each bootup, even if the swapped drives are presumed to be exactly alike.I never have my BIOSes set any other way -- I make sure they're always on auto for the hard drive detection at POST.I doubt the usb failure means anything, other than just another demonstration that usb-whatever is generally #$%^& hardware and @#$%^ software drivers working in combination -- a backup disaster waiting to happen.Actually, I think was a conflict: BootIt NG has its own built-in USB disk drivers, but so does my BIOS. I was letting it pick up the drive from the BIOS USB recognition when I should have been letting BootIt NG use its own driver.*** any ide setup with more than one drive per cable is an engineering failure; the cable needs an exact resistive termination to work optimally -- impedance matched -- but it can't be right for both one drive and two drives per cable.No offense, but I don't buy that. Two devices attached to one IDE channel is a standard thing.Maybe some day drive vendors will have jumper selectable terminators like scsi devices [so you can disable termination on the middle drive], but that would of course create a new set of config problems.SATA is set up to only have one drive per channel.BTW, I ran another imaging process today with the drive attached as IDE 1 Master, and it didn't give me any problems. But, like I said, it's inconsistent. Edited April 9, 2006 by epp_b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsden11 Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 I have owned MBs (AOpen, iWill) where the Primary and Secondary IDE channels both failed. I have a machine right now in my rack that only has one working USB port. The other one has died.In all cases above the rest of the motherboard worked flawlessly. A single component failure does not necessarily mean the whole motherboard is toast or will not function properly.I have had brand new MBs fail with a wild trace after it hit a certain temp. I have had brand new SCSI drives DOA right out of the anti-static bags. Clients were non-believing until they personally viewed the diagnostics with their own eyes. "It is impossible for those SCSI drives to be dead!" But they were and it was very hard to swallow for that paticular client.Your trouble shooting will be incomplete if you make false assumptions regarding the infallibility of your equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 OK, I'll bite....how can I test the drive controller/IDE1 slot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsden11 Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 Isolate...Test the trays and the holders seperately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burninbush Posted April 9, 2006 Share Posted April 9, 2006 QUOTE*** any ide setup with more than one drive per cable is an engineering failure; the cable needs an exact resistive termination to work optimally -- impedance matched -- but it can't be right for both one drive and two drives per cable.>>bbNo offense, but I don't buy that. Two devices attached to one IDE channel is a standard thing.>>epp+++++++++++++Well, buy it or don't as you like, but because it can be made to work with two disks doesn't mean it isn't an engineering failure. Cables always have characteristic impedance, and only work correctly as a data transmission media when each conductor is terminated at each end with that same value of resistance. Put a 2nd drive on the cable, and the terminators are in parallel, half the proper value. If you ever wondered why a scsi cable can be 10' or longer, but ide can only be 18" -- improper termination is the exact reason. When the IDE spec was first published, it only allowed one device. Various geniuses discovered you could re-purpose some control signals to make effective device selects, and thus we got the kludge of ide ribbon cables with two devices attached. It only works with very short cables. If you were to take that puter to the shop, very likely the first thing they'd do after hearing you say 'intermittent' would be to change both ribbon cables. If that makes no difference, then you're left with a good set of spare cables. As for testing, no better place to begin than with the drive vendor's diag diskette. Run every test they have, will likely expose any hardware problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epp_b Posted April 9, 2006 Author Share Posted April 9, 2006 As for testing, no better place to begin than with the drive vendor's diag diskette. Run every test they have, will likely expose any hardware problems.I've already run all of the available tests from Maxtor. No problems with the drives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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