Hawaii as New North Pole? Brrrr

[Guest LilBambi]

Thanks quint and Stonegiant!I too love those great quotes ... and quint, yes, I definitely remember that quote!

[Guest Paracelsus]

I enjoy "Wild Tangents" as much as the next Fella (or Lady). But...I would also enjoy having this thread return to the Fundamental topics of Geomagnetic Pole Reversal a/o Global Warming. Understanding, of course, that there is no real ill will or malice involved in the current exchange over Sun Blocks, or Penny Stocks...But these are issues that well deserve their own Threads... N'est Pas Cela Si??

[Guest LilBambi]

Paracelsus ... I couldn't agree more! Done!

[Guest LilBambi]

http://www.psc.edu/science/Glatzmaier/glatzmaier.html

Magnetic Flip-FlopsConsidering that ships, planes and Boy Scouts steer by it, Earth's magnetic field is less reliable than you'd think. Rocks in an ancient lava flow in Oregon suggest that for a brief erratic span about 16 million years ago magnetic north shifted as much as 6 degrees per day. After little more than a week, a compass needle would have pointed toward Mexico City. The lava catches Earth's magnetic field in the act of reversing itself. Magnetic north heads south, and -- over about 1,000 years -- the field does a complete flip-flop. While the Oregon data is controversial, Earth scientists agree that the geological evidence as a whole -- the "paleomagnetic" record -- proves such reversals happened many times over the past billion years. "Some reversals occurred within a few 10,000 years of each other," says Los Alamos scientist Gary Glatzmaier, "and there are other periods where no reversals occurred for tens of millions of years." How do these flip-flops happen, and why at such irregular intervals? The geological data, invaluable to show what happened, registers only a mute shrug when it comes to the deeper questions. For that matter, why is it that instead of quietly fading away, as magnetic fields do when left to their own devices, Earth's magnetic field is still going strong after billions of years? Einstein is said to have considered it one of the most important unsolved problems in physics. With a year of computing on Pittsburgh's CRAY C90, 2,000 hours of processing, Glatzmaier and collaborator Paul Roberts of UCLA took a big step toward some answers. Their numerical model of the electromagnetic, fluid dynamical processes of Earth's interior reproduced key features of the magnetic field over more than 40,000 years of simulated time. To top it off, the computer-generated field reversed itself. "We weren't expecting it," says Roberts, "and were delighted. This gives us confidence we've built a credible bridge between theory and the paleomagnetic data." Their surprising results, reported as a cover story in Nature (Sept. 21, 1995), provide an inner-Earth view of geomagnetic phenomena that have not been observed or anticipated by theory. Furthermore, the Glatzmaier-Roberts model offers, for the first time, a coherent explanation of magnetic field reversal.

http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/amag.html

Why does the magnetic pole of the Earth flip? The reason for the polarity reversal seems to be in the way that magnetic dynamos evolve in time. We see this process taking place in the sun every 22 years, so this makes it easier to study the process than for the earth's field. According to the Parker Magnetic Dynamo Theory developed in the 1960's, you need several ingredients including a conductive region that is spinning, and a convecting region. Lines of magnetic flux become wrapped around the rotating core and become buoyant. The float up into the convecting layer and become cyclonically twisted until they pop through the surface as 'sunspots'. The sunspot fields are born with polarities such that the leading spot has the opposite polarity of the hemisphere it is in. If the large-scale field is dipolar, then the migration of these sunspot fields across the solar surface is supposed to neutralize some of the original dipolar field. As the sunspot cycle reaches its maximum, most of the spots are near the equatorial region and produce a strong toroidal solar field. As the cycle weakens thereafter, the toroidal field weakens and what remains is a large scale dipolar field with an opposite polarity to what it had at the start of the sunspot cycle. After two sunspot cycles...22 years or so...the original polarity is reestablished. For the Earth, the theory may still apply except that the quantities that define the electrical conductivity, matter density and resistivity, and rotation rates are different. A back of the envelope calculation lets you use this theory to recover the 22 year solar cycle, and the 250,000 year terrestrial cycle, from the same equation. Presumably inside the Earth, the iron-nickel core is highly conducting, and is surrounded by a convecting mantle in which magnetic flux can get trapped and cyclonically convected deep inside the Earth. We do not see the 'sunspots' inside the Earth like the surface markings on the sun because the physics is different. We may eventually be able to map out the magnetic field distribution in the core region and discover such features.

[ibe98765]

Those were some very interesting links, Fran. Thanks! I've learned much more than I expected when I started this thread. I thought the answer to the question below was interesting. I didn't know that the magnetic field's force was decreasing.

http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/q816.htmlIs the Earth's magnetic field changing? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Indeed it is. It currently has a strength at the Earth's surface of 0.6 Gauss. But long term observations show that it is DECREASING at a rate of about 0.07 percent PER YEAR. This means that in 1500 years from now, it will only be about 35 percent as strong as it is today, and in 4000 years it will have a strength of practically zero. Because the magnetic field is a critical buffer shielding the biosphere from cosmic rays and charged particles from the Sun, the health hazard posed by the Earth loosing its magnetic field is hard to comprehend. The geologic record, however, shows that the Earth's polarity flips every 250,000 years or so and that presumably half way through each 'flip' cycle, the field goes to a value near zero. There are no identifiable fossil effects from previous flips, so perhaps they are not as mutagenic as we might suppose. On the other hand, perhaps other species are less susceptible to genetic damage than we humans! We know that many species of bacteria, birds and fish can sense the direction of the magnetic field and use it for migration and finding food in murky waters. These animals may perish 'suddenly' when the field changes and they can no longer rely on it to orient themselves. We have never experienced loosing our magnetic field, and the fossil record is pretty mute about the effects. No one really knows if the condition of zero-field will last 5 years, 10 years or 500 years. Stay tuned!

[Guest LilBambi]

Thanks ibe98765 .. I hadn't done any reading on this subject for a very long time ... until you started this thread. BTW: I didn't know that either till you started the thread! Course there are even various scientific views on the magnetic field changes too! LOL!

[ibe98765]

Getting back to the tangent of Dupont and CFC:

http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/re...nstanceid=58555THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE IS EVAPORATING . . . and at current rate every human will die in 8 years -- says top scientist! By VINCENZO SARDI JOHANNESBURG, South Africa -- Earth's atmosphere is rapidly leaking out through holes in the ozone layer -- and if the alarming trend continues at the current rate, every human on the planet will die a slow and agonizing death by suffocation within just eight short years! That is the terrifying warning of a top South African geophysicist who says that man himself is to blame for the deadly new ecological crisis. "Due to the infamous greenhouse effect created by human pollution, two huge holes have been punched in the ozone layer, one over the North Pole and one over the South Pole," says Dr. Iain van Wyck, chief researcher of the Upper Stratosphere Survey Project. "That thin ozone layer is like a thin protective shield surrounding Earth. Until now, most of the focus has been on the danger of global warming, caused by harmful ultraviolet radiation pouring in through those holes. But what no one has been concerned about is what is escaping from those holes," Dr. van Wyck says. Recent satellite photographs examined by Dr. van Wyck's team of experts show clearly that oxygen is leaking out at a rate of billions of molecules per minute. Scientists say millions of years ago our atmosphere didn't contain oxygen -- and Dr. van Wyck warns that by the year 2011, it will return to that state. "Earth will be like the moon, incapable of sustaining life," the expert predicts. Our atmosphere is a mixture of gases -- 78 percent nitrogen, 21 percent oxygen and 1 percent other gases. It has five basic layers. Closest to Earth is the troposphere, where all weather takes place; above that is the stratosphere, where air flow is mostly horizontal. Above that is the thin ozone layer, made up of a special form of oxygen. Above that is the mesosphere and above that is the ionosphere, where atoms are ionized. "The ozone layer is the most narrow layer, but in a way it's the most important of all," explains Dr. van Wyck. "It seals in the gases that make life possible on Earth. By depleting it, we've doomed ourselves." Some U.S. government scientists question Dr. van Wyck's results and one even branded him a "Chicken Little who is needlessly alarming the public." But Dr. van Wyck fires back, "These are the same people who pooh-poohed global warming. If something isn't done fast, we'll all die choking -- while fighting over old jars to see who gets the last breath of air." Published on: July 15, 2003

[Prelude76]

classic line! love it!

"These are the same people who pooh-poohed global warming. If something isn't done fast, we'll all die choking -- while fighting over old jars to see who gets the last breath of air."

[beeTee]

For the Earth, the theory may still apply except that the quantities that define the electrical conductivity, matter density and resistivity, and rotation rates are different. A back of the envelope calculation lets you use this theory to recover the 22 year solar cycle, and the 250,000 year terrestrial cycle, from the same equation. Presumably inside the Earth, the iron-nickel core is highly conducting, and is surrounded by a convecting mantle in which magnetic flux can get trapped and cyclonically convected deep inside the Earth. We do not see the 'sunspots' inside the Earth like the surface markings on the sun because the physics is different. We may eventually be able to map out the magnetic field distribution in the core region and discover such features.

Some of you that are new to this subject, should always keep in mind that everything going on (above) is THEORY here. "They" still don't know what causes the magnetic field. First off (again, above) the original THEORY about how the magnetism works in the sun, being applied, somewhat, to how it might work in the earth, IF their theory about the Earths magnetic field is correct.What's wrong with the flowing molten core being the source of our magnetic field??? I'm quoting from memory here, but here goes....the Earth's interior temperature (in theory) exceeds the limit at which an electric charge can be produced.can someone help me out with this. I read it in an Isaac Asimov book (non-fiction) where he covers the subject quite deeply.

[Jeber]

oxygen is leaking out at a rate of billions of molecules per minute.

You know it's real science when they use really big numbers..................though it might be a wee bit more believable had he had an actual number.

[ibe98765]

oxygen is leaking out at a rate of billions of molecules per minute.

You know it's real science when they use really big numbers..................though it might be a wee bit more believable had he had an actual number.

Billions of anything always sounds like a lot (Bill Gates fortune for instance) but in terms of atoms, it ain't that much.

Atoms on a Pin Head Q: how many atom can fit on the head of a pin? bev (age )elementarysalt lake city ut usa A: According to: http://www.4chemistry.co.uk/L5th-atom-notes1.htm About five million million hydrogen atoms could fit. Some factors would affect that number like the area of the head and the size of atoms (as well as attractions between atoms). Some atoms are larger than others.

And anyway, oyxgen isn't a molecule, it's an atom. Put 2 oxygen atoms together and you get dioxygen (O2), which is a molecule. Add 2 hydrogen atoms to one oxygen atom and you get a molecule of water (H20).

[Jeber]

I never finished element-ary school...I am an oxymoron.

[Cluttermagnet]

Wow- great thread! Three pages in 24 hours. Not bad, guys. Trouble is, you've given me too much outside reading all at one time. I will try to catch up later.Thanks to Paracelsus for reminding us how we came to think we know that the earth's magnetic field flips polarity, and perhaps how often. Yep, makes sense- little magnetic domains all lined up in crustal material that was molten from volcanism and then cooled. So I guess I'm willing to take 'their' word for it when they say it only happens every 250,000 years or whatever. Well, you know what Akroyd said in Ghost Busters: "Back off man- I'm a scientist!" :lol:However this system does it, it looks to have pretty good dynamic equilibrium, remaining pretty stable for extended periods. I have a nervous hunch that some major shifts happen rapidly with a 'hysteresis'- like (snap action) effect, however. Maybe over centuries in the case of ice ages, coming or going, and maybe in just hours for some of the magnetic events and centuries for others. Who knows? BeeTee may be right about things being too hot to produce electrical charge- but that's not necessarily a problem. All we really need is for this very hot iron-nickel molten core to still be able to line up some magnetic domains, and then the whole thing might still be able to behave like a magnet. We don't need to create or move any charge, we only need to produce magnetism- in the core, at least. Yes, a dynamo would need some currents moving around somewhere- in the mantle, perhaps. The mantle is not as hot as the core, so they say. Man- made permanent magnets lose their magnetization if we get them too hot, or so I remember anyway, but a dynamo should continue to crank out a magnetic field so long as there are some currents in the 'field winding' (mantle).What surprises is how relatively weak the earth's magnetic field is. Have you ever thought about that? I mean, the earth's core is humongous, so why isn't the field humongous? We humans have learned how to produce some incredibly strong magnetic materials and fields over small areas. The earth's magnetic field strength was once defined as 1 Gauss. So maybe it's a little less now, but what's a few fractional Gauss among friends? I worked for a time during my college years with an NMR spectroscopy group doing chemistry studies using NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance). These are the gadgets that have gone on to be refined into 'cat scanners' and 'pet scanners' and other such marvelous medical imaging equipment. In our lab's NMR, the field strength between the two pole faces was 15 kiloGauss. Thats 15 thousand times stronger than the earth's magnetic field. But of course, the earth's 'pole faces', wherever they are, must be considerably larger than the 12 inch faces in our spectrometer, which were only inches apart. Anyway, out in 'normal space' near the earth's surface, where I am right now, a field strength of about 1 gauss is pretty wimpy. 15K Gauss, OTOH, is a big bully that will snatch magnetic tools right out of your hands if you get too close, and that tool isn't coming loose until you shut down that big, beefy power supply that runs the magnet. So why doesn't the earth's field snatch that screwdriver out of your hand and fly it straight to the north or south pole? I guess only because the field is distributed over such a very large area. Among other things, it is protecting us from all those energetic outbursts from old Sol, the 'furnace' of our solar system.So what would happen if the earth's magnetic field reversed while there were actual live plants and animals roaming around? Well, probably all those critters would float off into outer space. No, just kidding. That wouldn't really happen. One of the references describes how the earth's field would get weak and pass through zero and then build in the opposite polarity direction. I have a hunch the real fireworks happen when the earth's field builds to a maximum (either polarity). Then the earth and the sun probably start trading insults and then get into a big magnetic wrestling match and eventually the sun wins and gets the earth's bad attitude straightened out and then everything is harmonious for another quarter million years or so.So our descendents probably won't have to fight each other over a few jars containing that last little bit of air, when all this happens. It has got to be interesting when you have an entire solar system where most of the players are dynamos. You have dynamos orbiting other dynamos. At times, things must get reeeeeeeal interesting.

[Guest Paracelsus]

CM....I do believe you've put it all in a Nutshell Love the part about the Sun-Earth relationship. Sounds like the kind of dysfunctional family I can relate to And while I haven't ingested enough caffeine (yet) this morning to fully lubricate my neocortex, and hence can't recall all the geophysics I learned (no joke!... I was smart, once)...I do remember something about how a molten Fe-Ni core can produce a magnetic field.It manifests according to the same principle as a "dynamo"... which in part is why the fundamental force is referred to as "Electro-Magnetism". Just as an electric current "induces" a magnetic field... a magnetic field "induces" an electric current. (CM... I know you understand this. BTW... could you refresh my memory concerning 3-phase wiring?? ) Anyway...A large part of Earth's GeoMagnetic Field (hereafter referred to as "GMF") comes not, from intrinsic generation... but from the fact that our planet is basically a huge ball of molten metal revolving around a Star...And thereby continuously "cutting through" the magnetic field of that Star. (Sound familiar to anyone??)

[beeTee]

Only have a second to jump in and back out. The Sun Earth connection has been a hobby subject of mine for a while now. Here is the Official NASA web site on the subject. Great things in there.one must be carefull on the subject. There's lots of pseudo science out there!!!!

[Guest Paracelsus]

WAY Cool!!!, BT....Put my lame attempts at explanation to shame (Actually, I was just toooooo lazy to search). However...Your link is THE place to go for answers Folks....Try a Search with "geomagnetic field generation" Info to last a lifetime

[Guest LilBambi]

Thanks Paracelsus! Great search results!

[Guest LilBambi]

Only have a second to jump in and back out.  The Sun Earth connection has been a hobby subject of mine for a while now.  Here is the Official NASA web site on the subject.  Great things in there.one must be carefull on the subject.  There's lots of pseudo science out there!!!! 

Thanks BT! Paracelsus is right, definitely a great site!

[Guest Paracelsus]

Thanks Paracelsus! Great search results! 

LB... Gotta thank beeTee (not Me) Coulda found that if I wanted to ... Too Lazy ... And I've just turned on my oven for the first time since April .... Lasagna!!!... Here I come

[Guest LilBambi]

Paracelsus,Already did that after going back and reading his post and link too. It always amazes me when I see pictures that show just how little actually gets to the earth, how much is diverted around our fair planet:http://lws.gsfc.nasa.gov/overview5.htmBut I was thanking you for a specific search phrase. That was one combination I hadn't tried "geomagnetic field generation. It was a logical step, but I hadn't tried that combination as yet. Yielded many good sites.

[Guest Paracelsus]

K....I get it, now! Although...Your link kinda reminds me of one of those "You Are Here" maps at the Mall

[Cluttermagnet]

Only have a second to jump in and back out.  The Sun Earth connection has been a hobby subject of mine for a while now.  Here is the Official NASA web site on the subject.  Great things in there.one must be carefull on the subject.  There's lots of pseudo science out there!!!! 

Cool website, BeeTee! I will spend some more time there. The graphics I have seen so far were impressive. Definitely of the '1000 words' variety. They are doing a good job of explaining this complicated stuff to the layman with an absolute minimum of words in the captions. I especially like the one that shows all the satellites they have deployed around the sun and the earth. I had forgotten they had quite so many different viewpoints covered. Looks like they even stuck one in the L2 point (LaGrangean?). I think that is where the gravitational pull from the earth and the moon is equal (?) How do those poor satellites hold up when the sun sends all those protons and x-rays at them? Pretty amazing.

[Cluttermagnet]

  CM....I do believe you've put it all in a Nutshell Love the part about the Sun-Earth relationship.  Sounds like the kind of dysfunctional family I can relate to

I'm going to take the "nutshell" comment as a compliment. The sun and the earth have been in this power struggle for a long time. You would think they would have worked it out by now. But perhaps the conflict serves some inner need of theirs...Most of these dynamo models can be made to work 'both ways' In many cases, you can take an electric motor, turn the motor shaft fast enough, and measure some voltage across the motor windings. 'Real' generators are actually designed a little differently than motors, but they should all behave reciprocally.My favorite elementary school science demo has always been that simple experiment with a horseshoe magnet, sheet of paper, and iron filings. It is impressive to see that little pile of iron suddenly levitate and form strands or even short little "U" shapes as you move the magnet under the paper. Aside from the science, I always thought the demo was a powerful metaphor that shows that even invisible forces are nonetheless 'real' and can manifest in our world in some very real ways.When you finish the simple magnetism demo, you usually move on to the solenoid with a steel nail for a core and a big winding of insulated copper wire wrapped around it. Hook a battery to the winding and you can show it has a magnetic field, using the iron filings. Then for the more advanced demos, you can do various things like rotating the solenoid past some magnets (you need some slip- ring electrical contacts for this), or rotate some magnets past the ends of the solenoid, and maybe use an oscilloscope to show that you are creating time- varying (AC) 'electricity' in the winding. For a simpler but more dramatic proof, design the little dynamo to be efficient enough to light up a flashlight bulb when hand- cranked.It figures that the earth cutting through magnetic lines of force from the sun has something to do with the earth having its own magnetic field. Call it "the little dynamo that could ".

(CM... I know you understand this. BTW... could you refresh my memory concerning 3-phase wiring??

I have it on good authority that the sun is wired for 3-phase. It's too hot to go there and prove it, however. (sung to the Beach Boys' "Two Girls For Every Boy"): "One load for every phase!"...

[Cluttermagnet]

Try a Search with "geomagnetic field generation"      

That is a very productive search terms set. Even on just the first page Google returns, you have an informative discussion of how computer modeling shows the field moving around and reversing at times: Core Convection and the Geodynamo. Great graphics!Further on is a link to a page with an explanation of the mathematical modeling used with the supercomputers to generate these results: Advances in Modeling the Generation of the Geomagnetic Field by the Use of Massively Parallel Computers and Profound Optimization Yes, this is real MEGO stuff here (my eyes glaze over), but one sort of gets the gist of it. It is a really big modeling and computational problem, probably similar to forecasting the earth's weather.It appears that the earth is a pretty powerful little dynamo in its own right, and can make its own magnetism without outside help. It only cuts across the sun's magnetic lines of force to make it feel more important and needed. That distracts the sun from remembering that it is the earth's sole source of energy. Having signed an unfavorable prenuptial agreement, the earth realizes that it could not make it on its own. Meanwhile, the sun whispers to the earth "my you are such a pretty blue, brown, and white orb, and so profoundly optimized..."

[beeTee]

Looks like they even stuck one in the L2 point (LaGrangean?). I think that is where the gravitational pull from the earth and the moon is equal (?) How do those poor satellites hold up when the sun sends all those protons and x-rays at them? Pretty amazing.

Yes, quite amazing!! it called the La Grange Point, and it IS where the Sun and Earth's gravity cancel eachother out. We've got a couple of guys moving to the ESA next year to work a mission going out to L2. Forget the name now, but more later.

Aside from the science, I always thought the demo was a powerful metaphor that shows that even invisible forces are nonetheless 'real' and can manifest in our world in some very real ways.

You've said a mouthfull there... there is currently scientific research that is monitoring the release (under great pressure) of plasma from the Earths atmosphere into space, getting sucked up and flushed back into the tail of the Van Allen Belts. I wish I could remember the name. tryed to google it, but came up empty. OK, not empty, I'll post some other great links in a little bit. Back to maifestations. "They are now (have been) studying how the ionization is transfered down into the atmosphere and changing weather patterns. Or shall I say, IS a part of the weather making process. I have some mpeg video's saved on some BU that I need to put on my hard drive anyways. I'll do that later.Other manifestations? Aurora (Northern/Southern Lights), and as an extension of that, Power Outages and other phenomena that affect oil lines running great distances. I'm a little rusty on the subject. Need to bone up a little.want another Link?? (hope you have some time on ya'lls hands. This subject is addictive. NASAs Earth MissionsOn a more philisophical note, if you try to move your perspecive way back, so as you can visualize the whole solar system spinning in harmony together, all held together by gravity and the IMF (IMF), One might even muse that we are not only "spaceship Earth", traveling together, but Spaceship SOL, one great entity traveling through the Galaxy. (of course, if you're ready for an overload, try to apply it to the Galaxy moving through the Universe)

[Guest LilBambi]

Just when we thought we might be able to forget about all this ...Earth's Inconstant Magnetic Field

Scientists have long known that the magnetic pole moves. It was pinpointed first by James Ross in 1831 near the end of a grueling expedition in which his ship got stuck in the ice for four years. Understandably, perhaps, no one returned until the next century. In 1904, Roald Amundsen located the pole again and discovered that it had moved--at least 50 km since the days of Ross.The pole kept going during the 20th century, north at an average speed of 10 km per year, lately accelerating "to 40 km per year," says Newitt. At this rate it will exit North America and reach Siberia in a few decades.Keeping track of the north magnetic pole is Newitt's job. "We usually go out and check its location once every few years," he says. "We'll have to make more trips now that it is moving so quickly."Earth's magnetic field is changing in other ways, too: Compass needles in Africa, for instance, are drifting about 1 degree per decade. And globally the magnetic field has weakened 10% since the 19th century. When this was mentioned by researchers at a recent meeting of the American Geophysical Union, many newspapers carried the story. A typical headline: "Is Earth's magnetic field collapsing?"Probably not. As remarkable as these changes sound, "they're mild compared to what Earth's magnetic field has done in the past," says University of California professor Gary Glatzmaier.

More at the site....