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weird boot problem with Manjaro


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#1 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 05 August 2019 - 06:53 PM

I have Mint 19.2 cinnamon as my primary Distro. I installed Latest Manjaro xfce on a different ssd and got all of the updates. I wanted to boot it using Mints grub menu on my main drive. Mints grub found Manjaro when I booted up But when I click on Manjaro I get a blank screen. The only way I can boot it with mints grub menu is to use the advanced menu and then choose the fallback mode then it will boot up. I can also change the boot drive in the bios and boot it using the manjaro grub menu. What gives.
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#2 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 06:22 AM

Possibly https://forum.manjar...a-message/56590
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#3 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 09:14 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 06 August 2019 - 06:22 AM, said:

Thanks security
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#4 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 09:16 PM

Did it help any?
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#5 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 10:52 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 06 August 2019 - 09:16 PM, said:

Did it help any?
Yes, but have not reinstalled it yet. Still playing with other distro's..
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#6 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 06 August 2019 - 10:58 PM

Cool :thumbsup:
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#7 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 07:43 PM

Found out that this is a Old Arch Problem. You have to have ARCH / Manjaro as the primary Grub2 or it won't boot from another distro's grub2. Don't know if there is a workaround or not. I just won't use it unless it will work in VM.
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#8 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 08:03 PM

View Postmhbell, on 29 August 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

Found out that this is a Old Arch Problem. You have to have ARCH / Manjaro as the primary Grub2 or it won't boot from another distro's grub2. Don't know if there is a workaround or not. I just won't use it unless it will work in VM.

I am almost 100% sure that that is not the case on Archlinux as I know several people who use archlinux as their secondary OS.

Plus, Manjaro and Archlinux do not share the same issues as Manjaro is heavily patched and they hold back packages which causes tons of issues that you would not see on Archlinux. They are as close as Ubuntu and Debian is... in other words, not very close besides the package manager.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#9 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 08:07 PM

This link shows you how to dual boot ubuntu and archlinux while using ubuntu's bootloader:  http://www.linuxandu...-and-arch-linux
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#10 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 08:44 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 29 August 2019 - 08:07 PM, said:

This link shows you how to dual boot ubuntu and archlinux while using ubuntu's bootloader:  http://www.linuxandu...-and-arch-linux
The problem is that is for a system using MBR partitioning. and not uefi. I only use GPT partitioning and UEFI. here is a explanation as to why Manjaro will not work using another os's grub boot loader.

Quote

Updating Ubuntu to a newer version (or installing an older version) restores Debian-Grub, replacing the working Arch-Grub.  This will result in Debian-Grub showing both Ubuntu and Manjaro as options on booting.  Choosing Ubuntu from Arch-Grub works just fine.  However, choosing Manjaro from Debian-Grub will lead to Posted Image
“Kernal Panic after upgrade”


On my computer, the only way to exit this screen was to pull kill the power for a cold reboot.
The reason that Arch-Grub is different from Debian-Grub is that it loads Intel microcode before the OS, rather than inside the OS.


Manjaro will load intel-ucode using grub.
Unlike other OS’s, it is not built into initd (initramfs) nor into kernel.
But it will load this separately (first) from /boot/intel-ucode.img

It is done automatically for you when you install or boot Manjaro (provided you use Manjaro’s bootloader (grub) as default bootloader).


Thus, Arch-Grub does more work than Debian-Grub.  Arch-Grub will successfully start Ubuntu (based on Debian), but Debian-Grub will not successfully start Manjaro (based on Arch).  The resolution is to replace Debian-Grub with Arch-Grub to the multiboot system.
From reading several different forums it appears that the only way to solve this without jumping through hoops is to use manjaros or arch grub boot loader.

[color=#555555"span style="font-family: Open Sans", sans-serif][font=Open Sans", sans-serif"span style="font-size: 8px]Mel[/font][/color]

Edited by mhbell, 31 August 2019 - 08:45 PM.

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#11 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 10:10 PM

Going by what you posted above, this seems like a Manjaro issue not Archlinux. Setting up grub on Archlinux (gpt or mbr) or adding archlinux to an existing Grub is pretty straight forward and covered in the wiki. https://wiki.archlin.../GRUB#GNU/Linux

Manjaro may be a completely different process but it does work with Archlinux if you follow the examples on the wiki page.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#12 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 11:16 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 31 August 2019 - 10:10 PM, said:

Going by what you posted above, this seems like a Manjaro issue not Archlinux. Setting up grub on Archlinux (gpt or mbr) or adding archlinux to an existing Grub is pretty straight forward and covered in the wiki. https://wiki.archlin.../GRUB#GNU/Linux

Manjaro may be a completely different process but it does work with Archlinux if you follow the examples on the wiki page.
Security I would like you to try a little experment. Install a Debian typr distro such as Mint, Ubuntu, or Debian. After install use the terminal and do a Update Grub. It will find the Arch or Manjaro Distro. Now reboot, on bootup choose the arch or manjaro distro in grub. Let me know if it will boot up without making changes to the debian / grub2 boot loader . UNless arch has changed their boot loader it will not work with out making a bunch of changes to the debian type grub boot loader.

Quote

The reason that Arch-Grub is different from Debian-Grub is that it loads Intel microcode before the OS, rather than inside the OS.


Manjaro will load intel-ucode using grub.
Unlike other OS’s, it is not built into initd (initramfs) nor into kernel.
But it will load this separately (first) from /boot/intel-ucode.img

It is done automatically for you when you install or boot Manjaro (provided you use Manjaro’s bootloader (grub) as default bootloader).


Thus, Arch-Grub does more work than Debian-Grub.  Arch-Grub will successfully start Ubuntu (based on Debian), but Debian-Grub will not successfully start Manjaro (based on Arch).  The resolution is to replace Debian-Grub with Arch-Grub to the multiboot system.
From reading several different forums it appears that the only way to solve this without jumping through hoops is to use manjaros or arch grub boot loader.

If Arch still uses the same grub system it will not work without modifiying the Debian grub2 loader.

Mel

Edited by mhbell, 31 August 2019 - 11:19 PM.

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#13 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 11:25 PM

I can help you troubleshoot your set up but I do not install any other OSs (outside of a vm) besides Archlinux. Since Archlinux uses the vanilla grub package from the original devs (without any patching), I do not think that it would be any different on a vanilla Archlinux set up than it would be on any other distro that doesn't change or patch Grub.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#14 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 11:29 PM

I could be wrong but it would be a rare thing for something to only affect Archlinux due to the fact that Archlinux doesn't change the package source at all and uses vanilla sourcecode that is not distro specific.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#15 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 12:58 AM

Several different forums that I belong to report the same problem and the reasons why. here is an example

Quote

It turns out that the Arch family of distros is very particular about how GRUB is configured. The Ubuntu family of distros (including Mint), configures GRUB in a way that gives the Arch family indigestion. Most other popular distros aren't all that particular. They're happy with the way Ubuntu does it. They're happy with the way Arch does it. Ubuntu is happy with the way Arch does it.
So if you are setting up a multi-boot arrangement that includes a distro from the Arch family, like Manjaro, install that last. That will leave GRUB with a "universally acceptable" configuration.
If you find yourself already in this situation, there is a simple fix that is likely to work (fixed it for me). That is, let Manjaro update GRUB.


The problem is when another distro installs its grub boot loader in the boot partition during a install or upgrade Manjaro stops working and won't boot. all my other distro's will boot and don't care which grub is booting them. This problem only occures when a arch distro is not the primary grub.
Mel

Edited by mhbell, 01 September 2019 - 01:04 AM.

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#16 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 09:38 AM

View Postmhbell, on 01 September 2019 - 12:58 AM, said:

The problem is when another distro installs its grub boot loader in the boot partition during a install or upgrade Manjaro stops working and won't boot. all my other distro's will boot and don't care which grub is booting them. This problem only occures when a arch distro is not the primary grub.
Mel

Yeah but have you tried it on actual Archlinux and not a derivative? Manjaro makes a lot of changes and is not like Archlinux. They share a package manager and not much else. Just because Manjaro has that issue doesn't automatically mean Archlinux does.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#17 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 01:40 PM

I wish I could help you solve this, Mel. I've never used Manjaro, but I've had a fair amount of experience with dual- and multi-boot setups involving Arch, and involving some other Arch-based distros, like Bridge Linux, Antergos, ArchBang, Chakra. Almost always, Debian is the booting distro here. And I currently have one dual-boot setup, with Debian and Arch, where Debian's grub handles the booting.

I figure that I should be able to do the same sort of thing with Manjaro, if I tried. But it looks like there are some differences between my setups and yours that might mean that I'd be of no real help to you. For example, I don't think I've yet had a setup like what we're talking about on a machine with UEFI involved. So I'd have to try adding Manjaro to one of my UEFI computers that's currently home to only Debian Buster. And I really don't have enough interest in Manjaro to bother with doing an installation (sorry!). Also I wonder how things would differ with Linux Mint being the booting distro instead of Debian; several years have passed since I've had Mint installed here -- Linux Mint 9 ("Isadora") was the last release I ran!

Nothing against Mint (or Manjaro), but over time I've been leaning more towards "parent" distros. The installation and setup may be more difficult and time-consuming, but going with the "parent" distro seems to work out better for me over the long haul. I do keep Kubuntu LTS on one computer, but other than that I always seem to end up coming back to Debian and Arch.

I'm thinking that you'd probably be able to get it to work, if you really want to delve into it and pursue it. Although you did say earlier in the thread, "I just won't use it unless it will work in VM." Best of luck!

#18 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 02:30 PM

View Postsaturnian, on 01 September 2019 - 01:40 PM, said:

I wish I could help you solve this, Mel. I've never used Manjaro, but I've had a fair amount of experience with dual- and multi-boot setups involving Arch, and involving some other Arch-based distros, like Bridge Linux, Antergos, ArchBang, Chakra. Almost always, Debian is the booting distro here. And I currently have one dual-boot setup, with Debian and Arch, where Debian's grub handles the booting.

I figure that I should be able to do the same sort of thing with Manjaro, if I tried. But it looks like there are some differences between my setups and yours that might mean that I'd be of no real help to you. For example, I don't think I've yet had a setup like what we're talking about on a machine with UEFI involved. So I'd have to try adding Manjaro to one of my UEFI computers that's currently home to only Debian Buster. And I really don't have enough interest in Manjaro to bother with doing an installation (sorry!). Also I wonder how things would differ with Linux Mint being the booting distro instead of Debian; several years have passed since I've had Mint installed here -- Linux Mint 9 ("Isadora") was the last release I ran!

Nothing against Mint (or Manjaro), but over time I've been leaning more towards "parent" distros. The installation and setup may be more difficult and time-consuming, but going with the "parent" distro seems to work out better for me over the long haul. I do keep Kubuntu LTS on one computer, but other than that I always seem to end up coming back to Debian and Arch.

I'm thinking that you'd probably be able to get it to work, if you really want to delve into it and pursue it. Although you did say earlier in the thread, "I just won't use it unless it will work in VM." Best of luck!

Just for information Purposes:

I have tried booting Manjaro with Mint 19, 19.2, Siduction Cinamon, Siduction LXQT, Debian Buster, and LXLE My primary OS is Mint 19.2 cinnamon. I multi boot several OS's. THis is the reson I ust a GPT partitioning I can have any number of Primary Partitions Instead of the 4 primary partition limitation. I can add or remove partitions without it effecting other OS's or partitions. To have GPT partitioning UEFI firmware (Bios) is a requirement. It is my understanding that Arch
And other arch distro's Grub loads Intel microcode before the OS, rather than inside the OS.

Quote

Manjaro will load intel-ucode using grub.
But it will load this separately (first) from /boot/intel-ucode.img
It is done automatically for you when you install or boot Manjaro (provided you use Manjaro’s bootloader (grub)


as you can see certain conditions have to be met in order for arch or a arch type distro to boot. Grub is different for arch. Yes you can boot arch with a Debian Grub as long as it is modified to provide what is needed to boot a arch type distro. Maybe Arch has changed it's boot loader in the past year. People have been having this problem for several years now with arch's boot manager. as long as you use the arch boot manager everthing is fine. but when multi booting like I do and always upgrading or replacing a different OS they alway use their own grub to boot all of the other OS's and that is when Manjaro won't boot anymore because it has to boot with its own grub or a grub modified to support the arch grub. I hope I've explained things so everyone can understand what is happening. The easy answer is to use manjaro's grub to boot everything which would be a real pain having to reinstall arch grub everytime a distro installs it's grub in the EFI.


I have to assume from what you say that you are using MBR (Master Boot Record) and MBR partitioning with 4 Primary Partitions and a Extended Partition with up to 16 Logical Partitions.


Thats why I use GPT partitioning Unlimited Partitions But Grub is placed in a /boot/efi partition with the esp flags set. The boot flag just indicates that the partion is intended to boot a system.


Edited by mhbell, 01 September 2019 - 02:54 PM.

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#19 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 02:36 PM

That is Manjaro, not Archlinux.  On Archlinux you can load ucode in the bootloader or after the system is booted.  https://wiki.archlin...e#Early_loading
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#20 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 03:01 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 01 September 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

That is Manjaro, not Archlinux.  On Archlinux you can load ucode in the bootloader or after the system is booted.  https://wiki.archlin...e#Early_loading
I have to ask you the following.
1. Are you using UEFI with GPT Partitioning?

2 Have you actually booted Arch with another Distro's grub while in a GPT partioning system with /boot/efi ?

I don't think you have, I think you are using MBR Partitoning. Correct me if I am wrong.
Mel
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#21 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 03:02 PM

I haven't used MBR for probably the last 10 years or more.

1. Yes, I am using GPT/UEFI with LUKS.
2. Yes, I have done that before. I set up a coworker's Debian install to dual boot with Archlinux last year on a new laptop with UEFI.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#22 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 03:07 PM

Personally I haven't dual booted in many years as I just spin up VMs or docker containers when I need them.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#23 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 06:01 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 01 September 2019 - 03:02 PM, said:

I haven't used MBR for probably the last 10 years or more.

1. Yes, I am using GPT/UEFI with LUKS.
2. Yes, I have done that before. I set up a coworker's Debian install to dual boot with Archlinux last year on a new laptop with UEFI.
OK I stand Corrected then. I guess I will have to install Arch to see for myself. May need your and some of the others help in doing so.
Mel
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#24 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 09:06 PM

View Postmhbell, on 01 September 2019 - 06:01 PM, said:

View Postsecuritybreach, on 01 September 2019 - 03:02 PM, said:

I haven't used MBR for probably the last 10 years or more.

1. Yes, I am using GPT/UEFI with LUKS.
2. Yes, I have done that before. I set up a coworker's Debian install to dual boot with Archlinux last year on a new laptop with UEFI.
OK I stand Corrected then. I guess I will have to install Arch to see for myself. May need your and some of the others help in doing so.
Mel

Sounds good :thumbsup:
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#25 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 01:40 PM

I dual boot Arch and W7 on a GPT UEFI set up. I use rEFind for booting which is kept on its own "boot" partition.

It finds automatically finds a UEFI loader if a usb stick with a live os is used, if the os has one, abd aby new found os's are shown on the boot menu. Once set up it is very easy to use.

:breakfast:
Install ARCH
You'll never need to install it again
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