Is MS admitting failure ? ?

[patio]

Article... patio.

[b2cm]

If I had the hardware that would run Vista well, I would switch from XP to Vista. I've played with it on a Dell Inspiron 6400 a few times and I think it's pretty good (the eye candy is annoying, though).The reason for Dell continuing to sell pre-installed XP is simple. It wants to sell older, cheaper hardware that is not Vista-ready. There are many who do not care if it is XP or Vista on the computer for as long as the computer is well within their budget and it can just the same run the software they use. If Dell thinks it could sell Linux or even Windows ME computers, it also would. That's business and because Dell is playing catchup to HP. It doesn't mean Dell cannot sell Vista computers; it wants to sell what it can to whomever it can. In China and in developing countries, it is mainly Vista vs. pirated XP and Vista. Using socialized pricing to minimize the use of bootleg Windows is not exactly proof that Windows is being dropped wholesale in favor of the Mac or Linux and so Microsoft is on its deathbed. In fact, many see this move as serving to strengthen the lock Windows have on users.

Edited April 22, 2007 by b2cm

[Mike1]

[Dropping the price] to minimize the use of bootleg Windows is not exactly proof that Windows is [in trouble].

Are you sure that is what the Beast of Redmond is doing, anyway?As I understood it, the deal will be for schools and other educational institutions specifically and will only come on new hardware. If I've remembered what I've read correctly, and this is indeed so, that will hardly "minimize the use of bootleg Windows", since the man in the street will still be using whatever is cheapest and will likely be running it on old hardware.What the deal is, presumably, aimed at doing is getting the children used to using Microsoft programs on the Microsoft platform. This would create familiarity, perhaps amounting to dependency, on certain interfaces, certain ways of doing things.Catch 'em young. Further on up the road, they may be able to afford to pay for Windows. It's rather like a drugs dealer hanging out by the school gates - and, actually, Bill Gates has explicitly used the language of addiction in the past, and even said he's not worried about illegal software copying if it promotes "addiction":

"Although about three million computers get sold every year in China, people don't pay for the software. Someday they will. As long as they're going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the future." - Bill Gates, July 1998

[Guitar Man]

The reason for Dell continuing to sell pre-installed XP is simple. It wants to sell older, cheaper hardware that is not Vista-ready. There are many who do not care if it is XP or Vista on the computer for as long as the computer is well within their budget and it can just the same run the software they use. If Dell thinks it could sell Linux or even Windows ME computers, it also would. That's business and because Dell is playing catchup to HP. It doesn't mean Dell cannot sell Vista computers; it wants to sell what it can to whomever it can.

Being the world's #1 computer manufacturer, Dell can do this. And they most likely have stockpiles of older, entry level systems they need to unload. They may look as though they're breaking away from the Vista bandwagon, but this is not so. A good PR move in the wake of negative Vista press ? Perhaps. Does this article clearly state that Microsoft is admitting failure or defeat ? I think not.

[epp_b]

ME #2! :hysterical:How did I not think of that?

Edited April 22, 2007 by epp_b

[tommyj12]

Microsoft has stated numerous times that piracy is rampant in China. That aside, they still invested millions into advertising Vista in that region. They even went so far so to place a huge ad on one of Shanghai's tallest buildings. The hope was that their improved piracy detection mechanisms would help them make it less of a problem than it was with XP. That's certainly not the case, with a mere 244 copies of Vista being sold in China in the two weeks following launch.Obviously, the $1 price tag for a copy on the streets is going to be very attractive, especially with the enormous price tags the more expensive versions of Vista carry. In the past, Microsoft has petitioned the Chinese Government to work with (or perhaps for) them to combat piracy.

If they can't sell it they might as well give it away. It makes them look good. And it does get the children hooked. 244 copies in all of China in two weeks! Tommy

[Gary]

When Dell runs out of the sub par machines they wiull drop Xp like a hot potato.

[epp_b]

If they can't sell it they might as well give it away. It makes them look good. And it does get the children hooked.

I believe that's known as the drug dealer's business model...

[Cluttermagnet]

WITH TWO OVERLAPPING events, Microsoft admitted what we have been saying all along, Vista, aka Windows Me Two (Me II), is a joke that no one wants.

Ahhh, no, I don't think so. Most are eventually going to migrate there or just buy new machines that have it. They just don't understand how bad it's gotten- DRM infestation, proprietary formats, missing drivers, etc. MS is too big to just go away like that, however. But it's a good thing if Dell has some older models to move out. The prices have got to get pretty good towards the end. And those who buy new XP machines now will be relatively better off for now. Personally, I wouldn't buy either OS.How much you want to bet that most of those 244 copies in China end up getting cracked? And copied. And peddled from street corners, etc. They specialize in pirating there.

[epp_b]

How much you want to bet that most of those 244 copies in China end up getting cracked? And copied. And peddled from street corners, etc. They specialize in pirating there

I think those 244 are the "master" copies

[tommyj12]

How much you want to bet that most of those 244 copies in China end up getting cracked? And copied. And peddled from street corners, etc. They specialize in pirating there.

And all that money and computer resources that fight against that will be for naught. Tommy Edited April 23, 2007 by tommyj12

[b2cm]

As I understood it, the deal will be for schools and other educational institutions specifically and will only come on new hardware. If I've remembered what I've read correctly, and this is indeed so, that will hardly "minimize the use of bootleg Windows", since the man in the street will still be using whatever is cheapest and will likely be running it on old hardware.What the deal is, presumably, aimed at doing is getting the children used to using Microsoft programs on the Microsoft platform. This would create familiarity, perhaps amounting to dependency, on certain interfaces, certain ways of doing things.Catch 'em young. Further on up the road, they may be able to afford to pay for Windows. It's rather like a drugs dealer hanging out by the school gates - and, actually, Bill Gates has explicitly used the language of addiction in the past, and even said he's not worried about illegal software copying if it promotes "addiction"

Well, people in developing countries cite the prohibitive, unrealistic pricing to justify the use of bootleg software. The pricing scheme is meant to dismantle that argument. Will it be effective? On the street, no. If Microsoft works with educational institutions, maybe. That should explain the highly structured, focused marketing of those affordable Windows. As for the lock on users, regardless of age and whether in or out of school, for as long as piracy is rampant that lock will just get stronger. Piracy makes software easily available and cheaply. Microsoft's program can only hope to achieve one thing: teach children respect for intellectual property. But that is tantamount to a new cultural revolution. Locks are more a product of secondary and anticipatory socialization than mechanical conditioning. You can kind of expect children and young people to prepare for or fit in by using Windows if that's the operating system in the desired workplace or recreation space.

When Dell runs out of the sub par machines they wiull drop Xp like a hot potato.

That's true. Obviously, they still have lots of desktop and notebooks with IGPs that are not Vista-ready. Why not sell these as hardware as for the 'mature XP' or 'open source' systems. You need to clear the inventory; you want to overtake HP in number of units sold. After all, there's enough negative press for Vista to make the scheme look credible and work. Dell is being imaginative and resourceful.

that article appeared to aggressively bash m$

I thought the writer is so obssessed with his 3-4 year old theory about the end of Microsoft, he would use anything to show the theory is still tenable 3-4 years past, never mind if the result amounts to a rambling non-sequitur. We read of people who proclaim the imminent end of the world (some very specific about the date), pointing to the 'signs of the times'. They can be annoying, but when you've seen many of them ... Had the writer instead speculated that Mr. Gates is a descendant of Mary Magdalene or has sexually-transmitted disease, it probably would have been a more welcome comic relief. Edited April 23, 2007 by b2cm

[goretsky]

Hello,I had throught that Dell used "just-in-time" like manufacturing to build each computer to customer spec, but I am wondering if they ended up with a surplus of motherboards with only two memory sockets, relatively poor-performing IGP cores and 256MB DIMMs for them. It is fairly well-understood that Microsoft Windows Vista is not going to perform so well on systems with integrated graphics processors and only 512MB of DRAM--especially if the IGP has to share memory with the system.Microsoft has stated that the report of their selling only 244 copies of Windows Vista in China is incorrect, according to this C|Net article. They do not give the actual sales figure, though.Regards,Aryeh Goretsky

[Guitar Man]

I had throught that Dell used "just-in-time" like manufacturing to build each computer to customer spec, but I am wondering if they ended up with a surplus of motherboards...

You would think so. Otherwise the inventory overhead associated with the sales figures this giant puts out, would be astronomical. So your MOBO overstock logic makes sense.

[daihard]

When Dell runs out of the sub par machines they wiull drop Xp like a hot potato.

Sub-par machines? They are perfectly capable of running XP but suddenly become "sub-par" because of Vista's new hardware requirements? Edited April 30, 2007 by daihard

[Guitar Man]

They are perfectly capable of running XP but suddenly become "sub-par" because of Vista's new hardware requirements?

That's what the big box stores will have you believe if you're foolish enough to get sucked into buying more than you really need for simple email to far-flung friends and relatives & googling for microwave recipes...

[b2cm]

A Pentium III-800 with 512mb RAM on an Intel i810 or SiS630 mobo can run Windows XP and the usual office and connectivity apps very well.

[daihard]

That's what the big box stores will have you believe if you're foolish enough to get sucked into buying more than you really need for simple email to far-flung friends and relatives & googling for microwave recipes...

No kidding. Well for simple e-mail and web browsing, Vista isn't really necessary now... is it?

[Guitar Man]

If you look at the surface, Vista isn't really necessary. Period. It's just prettier. XP's pretty enough for me, and can do anything I throw at it if because I have reasonable hardware to go with it.I'm past the point of needing the "latest & greatest" to perform my chores. And I don't have to deal with the DRM issues either. While it's not fair to compare the two, when I think of latest and greatest, it's going to be around the time my car lease runs out. At least I can travel (physically) with my wheels, and not have to worry about repairs and diagnostics, and where I can go, who I can see... A computer is a communications device. If I want to see pretty things, I hop into my car.

[b2cm]

The Quebec vista through his car's windows is a wow experience.

[Guitar Man]

The Quebec vista through his car's windows is a wow experience

Oui mon ami! In my travel experiences, the prettiest part of the province is the ride from Quebec City to La Malbaie (Murray Bay, as it was called in the past by the upper crust of WASP society visiting those parts by steamship), along highway 40 east, which runs along the St Lawrence river, then through the rolling hills of Les Eboulements and Baie St-Paul into Pointe-Au-Pic. It's an easy 4 hour drive from Montréal that will take your breath away.It's as beautiful as driving south west of the Blue Hills mountain range in West Virginia at sunset along Interstate 81 (Hi Fran!), but it's less boring because you see much more scenes closer up. Many local paintings has been made in those areas. You want a Luna theme in real life ? Take the trip. You won't forget it. Edited May 1, 2007 by Guitar Man

[Tushman]

When Dell runs out of the sub par machines they wiull drop Xp like a hot potato.

Bologne. Don't count on it. Dell has long been known for it's quality JIT inventory system. Unless most of their competitors (i.e. Gateway, Comcrap) the don't have stockpiles of parts just lying around. Their just-in-time inventory system has long been the envy of many of their competitors.Dell will continue to offer XP as long as there is a consumer demand for it.

[Gary]

Sub-par machines? They are perfectly capable of running XP but suddenly become "sub-par" because of Vista's new hardware requirements?

That is correct. When Dell sells all of the PC's that they have in stock that will not support Vista, they will once again sell Vista Based PC's. Why would Dell or HP or any other PC manufacturer sell a PC with an OS that it's hardware cannot support. Not too Many.

Bologne. Don't count on it. Dell has long been known for it's quality JIT inventory system. Unless most of their competitors (i.e. Gateway, Comcrap) the don't have stockpiles of parts just lying around. Their just-in-time inventory system has long been the envy of many of their competitors.Dell will continue to offer XP as long as there is a consumer demand for it.

Or when MS stops the release of Xp OEM's.

[Tushman]

Or when MS stops the release of Xp OEM's.

When do you think that will be? Surely no one has a crystal ball unless you happen to hold a key position in MS as an employee. Full support & development of XP will continue through April 2009 and it is not expected to be retired until 2014. This is all simple information you can verify on MS's website. XP is not going away anytime soon. Edited May 10, 2007 by Tushman

[goretsky]

Hello,According to this Windows Life-Cycle Policy page on Microsoft's web site, Microsoft Windows XP OEM licenses will cease to be available on January 31, 2008 and System Builder licenses on January 31, 2009.Regards,Aryeh Goretsky

[b2cm]

Vista graphics controller requirements make a lot of home/office-type motherboard inventory everywhere 'old'. The Vista-ready IGPs were launched by Via, SiS and AMD-ATI only recently.

[b2cm]

Ha ha ha. I remember that time. My computer only had 4mb of FPMs, a 256k Orchid video card and a 240mb hard disk---overkill for DOS and Win 3.1 but so inadequate for Win95.

[Ryan]

I don't understand why Vista is being referred to as Windows Me II!? Is this just the opinion of one Vista hating individual or is this more widespread?

[goretsky]

Hello,I think I first saw Microsoft Windows Vista referred to as "Windows Millennium Edition II" by a journalist in one of Ziff-Davis' blogs. One reason for saying things like that is because it does sells magazines, or, in this case, web site page views. Windows Me has suffered from an image problem: It has been picked on widely because of the perception of it having minimal-to-no advantage over the previous home (desktop) operating system, Microsoft Windows 98SE, and having a poorly-implemented system restore features and an inability to easily start the computer in DOS mode. Some people felt that Windows Me was not a new operating system, per se, but an incremental releaese that should have been treated as a service pack, service release or new edition of Windows 98 and called "Microsoft Windows 98 Third Edition."In any case, Windows Me was out for slightly more than a year before Microsoft Windows XP was released, so the window of opportunity for it to establish a large user base was slammed shut rather quickly. Windows XP, released thirteen months after Me, went on to become quite a successful operating system for Microsoft in terms of market penetration and revenue. In part, this has been one of the challenges facing Windows Vista: Because Windows XP has been so successful, the follow-on product was expected to be some kind of tour-de-force operating system that not only fixed all the outstanding issues of the previous one, but introduced no new issues as well. The delay in releasing Windows Vista magnified attention on it, so dropped features, performance and reliability of pre-release code, security features, anti-piracy and DRM technologies have placed the product under a magnifying lens, and as is often the case, small cracks appear to be giant flaws. That is not to trivialize Vista's problems: The operating system does have issues, and those need to be addressed. I, however, expect that Microsoft will correct many--not all, but many--of the issues preventing adoption of Windows Vista. Now, Microsoft will probably not fix them in the order and speed which every customer wants, and, for that matter, probably not in the fashion everyone wants them fixed, but I believe Microsoft will fix things, simply because it is in their interest to do so.One whole set of issues that is only partially under Microsoft's influence is the availability of software and of hardware that works with Windows Vista (I wrote a long comment about that in someone else's blog, so rather than repeat it, I will refer you to the blog entry here.).From my own perspective, I try not just to purchase fairly mainstream hardware but I also try to time my purchases so that the components I have selected will have readily-available device drivers which, if not tuned for performance, are, at least, very stable. Quite a few of the problems people have reported have been not with Windows Vista per se, but with third-party device drivers (lack of availability, stability and/or performance issues and so forth). I have been fairly fortunate in that regard, especially as an early-adopter of the technology. Is it fair to blame Microsoft for these issues? To a small degree, perhaps, but Microsoft can only provide so much developer support and sample code and tools to create, debug, test, validate and re-verify device drivers in so much time before an operating system has to ship. I suspect more people would be up in arms if Microsoft were to completely take over all device driver development efforts.There is a similar problem on the software side of the equation: A new operating system presupposes new software from ISVs, and the lack of a "killer app" or technology is one thing which is holding back wider adoption of Windows Vista. Office 2007 offers some genuine improvements over previous versions, but it also runs under older operatng systems. I think many people do not upgrade to a new operating system because it is available; they upgrade because there is something they would like to do which cannot be done with their current operating environment. Right now, it is not clear to many who feel that way what the "killer something" is that they can do under Windows Vista but not under Windows XP. I expect that to change as time goes on and more hardware and software becomes available for Windows Vista.In all honesty, I do not see too much difference between the type of complaints about Windows Vista and complaints about previous Windows operating systems when they were introduced (costs too much, performs slowly, no ISV or IHV support, requires expensive hardware, et cetera). Some of them are new, but not all. It has just been so long since a a new operating system has appeared that many people have forgotten or trivialized the "postpartum depression" they had with its birth.Regards,Aryeh Goretsky

[Guest LilBambi]

I would agree, people can't blame Microsoft for all of these software and driver issues entirely, however, we can say that Microsoft was not thinking of their customers when they released a product that did not have reliable (and that's key) driver support for at least existing hardware and that the drivers be fully supported ... at least from a certain point forwardfor video cards that they said would work (sure they worked 'generally' but not for everything, specifically for gamers. But there is no reason a printer or scanner should not work fully. These are not video and audio pathways -- things that we came to realize would be affected by DRM (digital rights management). And many mainstream printers as well as other hardware, and mainstream software packages (like several problems that may or may not be fixed in Quicken and QuickBooks) in Vista.And you can say that it is the software and hardware people who are the road block there, but from what I am hearing from developers, Vista is a pain in the kiester to develop for, particularly with major software packages, and hardware drivers not only because of digital rights management, but also because of the major changes even at the last minute for Vista before going out the door.This is in part why many have decided to stay with Windows XP rather than move over to Vista. The thing I blame Microsoft for is that this product despite all the years of development was still not ready for prime time AND that people are still being forced by most OEMs (at least for Home Users and I assume at the prodding of Microsoft so they can make money on it) to move to users to Vista when buying new computers whether it works for them or not. One could also say that although they made a push to draw in gamers specifically, they were NOT at all ready for gamers particularly in regard to video card drivers (and I am talking about video drivers from big gaming video card manufacturers like nVidia and ATI) and these are for gamers' high end machines that were generally speaking Vista Ultimate ready! And I am not talking about a little balking in the video or sound, which would be annoying enough, but outright crashing of the video driver and sometimes sound problems ... presumably some glitch in their DRM handling, or what?!I would also say you can blame Microsoft for their ludicrous 3-4 hr upgrade process from Vista Home Premium to Vista Ultimate on a brand new Sony laptop as well. But then like all the hardware and software people before them, they would likely say that's Sony's fault.I have never seen an 'upgrade' take so long in my life especially when everything was right on the hard drive, not being pulled from the DVD drive!In fairness, the upgrade did move ALL settings including Wireless encryption keys etc., all programs including crappy Norton, all Sony laptop drivers (all except for HDAudio which it got online or locally on the first boot when prompted to do so).And that was only going from Home Premium to Ultimate! 3-4 hrs??! Wow!I only bring these things up because I have talked to many folks and read online while trying to find answers for them and many others who have bought new computers and laptops that have had a devil of a time getting some of their stuff to work with it and some of those software packages and hardware items such as printers were pretty expensive, or pretty new. And the worst part is that in some cases, things like certain relatively new HP printers might work generically for printing but not work for things like printing a single check in Quicken 2006 ... go figure. But then again, I guess that's Intuit's fault in that particular case...and with their recent fiasco with Adobe upgrades and crashing and not even being able to do some reports on some computers, I wouldn't put it past Intuit. They seem to be all about the money without caring so much about their customers who have paid through the nose for software that now doesn't do what it is supposed to do. Sad...But I digress, there are definitely times when Windows Vista seems very much like Windows Millennium II.