Zany Netizens *Still* Insisting On Fair Use

[Cluttermagnet]

Microsoft To Issue Fix For DRM Stripper App Mild amusement here. I don't buy this crap. Never have, never will.The three blind men will each see this elephant differently, depending on which part of the elephant they are touching at the moment.Clutter sees a large, magnificent beast in shackles, and sheds tears...

[ross549]

I figured it would not take long until it was patched. I also do not think it will be long before it is cracked again.Yet Another Reason© to not buy music with DRM.

[Guest LilBambi]

Exactly, Adam.There are many Independent Artists who do not hold with the DRM and many artists in general who have allowed their music and/or spoken word to be made available through places like eMusic in non-DRM'd format so people can truly purchase tracks rather than rent them.

[teacher]

Microsoft To Issue Fix For DRM Stripper App Mild amusement here. I don't buy this crap. Never have, never will.The three blind men will each see this elephant differently, depending on which part of the elephant they are touching at the moment.Clutter sees a large, magnificent beast in shackles, and sheds tears...

It is so sorry that you were short on words? That is one of your shortest posts!I hate DRM! I don't even download music or DVDs but I still hate it!

[epp_b]

i was informed in atl that it is ==get this== illegal (!!) to play a dvd, any dvd, in linux as it breaks the ms windows drm licensing carp.

Amazing what how little can be accomplished when several stupid politicians get together to do nothing....

[Cluttermagnet]

It is so sorry that you were short on words? That is one of your shortest posts!I hate DRM! I don't even download music or DVDs but I still hate it!

Thanks, teacher. I'm going to interpret that as praise? Heh! Clutter loves metaphor. ;)And nature abhors a vacuum. That's why we get so much clutter.

[Guest LilBambi]

Yes, Clutter's disertations are always fun to read, enlightening and heart felt. :thumbsup:Great to see you Clutter!

[teacher]

Thanks, teacher. I'm going to interpret that as praise?

Definitely. Ditto what Bambi said.

[daihard]

unfortunately, you don't have to download to suffer.i was informed in atl that it is ==get this== illegal (!!) to play a dvd, any dvd, in linux as it breaks the ms windows drm licensing carp.

How so? Does any commercial DVD have a Microsoft DRM protection built-in? If you're talking about DeCSS, it is illegal to distribute it in the U.S. because of the stupid DRMA (or was it DMRA?), but I don't think it is illegal to simply use it yourself.

[ross549]

It is the DCMA you were thinking of, which makes it illegal to circumvent any form of copy protection.It is techinically in violation of the DCMA to watch DVDs in linux, because libdvdcss2 use an implementation of DeCSS.:(Adam

[Dard]

"That is why we designed the Windows Media DRM system to be renewable, so that if such events occur the system can be refreshed to address them. End users are not at risk due to this circumvention. This circumvention is against [Windows Media] DRM content."

I had to come back and post this later, when I read that "end users are not at risk" part.I laughed so hard that tears were blurring up my vision to the point that I could not see my monitor clearly enough to type up a responce. My sides are still aching.DRM = Defective by design.

[Cluttermagnet]

unfortunately, you don't have to download to suffer.i was informed in atl that it is ==get this== illegal (!!) to play a dvd, any dvd, in linux as it breaks the ms windows drm licensing carp. sorry, stuff like that gets me a bit steamed.

Clutter, who is still running 98SE machines, is also glad to keep using CDR's for occasional backups and skip the entire DVD thing. I don't believe there is even a single DVD (disk) anywhere under this roof. I may have a single combo CD/DVD drive in an out of service computer (customer junker) somewhere around here, but have never bothered to install it and try it. No need. Hollywood's output is mainly trash, anyway. I don't download videos or (so far) Linux distros. Clutter is a slooooow adoptor, especially when there are traps and snares (DRM). Oh, maybe I could use DVD's to good advantage for holding hard drive images in single chunks instead of spanning over multiple CD's. Naaaaah, never mind. It's just too much bother. Sell me something but it's not mine? Yeah, right. Like that'll happen...Hard drives are cheap enough to justify squirreling away images or OS clones on a separate physical drive 'just in case'. Who needs DVD's or their just released, new fangled descendents?

[Marsden11]

Sure, just throw the baby out with the bath water...

Edited August 30, 2006 by Marsden11

[Guest LilBambi]

I had to come back and post this later, when I read that "end users are not at risk" part.I laughed so hard that tears were blurring up my vision to the point that I could not see my monitor clearly enough to type up a responce. My sides are still aching.DRM = Defective by design.

I felt the same way when I read that.

[daihard]

It is the DMCA you were thinking of, which makes it illegal to circumvent any form of copy protection.It is techinically in violation of the DMCA to watch DVDs in linux, because libdvdcss2 use an implementation of DeCSS.

As I understand it, the DMCA (that's what I meant, thank you) prohibits the publication/distribution of tools like DeCSS, but it does not make it illegal to use them in your privacy. Besides, DeCSS does not circumvent copy protection. It simply decrypts the region control code if I understand it correctly. Edited August 31, 2006 by daihard

[ross549]

DeCSS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decss;)Adam

[ross549]

Basically, so we do not buy DVDs produced in China, since they are cheaper there.

[epp_b]

Region encoding is a pseudo, make-believe "law" that the media industry invented under the mask of the DMCA to enforce their continual racketeering. There is no copyright statute that gives an author or holder permission to dictate where someone is allowed to enjoy his or her copyrighted works. Yet, because of the DMCA, it becomes "law" without any accountability or debate. No matter what the purpose of putting a lock on digital media -- whether it be to enforce specific copyright laws or to rip off consumers from their honest, non-infringing fair use -- it's still illegal to break it. They could put locks on a digital song to disallow playing it more than X number of times, and there would be no legal way to play it anymore times than you're "allowed". Even though this would be a most basic fair-use, the DMCA gives this kind of power to already-too-powerful corporations to rip your rights away as much as they please without any ramifications.[/rant]

Edited August 31, 2006 by epp_b

[daihard]

DeCSS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decss

In the Wikipedia page you quoted is this paragraph:

In protest against legislation that prohibits publication of DeCSS code in countries that implement the WIPO Copyright Treaty (such as the United States' Digital Millennium Copyright Act)...

It says "publication" of DeCSS, not "possession."Also, the article clearly says DeCSS "decrypts" the CSS encryption algorithm. What DeCSS does is let you copy a region-controlled DVD as if it were a region-free DVD, which is quite different than circumventing a copy protection.

[Guest LilBambi]

The very first sentence on the wikipedia page:

DeCSS is a computer program capable of decrypting content on a DVD video disc encrypted using the Content-Scrambling System (CSS).

[daihard]

The very first sentence on the wikipedia page:

Exactly. Besides, I don't even think the CSS scheme encrypts the entire content of the DVD.

[ross549]

if the video itself was not scrambled, then all you would have to do is copy the VOB files off the disc to make a copy, which is obviously not the case.

[ross549]

Well, if you want an unencrypted backup, you have to get the files off the disc and run them through a decryption tool. They can then be re-burned. However, under the terms of the DCMA, this is illegal.

[daihard]

Well, if you want an unencrypted backup, you have to get the files off the disc and run them through a decryption tool. They can then be re-burned. However, under the terms of the DCMA, this is illegal.

The sticking point here, IMO, is what CSS is meant to be. As far as I know, CSS is an ecryption technology used to control the region-specific distribution of commercial DVDs. Add to that the reference in Wikipedia that says "lossless digital image copying of DVDs without decrypting them was already widespread before DeCSS, especially in East Asia." If a copy protection for a medium does not need to be cracked in order to copy the medium, it probably doesn't serve as a copy protection.I can buy your argument that using DeCSS to copy an encrypted DVD may be illegal under the DMCA. However, I still maintain that using DeCSS to simply watch an encrypted DVD is not a violation of DMCA, on the ground that the nature of CSS is encryption (i.e. region control), not copy protection.I'd certainly like to hear the opinions of legal experts on this. I hope I'm in the right... Edited September 6, 2006 by daihard

[Guest LilBambi]

Hi daihard ... They really are trying to say that even playing DVDs on Linux is illegal....based on the DMCA. It's not the first 'fair use' that's been taken from American Citizens ... and apparently won't be the last.Hope it's better in your country. And hopefully, Canada can do a better job than the US did for their Citizens ... since they currently have that opportunity.

[daihard]

Hi daihard ... They really are trying to say that even playing DVDs on Linux is illegal....based on the DMCA. It's not the first 'fair use' that's been taken from American Citizens ... and apparently won't be the last.

That's certainly sad news. Being able to watch the DVD you own is even more fundamental than "fair use," isn't it? That's something you're supposed to be able to do without hindrance.

Hope it's better in your country. And hopefully, Canada can do a better job than the US did for their Citizens ... since they currently have that opportunity.

I have no idea how the laws in Japan treat DeCSS. Given that the current prime minister is the puppet of the U.S., I don't see how the situation is any better over there, though. Edited September 6, 2006 by daihard

[epp_b]

One of the main problems with the DMCA is that it doesn't leave any exceptions for fair use. You can't even break the "locks" even if the purpose for doing so is entirely for your legally instituted fair use rights.

[Guest LilBambi]

Here's an article that kinda lays out what they are trying to say pretty well:A Fully Licensed, DMCA Compliant DVD Player for Linuxhttp://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2006/...a_complian.html

First, like it or not, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is the law of the land in the United States. There are a handful of other countries with similar laws. You can consider it unjust and stupid all you like but so far it has been thoroughly resistant to court challenges. You can break the law all you like and call it “civil disobedience” but you still leave yourself open to legal action if caught. I sure as heck am not going to walk into a client’s office proudly displaying illegal software on my desktop. Thanks, but no thanks.

More in the article including how TurboLinux has partnered with CyberLink (makers of PowerDVD).As a counterpoint, a response to similar thinking at TechLiberation.com:On Linux DVD Playershttp://www.techliberation.com/archives/038757.php

I want to start by stepping back for a bit of perspective. In my paper, I claimed there were no Linux software DVD players. It turns out that isn’t true. There appear to be two DVD-playing programs for desktop Linux operating systems: One for the Linspire version of Linux, and the other for TurboLinux. (She also mentions LinDVD, which is designed for proprietary set-top boxes, not general-purpose computers, which was what I was talking about the in the paper)Now, what’s striking about these two players is that each is a proprietary player tied to a relatively obscure Linux distribution. As near as I can tell (Linspire’s DVD player doesn’t list system requirements) these players will only work with their respective versions of Linux. If you are a user of any of the dozens of other distros—including more popular ones such as SUSE, Debian, Red Hat, or Ubuntu—you’re out of luck.So while it’s not true that there are no legel DVD players for Linux, it appears to be the case that the vast majority of Linux users don’t have a legal option for playing DVDs on their computers. More to the point, it’s definitely true that there are no legal open source DVD players, on Linux or any other platform.

More in the article.The response TechLiberation.com was making above was to IPcentral Weblog: Errors and Etiquette, Part Two: The End:http://weblog.ipcentral.info/archives/2006...s_and_etiq.html

I've decided not to beat this particular horse (that is, Cato's DMCA paper) any longer after today, especially as it is not quite dead. (Note to my SPCA friends and colleagues--it's just an analogy!) So just to sum up a few more problems, briefly, and then to make some kind of larger point, then, the end.More problems in brief:The Cato paper implies that Blackboard obtained an injunction against students seeking to present security research by "citing" the DMCA. A letter sent to the students mentions the DMCA, but the injunction was based on federal and Georgia anti-hacking statutes and trade secret law. Describing this case as involving "research" is problematic, although technical ingenuity certainly came into play, it seems to fit in the same class as the sort of ingenuity that racoons display in prying open trash cans. The Blackboard case arose when the students forcibly dismantled a debit card reader used by colleges and determined how to signal it. Very clever indeed. But it seems to me that the story loses some of its force as a horror story once one knows the details, and indeed throws doubt, perhaps deservedly, perhaps not, on other anecdotes related in this area.

More in the article.There are many articles that are trying to lay out to the public that even watching DVDs in Linux is illegal and responses to those articles in the following Google search results:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=w...G=Google+SearchMore on CyberLink's PowerCinema for Linux through press releases in these Google Search results:http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=...amp;btnG=Search

[ross549]

daihard....I hope that you do not think that I am in favor of the DCMA. I am strongly against it. In this thread, I was simply repeating what the DCMA-happy folks and execs would want you to beleive. The scope of what the DCMA provides for those people is simply unbeleivable.I am in strong favor of Fair Use. I do not beleive that ripping my CDs onto my computer and placing them on multiple MP3 players is a crime, as long as it is for my personal use.I know that when the time in my life comes where I have a family (especially with small children), I know I will not want to let the kids use the original DVDs that I purchase. I will want to make copies so they can destroy those. However, this is also considered illegal under the DCMA. *sigh*Adam

[Guest LilBambi]

I hope no one would think I am in favor of more restrictions either ... I am for citizens being free to do what they want with what they buy in a fair use personal way.The DMCA is a blight on the US .. strips Citizens of their fair use, stifles innovation, and much more.Unfortunately other countries have allowed that cancerous thinking to take hold in their countries as well.They haven't learned from the bad job the US did on that score.