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#1 OFFLINE   sunrat

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 08:32 PM

Breaking news!

I Can't Believe I'm Writing This Linux Article About Loving The Xfce Desktop Environment

He discovers he likes Manjaro Xfce but has to customise it to look like a hybrid of MX and MacOS. I'm not a fan of top panels myself, but it's good to see Xfce becoming a major DE now.
A current poll at Debian User Forums shows Xfce to be the preferred desktop so far, way ahead of the default Gnome.
I'm still KDE though. ;) I like Xfce mainly but there's a couple of niggles I can't stand.
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#2 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:18 PM

Well it's neat that Forbes covered it anyway.  Neat story, thanks :thumbsup:
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#3 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:11 AM

Yes. I've been an Xfce user and fan for quite a few years (since KDE went beyond v3.5). Left the bloat, the pecan (or almond or whatever the h3ll that thing in the upper corner of KDE 4 was) and all that carp behind. Never regretted it. I didn't even lose out on anything because I still have access to all my fav KDE apps within Xfce, so... YAY!

As for Gnome... well, Gnome was my first experience with desktop management in Linux (Ubuntu 6.06). I liked Gnome back then; nowadays, not so much. It became a bloated, complicated mess like KDE did (my opinion). I like things that are simple and just work. That's probably why Slackware is my primary OS.

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#4 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:16 AM

I am with you... I haven't used KDE since 3.x and Gnome since 2.x
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#5 OFFLINE   ebrke

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 05:07 PM

I agree--started using xfce because I use older hardware but I prefer it now.

#6 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 06:29 PM

I am also an Xfce fan for both Arch and the excellent MX Linux distro.
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#7 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:27 PM

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#8 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 08:28 AM

I've always known I'm in the minority on this one, but I'm not a fan of XFCE.  I don't dis-like it; in fact, I've used it on Ubuntu Studio and everything was fine.  But every reason I hear to consider XFCE just leads me to a different desktop that does that thing better....at least IMO.  Maybe that's the reason to use XFCE...it's 2nd best at nearly everything and if you're keeping score like a Linux Format Roundup, it takes the podium for that reason?

The most popular reason I hear is the low resource usage.  But that criteria lead me to LXDE, which is even lower.  Not to mention, I love the modularity of LXDE...they provide the basic DE and related apps, while you select the specific apps you want.  I'm a HUGE fan of LXDE, although it's undergoing huge changes right now and morphing into LXQt.  I like what they're doing, and so far so good, but it's a work in progress...and even though they're committed to the concept of modularity, who knows what the final resource usage will look like?

But I've digressed...this isn't an LXDE/Qt fanboi thread...and I'm not here to bash XFCE.  I'm only here to say "I don't get it"; which is also fine, as I'm not using YOUR systems, LOL.  But speaking of modularity, I do prefer some XFCE apps, like Xfburn.  And I like the Whisker Menu.  I often see LXDE menu threads where the preferred solution is to use the XFCE panels (rather than Lxpanels) and install the Whisker menu as a plugin.  Clever, IMO, as this solution is invisible to the user and non-invasive to the system...no convoluted hacking of config files...a newbie can do it!  And I also know that LXDE borrows a lot of elements from XFCE, like power management, Xfburn, etc...  So I do like that XFCE elements incorporate seamlessly into my preferred LXDE desktops!  o:)

#9 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 09:08 AM

Well like you mentioned, it is all about preference. Personally, I only use tiling WMs and think of DEs as being useless bloat.

We all have our opinions. Can you imagine how crappy the world would be if we all thought the same way... B)
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#10 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 11:39 AM

I like WM environments too, but I like mine stacking.  I could function perfectly fine in naked OpenBox, FluxBox or PekWM.  For awhile, that's exactly what I was doing.  But then I realized I was autostarting several LXDE components and started to realize that I might as well use LXDE and "pare it back" rather than a WM and "beef it up".  LXDE truly was (is?) the sweet spot for me.  I can only hope that LXQt will become a worthy replacement.

I agree wholeheartedly with your post #9 ^.  We don't have to imagine that crappy world...it's called Windows!

MS:  "you vill use da vindows and you vill LIKE it!"
User:  "but, it sucks..."
MS:  "you vill use da vindows and you vill LEARN to like it!"

There are so many things that I like about linux.  So many that I can't really understand how MS became the de facto OS of choice for the overwhelming majority of users.  But out of all the things I like about linux, I can honestly say that my favorite is the multitude of choices for desktop environment/appearances.  If there are 100 different DEs, WMs, and/or combination of DE/WMs and you put out a poll to 100 linux users, you'll probably get about 30-40 different responses as to what their favorite/best is?!  And they would ALL be right about it, for the reason(s) they cited!

Edited by Hedon James, 19 April 2019 - 11:43 AM.


#11 OFFLINE   ebrke

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 03:26 PM

Quote

There are so many things that I like about linux.  So many that I can't really understand how MS became the de facto OS of choice for the overwhelming majority of users.  
I think that a lot of it was that so many of us who were not on the real cutting edge came to the "new" world of microcomputers through our jobs. While I knew a whole group of people who vowed that OS/2 would be pried from their cold, dead hands, MS Windows became ubiquitous pretty quickly in office environments, and people stayed with what they were familiar with when they eventually started purchasing their own hardware. And, of course, there was the fact that windows was preinstalled on anything they were offered in the retail market. I didn't think about any o/s but windows until early 2000's when I was dismayed about what I thought were looming privacy problems with WinXP.

Edited by ebrke, 19 April 2019 - 03:32 PM.


#12 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 05:09 PM

View Postebrke, on 19 April 2019 - 03:26 PM, said:

Quote

There are so many things that I like about linux.  So many that I can't really understand how MS became the de facto OS of choice for the overwhelming majority of users.  
I think that a lot of it was that so many of us who were not on the real cutting edge came to the "new" world of microcomputers through our jobs. While I knew a whole group of people who vowed that OS/2 would be pried from their cold, dead hands, MS Windows became ubiquitous pretty quickly in office environments, and people stayed with what they were familiar with when they eventually started purchasing their own hardware. And, of course, there was the fact that windows was preinstalled on anything they were offered in the retail market. I didn't think about any o/s but windows until early 2000's when I was dismayed about what I thought were looming privacy problems with WinXP.

I hear you on all counts, and agree.  I was smack in the middle of this in the early 90s, when I was a purchasing manager for a small third-party insurance administrator.  Our systems were Unix-based, company wide, and no one had a mouse (yet?).  The IT department started making noises about Windows in their department and started to demo a workstation.  It was the latest & greatest, and the IT guys started showing up ON TIME, then EARLY, as 1st one in got that seat.  But it was buggy and crashed a lot, as opposed to the Unix mainframe, which never went offline unless we wanted it to.  Eventually Windows was on every machine.  I remember Windows 3.0 was a big deal, but required several point releases before it calmed down a little.  Windows95 was the first "good" version I remember.

But market economics of capitalism dictate that the BEST product at the BEST price wins the most demand.  Windows was neither.  People were paying a premium for a crappy product, and still are IMO.  Back in the early 90s through early 2000s, I can maybe understand, as there were no viable alternative competitors.  But starting in the early 2000s, that equation started to change.  Linux was a better product (and still is) at a better price (can't be less $ than "free").  MS hasn't had their run due to technical prowess or sound business practices.  Their market dominance is almost 100% attributable to the perfect storm of an emerging market, with no competitors for an extended period, such that their "lead" was insurmountable.

Very similar to the emergent markets of cell phone OSes.  Google and Apple were the 1st contestants, with Windows a late entry, and a whole host of other OSes (poor Blackberry!).  Google has obviously won the lion's market share, and Apple has done okay (they could rule the world if they weren't so D*** greedy, and they never seem to learn from that).  But if MS couldn't get enough of a foothold in that market, with the capital at their disposal and access to some of the best developers in the world, not to mention exclusive access to proprietary desktop systems that phones initially needed to "sync" with, that should tell you all you need to know.  Linux doesn't stand a chance in that arena, although I guess you could argue Android is Linux.

It's taken longer than I thought, but the market is slowly turning on MS.  Desktops are becoming less common, because desktops are for PRODUCTION; but most folks use computers as consumers, which is why cell phones and tablets became so widespread.  And with the prevalence of those mobile devices, and mobile OSes, an ecosystem is emerging to interface with desktops, rather than the other way around.  Linux market share is growing exponentially (although still quite small), with ChromeOS and iOS taking big bites out of MS.  I don't know when it will happen, but I believe someday Windows will likely become as irrelevant as OS2.  JMO...

#13 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 05:34 PM

While I agree with mostly everything you said, there are a couple of things that I could nitpick about...

View PostHedon James, on 19 April 2019 - 05:09 PM, said:

Google and Apple were the 1st contestants, with Windows a late entry, and a whole host of other OSes (poor Blackberry!).

Blackberry was around long before Apple and Google produced a phone and they are still around (albeit using Android as the OS). Their OS is not around anymore but it wasn't designed for the smartphone devices anyway and since they were so worried about keeping their foothold in the business market, that they were overtaken by Google and Apple. Microsoft was in the right place to take over the smartphone market but they didn't think that it would take off. The same thing happened with Blockbuster, they didn't think streaming would take off and look at them now...

View PostHedon James, on 19 April 2019 - 05:09 PM, said:

Linux market share is growing exponentially (although still quite small), with ChromeOS and iOS taking big bites out of MS.

Actually Linux dominates every electronic market except for the desktop. All of the top 500 super computers run linux..99% of smart appliances run linux...your cable boxes (DVRs) are running an embedded linux.. if you have a smart tv, it is running linux... if you have a new car with an entertainment/navigational system,  it runs linux... the military uses linux on most all of their equipment... etc. etc. etc.

Remember, Linux is really just the kernel anyway.. B)
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#14 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 05:54 PM

It's hard for Linux to take off on the desktop side of things because of it's greatest strength, the choices out there. There is no standard Linux desktop environment to mass market and that is a good thing. It would take a distro/company with the mass of Redhat to put Linux on the desktop and they are in it for the enterprise support model.

Even the most popular distros do not have the funding to try to take on the desktop market. It would take a company like Amazon to mass market a linux computer for it to actually work. Microsoft and Apple started out small in a new market and grew over the years. Linux would have to change direction and developers would have to agree on one environment to throw their development at. That's not going to happen..

I do not think there will ever be a "year of the linux desktop" but Linux will have the market share. Microsoft already incorporates Linux into their products, services and development of Windows it self. Eventually we will be back to dumb terminals as everything is becoming more and more cloud based. We are already starting to see the shift. Chromebooks are super popular and they usually come with a low end cpu with not a lot of memory but it doesn't matter as everything is web based anyway.

There will be hardware out there for the enthusiasts but most people will not need a whole computer. You can already see where it is going. Most people's computer is their phone or tablet.

Once the network is fast enough for real cloud computing, we will be back to dumb terminals with peripherals attached.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#15 OFFLINE   sunrat

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 08:04 PM

Every year is "year of the linux desktop".
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#16 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 08:42 PM

View Postsunrat, on 19 April 2019 - 08:04 PM, said:

Every year is "year of the linux desktop".

It is for me. :)
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#17 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 11:24 PM

Re: Xfce, I think it's great, but I also enjoy using GNOME Shell, KDE Plasma, Openbox, and Fluxbox. LXDE is nice, too, but perhaps it won't be around much longer. I haven't tried LXQt yet. I can't honestly say that I have a favorite -- at times, it seems that my favorite is the one I happen to be logged into on a given day. Not sure that I'll ever be one to commit to and use only DE or WM.

#18 OFFLINE   crp

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 12:47 PM

too much revisionist history, some of it just flat out wrong. But getting to Xfce, sometimes standing still is the correct thing to do. They haven't updated the core for four years, which i wish KDE would have done (by creating a " don't touch" fork) with it's version3.

And years ago i wondered why they didn't come out with a version for MSFT-Windows. but i can't come up with any Linux project that was migrated to MSFT-Windows. But not even a version for MacOS?
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#19 OFFLINE   sunrat

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 08:46 PM

View Postcrp, on 25 April 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

too much revisionist history, some of it just flat out wrong. But getting to Xfce, sometimes standing still is the correct thing to do. They haven't updated the core for four years, which i wish KDE would have done (by creating a " don't touch" fork) with it's version3.
There is a kind of "don't touch" KDE3 fork in Trinity Desktop.
I'm very glad they didn't stop there though. KDE4 was a bit meh but usable once it matured. KDE Plasma 5 continues to amaze me especially since about version 5.10. It imparts an undefinable warm glow that doesn't happen in any other DE. ;) B)
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#20 OFFLINE   crp

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 02:30 PM

View Postsunrat, on 26 April 2019 - 08:46 PM, said:

View Postcrp, on 25 April 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

too much revisionist history, some of it just flat out wrong. But getting to Xfce, sometimes standing still is the correct thing to do. They haven't updated the core for four years, which i wish KDE would have done (by creating a " don't touch" fork) with it's version3.
There is a kind of "don't touch" KDE3 fork in Trinity Desktop.
I'm very glad they didn't stop there though. KDE4 was a bit meh but usable once it matured. KDE Plasma 5 continues to amaze me especially since about version 5.10. It imparts an undefinable warm glow that doesn't happen in any other DE. ;) B)
"usable" is not exactly a high bar and I notice you didn't say the same about KDE5 :)
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. ~C. S. Lewis

#21 ONLINE   wa4chq

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 08:07 AM

Xfce is OK, I really don't like KDE Plasma....prefer tiling window managers, using I3.  Years ago I really liked Fluxbox.  I'd spend ages getting the colors and layout just right.....it's really about the colors.

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#22 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 07:38 PM

Yesssss... it's all about the colors, man. Oh, and the music. ;)

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#23 ONLINE   wa4chq

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 09:13 AM

ummm....yeah....... that's what I'm talking about :blink2:.....  I remember seeing that ^^^ at Spencers Gifts, in the Black-Light poster section...

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#24 ONLINE   wa4chq

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 09:20 AM

Old Fluxbox....my colors don't do well in black-light

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#25 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 11:38 AM

View Postwa4chq, on 02 May 2019 - 09:13 AM, said:

ummm....yeah....... that's what I'm talking about :blink2:.....  I remember seeing that ^^^ at Spencers Gifts, in the Black-Light poster section...

HAHAHA! Spencer's Gifts.... that brings back some memories trolling the mall when I was 13 years old. Spencer's was a fav hangout for the pothead crowd, of which I was a certified member at that time. ;)
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