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when xp is unsupported, i plan to...


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when xp is no longer supported, i plan to...

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#26 OFFLINE   ross549

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:44 AM

:blink:

That's impressive. Why was Windows 95 dropped?

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#27 OFFLINE   lewmur

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 10:27 AM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 05 April 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

XP will ALWAYS be supported! MS will never abandon the millions of commercial users world wide. They have cried wolf about ending XP support numerous times already.

Well, sounds good, anyway. ;)
They might continue patching serious vulnerabilities but the real problem will be that they will no longer activate re-installs.  If you can't do a fresh install to get clean up the system, you in deep doo doo. :'(

#28 OFFLINE   goretsky

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:25 AM

Hello,

There were several inter-related reasons for dropping Windows 95 support (by the way, this also includes Windows 98, Me and Novell NetWare), but it largely came down to the following:
  • Concerns about maintaining code on operating systems which had been abandoned for years by their manufacturers:
    • If we came across a bug or compatibility issue in an operating system or a tool we used as part of the build, verification, QA or release management processes, it wasn't like we'd be able to get support from that vendor.
    • Additionally, many of these may have either (1) not virtualized well; or (2) required specific (and very obsolete/expensive/hard-to-get/hard-to-maintain) software and hardware to operate.  While you may have amortized the cost of all that stuff so it's essentially free for you to build and test software for those old OSes, there's not exactly a lot of DPT SmartCache II PM2122 SCSI RAID controllers for plugging into the EISA slot of an AMI Enterprise III Series 068 motherboard available these days in case one fails.
  • No new customers were signing up to purchase these legacy products.  The amount of revenue for these products declined year-over-year.
  • Technological limitations in both hardware and software.  In Windows 9x, there's nothing like Windows Filtering Platform to intercept network traffic.  You have to use VxDs and Layered Service Providers, which often Do Not Play Well With Others.

    There's also issues with memory.  A lot of those old system had limited memory... especially by today's standards.  Right now, our re-baselined virus signature database is something like 22-24MB in size.  Throw in another 16MB for code and you're at ~40MB of RAM.  And that's before you even start even using any of it (figure double or even triple that, depending upon how much your PC has to scan at once).  That's a lot of swapping on a machine with a 16-32 MB of RAM, especially with a single-core, single-threaded CPU in the low-hundreds of MHz range.

    The time that you spend working around a lot of those system issues is often the time you don't spend optimizing your code for the latest technologies.
  • There are other, newer OSes and platforms out there you can be creating products for technologies that are gaining marketshare (Linux, OS X, mobile, new versions of Windows, SharePoint, etc.).  With a finite number of resources available, do you try to make something to protect, say, Android users, where the threats grew at a rate of 17× last year (or whatever it was) or do you continue development of the NetWare Loadable Module version of your software?
Personally, I'd also be concerned about the viability/stability of someone who's running a business on Windows 95.  I know there are a lot of manufacturing and laboratory businesses where they might have a $50K-$200K piece of equipment critical to the operation of the business that just happens to use a Windows 95 PC as its controller.  But if the business does some type of common activity (retail?) where there are lots of companies competing offering Windows 7/Windows Server 2008R2 products (POS, inventory, CRM, whatever) and they have not upgraded to something that's currently supported, I'd be concerned about their whole operation, not just the IT parts.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

View Postross549, on 08 April 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

:blink:

That's impressive. Why was Windows 95 dropped?

Adam

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Aryeh Goretsky
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#29 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:32 AM

View Postgoretsky, on 10 April 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

... manufacturing and laboratory businesses where they might have a $50K-$200K piece of equipment critical to the operation of the business that just happens to use a Windows 95 PC as its controller.

in 2005, we had 30 or so 286 pcs running dos 6.22.
each ran a piece of automated test equipment.
i had a 5 or 6 of those pcs stored in case of failure. (imagine trying to buy spare parts.)
katrina (the horrific 2005 hurricane) resolved the problem by flooding the 100,000 sq ft plant.
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#30 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:09 AM

That's one way for a forced upgrade path, Temmu.

Totally agree Aryeh!
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#31 OFFLINE   ross549

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:38 PM

View Postgoretsky, on 10 April 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

There were several inter-related reasons for dropping Windows 95 support (by the way, this also includes Windows 98, Me and Novell NetWare), but it largely came down to the following:


Thank you for the thorough reply! That makes a lot of sense. :)

Adam
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#32 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:05 PM

Of course it makes a lot of sense. That's why Aryeh gets the BIG $$$. :)
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#33 OFFLINE   Corrine

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

Not many posts but sharing considering Eric's love of DOS:  DosMan Drivel blog by Tim Patterson, the original author of DOS.
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#34 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:12 PM

DOS was my way of being a command line interface geek before I knew about Linux. ;)
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#35 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:12 AM

Same here Eric. We had old 8088 and 8086 processors initially. Jim bought a true IBM computer, mine was an IBM compatible.

I had a cga monitor to start with, then upgraded to an ega Princeton monitor. Boy was that nice!

After I got the ega monitor, we could see more colors! So much nicer in the 'newer' DOS games that could take advantage of ega! ;)
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#36 OFFLINE   amenditman

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:48 AM

I miss the old DOS games.

Silent Hunter
High Seas Trader

and my son's favorite
Donald's ABC's
(he learned to read and write because he needed to type commands at the prompt to start the games)

GUI's, tablets, and game consoles are no great improvement. Now we have lots of really pretty games which are a lot less entertaining.

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#37 OFFLINE   lewmur

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:58 AM

View PostLilBambi, on 12 April 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Same here Eric. We had old 8088 and 8086 processors initially. Jim bought a true IBM computer, mine was an IBM compatible.

I had a cga monitor to start with, then upgraded to an ega Princeton monitor. Boy was that nice!

After I got the ega monitor, we could see more colors! So much nicer in the 'newer' DOS games that could take advantage of ega! ;)
When the IBM PC XT first came out, it was a "love/hate" thing.  In one way you had to love it because it put the IBM "seal of approval" on the entire industry.  On the other hand, you had to hate it because the machine was a piece of junk and DOS was a total joke.  Luckily we were able to get both MPM and Theos to work on the XT but there were 8 bit machines already on the market that were far cheaper, better built, that ran 30% faster than the pseudo 16bit 8088.  But businesses would buy systems using IBM branded stuff that wouldn't even consider buying better equipment from "unknown" makers like Altos or Televideo.

#38 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 10:53 AM

i wrote a game in basic for the cga monitor.
i took advantage of the fact you could swap color palettes out, depending on the scene's mood.
the game was simple - your viewpoint was the cockpit of a shuttle
you had to acquire the space station, approach it, match it's rotation (it was a wheel like the one in 2001 an odd space) and slow enough to dock safely.
you were paid for a successful docking, and if you conserved fuel, you didn't have to buy what you saved.
you lost money if your final velocity was to high & you had to pay for damages! :D
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#39 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

My favorite games from that era, although not necessarily DOS games, were Zork and M.U.L.E. Gads! We played these for hours and hours and hours, along with lots pizza, soda, coffee and Marlboros.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.L.E.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zork
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#40 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 01:29 PM

By the way....

Atari M.U.L.E. online --> http://www.atarimule.com/

Zork I online --> http://thcnet.net/zork/index.php

More Zork goodies --> http://www.infocom-i.../downloads.html
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#41 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:18 PM

I loved all the Apogee games from Commander Keene (all the Commander Keene ones!) to the 3DRealms/Apogee games like Duke Nukem, Duke Nukem 2, and ultimately Duke Nukem 3D. Also enjoyed some older ones like Sonic the Hedgehog, Jill of the Jungle, Paganitzu, Also enjoyed Doom and Doom 3D later. Wolfenstein, Blake Stone, Quake. Ms Pac Man. And my all time favorites, Cosmo's Cosmic Adventure (1, 2 & 3), Halloween Harry, and many, many others. Oh, and one of our all time favorites is 7th Guest.

We also started out playing text games that are a ton of fun even today.

We still play many of these since we own so many of them via DOSBox.

The 10 Greatest MS-DOS Games of All Time - PCWorld - 2011

I have DOSBox on the Mac, Windows and Linux.
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#42 OFFLINE   therock247uk

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:16 PM

dos games ftw!!

#43 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:41 PM

FTW! I think there is a chance that the name for Cory Doctorow's book "For The Win" came from FTW too. ;)

Edited by LilBambi, 20 April 2013 - 12:42 PM.

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#44 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:00 PM

I'm bumping this older thread with a question: What are you professional service gurus telling your clients if they are still blissfully running XP with no knowledge of its impending demise?
Most of my freebie service customers are either too cheap or too poor to buy a new machine it seems. I'd like to introduce them to Linux but that seems to be a non starter. I am sure they are going to **LUV** Windows 8 so I have suggested to some that they get a refurbed machine from a company like the one below that runs Windows 7.

https://www.tte.ca/

Edited by raymac46, 05 October 2013 - 08:01 PM.

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#45 OFFLINE   ross549

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:34 PM

I recommend Windows 7, even if it means buying a new machine.

Adam
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#46 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:00 PM

I tell my customers to get rid of all their computers, laptops, iPads, and Smart phones and move to a plywood shack in the woods to await the impending zombiepocalypse... or government debt ceiling collapse, whichever comes first. ;)
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#47 OFFLINE   crp

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:41 AM

If the person can afford it, new laptop with W8, using an external monitor ( and kb/m)  plus ClassicShell.
Else, buy a 2nd pc from past 3 years and install W7
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. ~C. S. Lewis

#48 OFFLINE   amenditman

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:53 AM

Pretty much recommending a factory refurb, off-lease, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit machine as a drop in replacement.
I find great deals for these at Newegg and Overstock.
Last one I got was a Dell Optiplex 760 SFF, Core 2 Duo, 4 GB Ram, 1 TB HDD machine for just under $200.

I have found some brand new machines in the price range, but they all have Windows 8.
Can't recommend those at this time.

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#49 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 10:42 AM

Well, Windows 7 is good through 2020 so a great choice for now. I too love those great little machines you can get with Windows 7. Some Intel Core i3 or i5s with 4-8GB RAM expandable to 8-16GB depending on the machine are well worth looking at as well.
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#50 OFFLINE   ross549

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:09 AM

View Postamenditman, on 06 October 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Pretty much recommending a factory refurb, off-lease, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit machine as a drop in replacement.
I find great deals for these at Newegg and Overstock.
Last one I got was a Dell Optiplex 760 SFF, Core 2 Duo, 4 GB Ram, 1 TB HDD machine for just under $200.

Just picked up an HP Core i7 2.8 tower from Newegg for 400.00. It is a solid machine and very upgradeable for the foreseeable future.

It is not my computer but the church's.

Adam
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