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Creative Labs: Vista: Drivers!


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#1 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 08:51 AM

;) isn't this sick!  and as much as this seems like an april fools joke, it is not.  this first link is creative labs demanding a user to STOP making creative labs products work in vista.http://forums.creati...hread.id=116332i only quote in case it gets removed...  (read the two items in red if you wish brevity)

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Daniel_K:We are aware that you have been assisting owners of our Creative sound cards for some time now, by providing unofficial driver packages for Vista that deliver more of the original functionality that was found in the equivalent XP packages for those sound cards.  In principle we don't have a problem with you helping users in this way, so long as they understand that any driver packages you supply are not supported by Creative.  Where we do have a problem is when technology and IP owned by Creative or other companies that Creative has licensed from, are made to run on other products for which they are not intended.  We took action to remove your thread because, like you, Creative and its technology partners think it is only fair to be compensated for goods and services.  The difference in this case is that we own the rights to the materials that you are distributing.  By enabling our technology and IP to run on sound cards for which it was not originally offered or intended, you are in effect, stealing our goods.  When you solicit donations for providing packages like this, you are profiting from something that you do not own.  If we choose to develop and provide host-based processing features with certain sound cards and not others, that is a business decision that only we have the right to make.Although you say you have discontinued your practice of distributing unauthorized software packages for Creative sound cards we have seen evidence of them elsewhere along with donation requests from you.  We also note in a recent post of yours on these forums, that you appear to be contemplating the release of further packages.  To be clear, we are asking you to respect our legal rights in this matter and cease all further unauthorized distribution of our technology and IP.  In addition we request that you observe our forum rules and respect our right to enforce those rules.  If you are in any doubt as to what we would consider unacceptable then please request clarification through one of our forum moderators before posting.Phil O'ShaughnessyVP Corporate CommunicationsCreative Labs Inc. Forum ModeratorCreative Labs
second, here is the article explaining...http://techdirt.com/...133233697.shtml
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#2 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 10:16 AM

Vista strikes again ... is Creative so worried that Microsoft will be forced by the "Content Providers' to force Creative to kowtow to the "Content Providers" will or have their "Certification" removed?If they bow to the will of the "Entertainment Cartels" as Microsoft, many hardware and software/driver venders have done, maybe they deserve to lose credibility and market share.Remember A3D, Aureal 3-Dimensional, aka VORTEX sound cards?I used to love Creative products back in the early 1990s. But I will not be buying a Creative products again after they were responsible in 1998 for the lawsuit that helped to drive A3D out of business with their lawsuit which Aureal/A3D actually won.After Creative caused Aureal/A3D to go belly up because of their attempts to successfully! defend themselves, they gobbled them up.Even though Aureal/A3D WON the lawsuit (the battle), they lost the war because the cost of the battle put them into bankruptcy. Making them easy pickings for Creative at fire sale pricing.What goes around comes around.And if that wasn't bad enough, in 2004, Creative Pressured id software regarding their EAX3D drivers (technology they got from A3D maybe??) and 'agreement relating to Creative's patented shadowing technique [also known as Carmack's Reverse in some coding circles] and id's cutting-edge 3D graphics DOOM 3 engine.'This information was posted on the TechDirt article Temmu listed in the first Comment:

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Another whopper by Anonymous Coward on Mar 31st, 2008 @ 1:40amDaniel_K tried to restore functionality from an intentionally crippled piece of hardware. But is Creative another victim of Vista Certification? Story at 11.Creative Pressures id Software With Patentshttp://games.slashdo...4/07/28/1529222Creative sues Aureal Semiconductor and it's superior A3D sound engine, forcing it into bankruptcy, and then Creative buys Aureal on the cheap.http://www.answers.com/topic/a3d
Interesting path Creative has chosen for themselves.
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#3 OFFLINE   striker

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 10:51 AM

http://forums.scotsn...showtopic=20675I followed this 'war' from friday. No more CL here, in fact I use on board stuff which works great. ;)
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#4 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 01:36 PM

sorry, striker, i'll search the forum before i post next time... didn't mean to duplicate your efforts.
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#5 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 01:46 PM

Actually it wasn't a double posting type of thing. No worries Temmu. If it had been identical we could have thrown them together. But I thought about how the topics would meld and decided to leave it as is.Happy that striker posted the link though so we could look at another specific area where  Creative has screwed over their customers.
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#6 OFFLINE   striker

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 03:37 PM

no worries Temmu, it's better there's a thread in windows and linux about this matter.  :)
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#7 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 06:00 PM

He is upsetting Creative's obsolescence/upgrade schedule and therefore its sales performance. On top of that he is personally profitting from it.

#8 OFFLINE   striker

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 06:20 PM

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He is upsetting Creative's obsolescence/upgrade schedule and therefore its sales performance. On top of that he is personally profitting from it.
That second statement may be false because we don't know for sure: the donation was voluntary and we don't know if anyone paid at all, from those forums I read he even let them download without donating.Regarding your first statement: Creative seems to have delivered hardware in a box stating what it was all about, you know raving about the possibilities of the contents in the box. In reality some of those statements on the box were removed or crippled.Besides that they seem to have the policy of releasing an item and feeding the buyers with that, until they have bought it and then they won't release any updates for it.In other words more PR and marketing mumbo jumbo than contents. :thumbsdown:Good article at:http://arstechnica.c...fi-drivers.html
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#9 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 07:16 PM

last month's pc magazine had an article about several hyped technologies "promised out now (soon) (er, maybe later)" that all fell through.pity the consumer.
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#10 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 11:10 PM

Excellent article as always at arstechnica! Great find.And this paragraph confirms that others have the same suspicion as I do and mentioned earlier:

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According to Creative's own FAQ, sound cards from the X-Fi and Audigy families are incapable of decoding Dolby Digital or DTS, due to the fact that "these functions are not supported at driver level in Windows Vista." This isn't true.  When two of the driver files from a standard X-Fi card are replaced with two driver files drawn from a Dell-specific driver available at the company's support web site, DTS and DD decoding immediately reappear as options and function correctly. Creative might be able to get away with saying that DTS and DD decoding aren't enabled at the driver level for X-Fi and Audigy cards, but the functionality is clearly baked into the driver and is thus supported. Creative may never come straight out and say "It's Microsoft's fault that your cards doesn't work," but the Vista support pages are loaded with descriptions of how Vista's audio system broke Creative products.

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#11 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 04:37 AM

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That second statement may be false because we don't know for sure: the donation was voluntary and we don't know if anyone paid at all, from those forums I read he even let them download without donating.
The purpose of soliciting donations (unless it is to Oxfam or something) is very clear.

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Regarding your first statement: Creative seems to have delivered hardware in a box stating what it was all about, you know raving about the possibilities of the contents in the box. In reality some of those statements on the box were removed or crippled.
It is more like Creative put out a product specifically for XP or older operating systems, reserving Vista support for newer products (or some legacy products for a fee) as the business plan.

#12 OFFLINE   Urmas

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 04:49 AM

View Postb2cm, on Apr 1 2008, 11:37 AM, said:

It is more like Creative put out a product specifically for XP or older operating systems, reserving Vista support for newer products (or some legacy products for a fee) as the business plan.
The Pumpkin series? Posted Image :wacko:

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#13 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 04:38 PM

What he was doing was undermining Creative's business using Creative's channels. That was why his posts were deleted. If someone would participate in SFNL forums in a manner that undermines Scot's purpose for the newsletter and these forums, his post would, for the same reason, be deleted by administrators and moderators.

#14 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 05:03 PM

Scot's Newsletter forum does not create hardware that doesn't work as advertised or crash your operating system and refuse to fix the problem.You can not even begin to compare forums of such dissimilar natures.Creative needs to rethink their business model if they wish to stay in business.If they continue down this path, they will lose even more credibility and many, many customers.Customers will choose what works and Creative's products are not working right. That is their problem and many users are very upset and I don't blame them.There are other sound card companies to choose from and if they continue to act this way, then they will reap the consequences of such action. That's business. That's free enterprise. That's life.
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#15 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 07:23 PM

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You can not even begin to compare forums of such dissimilar natures.
My point was that the owner of the Creative forums deleted the posts it interprets to be undermining its business. The same thing happens here and almost everywhere. Administrators or moderators do not tolerate posts they interpret as undermining the purpose of the forums.

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Creative needs to rethink their business model if they wish to stay in business.
Creative will stand or fall according to its understanding of the market and its place in it. And that is their business, including the right to manage their forum in aid of their business.

#16 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:12 PM

View Postb2cm, on Apr 1 2008, 07:23 PM, said:

Creative will stand or fall according to its understanding of the market and its place in it. And that is their business, including the right to manage their forum in aid of their business.
And pay the consequences of not heeding the needs of their customers, as any other business.
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#17 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:13 PM

http://www.engadget....eative-drivers/daniel_k responds
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#18 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 08:22 PM

And another one here at the Hardware Logic Forums:

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Daniel_K, the Creative Labs fan who fixed the company's broken Vista sound card drivers only to be threatened by the corporate brass, just e-mailed with his side of the story."My name is Daniel Kawakami and I'm Brazilian," he writes. "I'm NOT a cracker, a hacker, just an enthusiast modder with basic assembly knowledge and very persistent."Kawakami's expertise allowed him to enable advanced features in sound cards that Creative advertised as Vista-compatible, but which did not perform as well under that operating system as they do under Windows XP. After tolerating the distribution of his unofficial drivers for a time, Creative's vice president of corporate communications, Phil O'Shaughnessy, ultimately asked him to stop, and accused him of "stealing their goods." O'Shaughnessy also wrote that whether or not it cripples its Vista drivers is a "business decision that only we have the right to make."
Some interesting comments in response on their forum as well.
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#19 OFFLINE   crp

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 05:38 PM

I'm with b2cm on this one,  I don't see how CL is doing something so dastardly wrong in what they were doing.  It is their product and their software. If they had come after someone who had used their own 'devices'  than I would join in the pummeling crowd.   One might not like the fact that CL is delivering cripple-ware but it is their discretion to do so (and keep in mind that there might be a very good reason to not mess with the Vista enviorenment). As others have stated - if you don't like their approach , boycott them.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. ~C. S. Lewis

#20 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 06:05 PM

You can count on it crp. I haven't bought anything from Creative in literally years. Many others have already signed up to post that they are as well.No one is questioning their legal right. It's their ethical rights we question.
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#21 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 06:11 PM

i posted in atl, it's all about drm.vista is NOT supposed to play content, except crippled, unless it can verify the source as drm'd legal.  it's supposed to not work.
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#22 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 06:25 PM

Exactly.  Temmu!

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Criticism of Trusted ComputingTrusted Computing opponents such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation and Free Software Foundation (which has referred to it as Treacherous Computing) claim trust in the underlying companies is not deserved and that the technology puts too much power and control into the hands of those who design systems and software. They also believe that it may cause consumers to lose anonymity in their online interactions, as well as mandating technologies Trusted Computing opponents deem as unnecessary. They suggest Trusted Computing as a possible enabler for future versions of mandatory access control, copy protection, and Digital rights management.Some security experts[13][14] have spoken out against Trusted Computing, believing it will provide computer manufacturers and software authors with increased control to impose restrictions on what users are able to do with their computers. There are concerns that Trusted Computing would have an anti-competitive effect on competition in the IT market.There is concern amongst critics that it will not always be possible to examine the hardware components on which Trusted Computing relies, the Trusted Platform Module, which is the ultimate hardware system where the core 'root' of trust in the platform has to lie. If not implemented correctly, it presents a security risk to overall platform integrity and protected data. The specifications, as published by the Trusted Computing Group, are open and are available for anyone to review. However, the final implementations by commercial vendors will not necessarily be subjected to the same review process. In addition, the world of cryptography can often move quickly, and that hardware implementations of algorithms might create an inadvertent obsolescence. Trusting networked computers to controlling authorities rather than to individuals may create digital imprimaturs.
http://en.wikipedia....usted_Computinghttp://www.eff.org/w...romise-and-riskWas wondering when Trusted Computing specifically would be mentioned ... by name.
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#23 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:06 AM

When you see 'crippling' of features in sound cards or other hardware, it probably means:(1) The manufacturer is using a simplified production process and the economy of scale to lower cost per unit. That's to say the manufacturer makes just one type of sound card which has both the basic functionality and some advanced features. (2) The vendor is using market segmentation. That's to say the vendor sells the sound card with basic functionality to the general market at a price this market is willing to pay, crippling the advanced feature through firmware and/or driver. It also sells the sound card to the enthusiast market that is willing to pay a higher price for those adcanced features. Usually, it is a more practical, economical and efficient way to bring designs to the marketplace. It is a win-win solution. The manufacturer and vendors can bring their costs down, enabling them to be competitive and at the same time profitable. The basic card buyers get the card with the functionality at the price they are willing to pay--why pay more for something you will not need. The enthusiasts get their advanced features at a price they are also willing to pay. Now, if some buyers of the basic card want an upgrade, they can buy the enthusiast card, or pay for a firmware update and drivers, if available. If they don't want to pay anything for the advanced features, they can go look around the internet for firmware patches and drivers made by hackers. These hackers will claim that the vendors makes crappy firmware and drivers, so is doing the vendor and consumers a favor. The truth is the vendor paid for the development of those advanced features and is offering the technology only to people who are willing to pay extra for it.The reason why they are called 'hackers' is because they do not develop their own firmware/drivers. They take and reverse engineer the firmware and drivers of the vendor.

Edited by b2cm, 03 April 2008 - 10:16 AM.


#24 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 12:16 PM

My understanding was that most of these were cards that folks had already spent money on for WinXP with full feature sets that worked under WinXP.You don't charge for a card and then take features away in the next OS. The card is the card.The cards had stated features on the packaging they purchased.
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#25 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 02:04 PM

In this case, what those folks bought was a Creative sound card with driver support for full features under Windows XP. And they still have what they paid for. Unless the circumstances and terms of the sale involved assurances from Creative that the card will work in other or future operating systems (say Linux or Vista), those folks really cannot demand that as a matter of right. If support is provided, well and good. If not, and they need the features, they can choose to not OS-migrate, or buy a new card with Vista or Linux support, or experiment with workarounds by hackers.




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