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20 Reasons Why Vista Will Be Your Next OS


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#26 OFFLINE   epp_b

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 02:03 AM

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It may be to you but I personally don't care. My copies of MS operating systems are legit. But we both know how easy it is to grab a bit-torrent client and grab a pirated modified copy of XP or whatever, where WPA and Windows Update are turned off and will NEVER ever phone home. So MS figured they would offer software "extras" requiring a valid copy of XP to download them. Thus WGA...I know many who bought computers form local shops that later turned out to be pirated copies through "hard disk loading" (shop owner takes a single copy and sells it many times, thus increasing his profit). Lots of folks get burnedWhat I tell everyone, if you don't like the policies... don't use the product.If they go so far as to install a kill switch... good! And those stealing the product will get cut off at the knees. As well they they should. And you'll whine, "What about the innocent? What did they do to deserve this fate?"Why don't we wait to see it it really happens and how well it works. They may just manage to eliminate the false positives... If they did manage that, would you have a problem with it?
(bold emphasis mine)Marsden, many people have told you two main things about your viewpoints and you've managed to compile them both into this reply. ...1. The world is comprised of more people than just you.  So, it may not happen to affect you.  Well, hurray for you.  It may not necessarily be same for other people (yes, there are other people on this planet).2. You know very well that, with Microsoft's monopoly, it's not as easy to go "Microsoft-free" as you make it sound.  Windows a necessity for many businesses because they require the use of software that only works with Microsoft Windows.  ...And the reason that it only works with Windows is because Windows has such a high market share.  And the reason for that is because most software is written for it!  It's a vicious cycle and multiplies itself, as you can see.

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As long as MS is one step ahead (you can't hack something that has not been created yet)... the game goes on forever...
Exactly!!!  ...So why waste so much money, resources, and rhetoric on it?

Edited by epp_b, 29 June 2006 - 02:06 AM.


#27 OFFLINE   Jeber

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 02:08 AM

I think the issue of adoption still comes back to hardware.Reading your article, Scot, I admit I can see several new functions within Vista that would make it a welcome successor to XP.  But the hardware required to get the most out the OS is too new for many users.  We all know people who are still running 98/98SE/ME because it's all their hardware can handle, and they don't see an urgent need to upgrade.  I don't see Vista bringing anything to the table that will change that behavior.Geeks, early adopters and those buying new computers will assure MS of millions of sales when Vista is released.  But millions more will hesitate, some for years.  It almost seems that with each iteration of Windows, the rate of prompt upgrading has lessened.  I know very few people who didn't leap into 95 when it came out.  It was considered such a revolutionary improvement over any other OS then available.  Likewise, 98/98SE was seen as a massive improvement over 95, and it handled the 95-era hardware easily.  Again, most people I've talked to about upgrades say that they were eager to install 98/98SE.  W2K was well received though mostly only among business users, and even those folk were not easy to convince to roll out a new OS over the entire enterprise immediately upon its release.  XP was probably the OS to be adopted the slowest.  98/98SE was a good enough OS for many people who didn't demand all that much from their computers.  They didn't sense an overwhelming need to buy XP.  Those that did install XP could at least do so using their 98-era hardware.  Vista's lack of must-have improvements and hardware demands I suspect will make it the slowest adopted Microsoft OS yet.As much as I'm enjoying the beta, on my laptop even more than the desktop, I know for a fact that I won't be even considering changing over for at least as long as MS supports XP Pro.  So it could easily be another 7 years or more before I really have to consider Vista, and by then it will be a vastly different OS than it will be at release.

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#28 OFFLINE   Marsden11

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 03:10 AM

Going MS "free" is as easy or as hard as you make it.Many of you probably wonder what I do for a living... I wonder myself all the time. I'm a principle in a IP video capture company. 4 months ago we (actually my head sales guy) pitched Sysco Corp. (Today, SYSCO has sales and service relationships with approximately 390,000 customers and remains committed to helping them succeed in the food service industry. Operating from 170 locations throughout the contiguous United States and portions of Alaska, Hawaii, and Canada, today SYSCO's product lines are as diverse as the 47,500 employees who support its daily operations. $30.3 billion in sales in 2005.)Sold them on a video capture product that did not exist. Nobody made it. Over two weekends I put some off the shelf hardware components together and created a battery powered, WiFi enabled, digital video capture device able to similtaneously capture 30 frames per/sec across 8 cameras.Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image The original prototype was for a single camera hidden in a working CO2 detector. That changed to 8 cameras (1 rear backup, 1 right side cam and 6 interior trailer cams)Very low power... able to capture video for 2 weeks! Try that on your laptop... The key is the video which is processed and compressed on our proprietary video capture chips and not on the CPU itself.The unit also has GPS and is able to transmit video via satellite from anywhere in North America.After I did the prototype and it proved it could work as advertised, it was sent overnight to Taiwan where it was quickly redesigned into a basic single board computer (everything integrated on a single board including memory and video capture).There are now 20 of these new units rolling around Northern Calif. If they work as advertised it is a $50 million deal. They have over 15,000 trucks!Oh, what are we running on it? We could have used embedded CE but went with RH 5 Embedded. It was cheaper...

#29 OFFLINE   teacher

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 07:47 AM

I think it all boils down to hardware as well like Jeber stated.  Marsden, I don't know what you call new.  I am not running an AMD 64 because I have not seen the support for it yet.  As far as my specs, this tablet is less than 6 months old and is fairly current.  It was not a cheap machine.  The Pentium M chips have not moved up to a much higher level since January.  In fact, it is still more computer than your average user has right now.I am convinced that Vista will only be adopted by the "got to have it" folks and those buying new, higher end computers.  There is going to be a divide in the market where folks look at the price.  Folks on a budget are going to say "Does this $400 laptop do everything I need?" while those that have to have the latest will spend more to get a higher level laptop and spend the $2000 or whatever it takes to get a good working Vista.  Before I go to that extreme, I will spend the money on a Mac and then dual boot it with Linux.  Tha way I will have the Linux to play with and the Mac to do those things like quicken that I can't live without.By the way I get my daughter's cast offs at this point in life.  Somewhere down the line it switched.  :thumbsup:  Then again, I told her that her computer with 4GB of RAM and all 500GB of hard dries was the last I was buying her.  :)  She should be able to run Vista as soon as it will work with Maya.
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#30 OFFLINE   Marsden11

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 08:11 AM

Seriously, if Dell can sell a desktop media center PC with a 17" flat screen with free shipping for $499... Not to mention Intel and AMD whacking each other in a soon to be here price war... The extra horsepower Vista might require from currently shipping systems will not amount to very much cost wise (CPU being the most expensive component). There will be the usual low to high end Vista systems.Your tablet has some limitations... battery life which affects total CPU horsepower. If I crank my Presario up to 2.4 GHz it gets noisy and quite hot, not to mention very short battery life like 1.5-2 hrs. I doubt your tablet comes anywhere near it's maximum CPU speed. Will there be Vista tablets? Probably, but they will have even lower powered CPUs and better graphics. Then there are the new hybrid HDs coming... more flash equals less juice to run...Most laptops next year will sport dual cores and better graphics... the middle of next year they will be pushing out quad cores...Historically, the hardware gets cheaper as the horsepower requirements get steeper. My first modern era PC cost over $5K for an Intel 486DX2 with 16 MBs of RAM and a 40MB HD (pre Win95).In contrast, my Presario Athlon64 3700 with 2GBs of RAM and a 80GB HD cost less than $1800. (running XP Pro x64)Next year it will have two CPU cores, the same memory or more and a larger HD and most likely cost less.

Edited by Marsden11, 29 June 2006 - 08:20 AM.


#31 OFFLINE   Marsden11

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 08:46 AM

A good friend of mine has written a new operating system from the bottom up and the kernel will load and run on a $.60 cent chip. Need to upgrade the kernel? Just replace the $.60 cent chip... He's in the process of securing VC funds for the project...Some day we may be standing in line at the grocery check out and pluck a CPU off the rack for a few bucks or less...

#32 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 12:03 PM

View PostJeber, on Jun 29 2006, 02:08 AM, said:

I think the issue of adoption still comes back to hardware.Reading your article, Scot, I admit I can see several new functions within Vista that would make it a welcome successor to XP.  But the hardware required to get the most out the OS is too new for many users.  We all know people who are still running 98/98SE/ME because it's all their hardware can handle, and they don't see an urgent need to upgrade.  I don't see Vista bringing anything to the table that will change that behavior.Geeks, early adopters and those buying new computers will assure MS of millions of sales when Vista is released.  But millions more will hesitate, some for years.  It almost seems that with each iteration of Windows, the rate of prompt upgrading has lessened.  I know very few people who didn't leap into 95 when it came out.  It was considered such a revolutionary improvement over any other OS then available.  Likewise, 98/98SE was seen as a massive improvement over 95, and it handled the 95-era hardware easily.  Again, most people I've talked to about upgrades say that they were eager to install 98/98SE.  W2K was well received though mostly only among business users, and even those folk were not easy to convince to roll out a new OS over the entire enterprise immediately upon its release.  XP was probably the OS to be adopted the slowest.  98/98SE was a good enough OS for many people who didn't demand all that much from their computers.  They didn't sense an overwhelming need to buy XP.  Those that did install XP could at least do so using their 98-era hardware.  Vista's lack of must-have improvements and hardware demands I suspect will make it the slowest adopted Microsoft OS yet.As much as I'm enjoying the beta, on my laptop even more than the desktop, I know for a fact that I won't be even considering changing over for at least as long as MS supports XP Pro.  So it could easily be another 7 years or more before I really have to consider Vista, and by then it will be a vastly different OS than it will be at release.
Excellent thoughts Jeber! And very true.
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#33 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 11:31 PM

View PostMarsden11, on Jun 28 2006, 11:21 PM, said:

...And what is to prevent MS from employing an external key (USB) with AES 256bit encryption? ...

View PostWebb, on Jun 28 2006, 11:40 PM, said:

The external USB key isn't as far out as it sounds.  Many software distributors employed a similar external device in the pre-DOS days.
i have two pieces of software that each require an external usb key.one runs the door security program,the other the id card producing program.ps,i stopped reading 1/2 way down page 1, where i've commented.  more to follow.  no doubt.
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#34 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 11:53 PM

comments, part two.scot, as always, has great articles full of detailed information that would take me far to long to find elsewhere (if i could.)  and that goes for his two pieces in this thread.appologies, marsden11 but as to wga causing legit users problems or loss of the use of their os, i can't buy off on ms doing that, even accidentally.  sorry, i know that sentance suxors.comments, part three.ah, vista, how we love thee...  anyway.  95 was great, but it had the same problem that vista will; hardware & more of it.  reading everyone's comments here proves that even if you have today's best system with a huge pile of memory & great video card, it's still not enough.  so i'm agreeing with jeber's article, it's a big big step up that will absolutely require brand new (not yet available) hardware to enjoy; and sorry, with glass turned off, it wouldn't be enjoyable.comments, part fourcongrats, marsden11! hope all goes well with your sysco venture! :rolleyes: (i've indirectly done some publishing work for them; their food show catalogs.)ps,if you're feeling magnanimus, my bank is capital one and my account is 329475 824936, deposit unmarked 20's, please!  :rolleyes:
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#35 OFFLINE   Jeber

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 01:13 AM

Just to make things easier, Temmu, could you post your pin number, too, so we can deposit funds at an ATM?Posted Image

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#36 OFFLINE   Gary

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 06:26 AM

View PostJeber, on Jun 30 2006, 01:13 AM, said:

Just to make things easier, Temmu, could you post your pin number, too, so we can deposit funds at an ATM?Posted Image
That should not be that hard to figure out.Posted Image

#37 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 01:46 PM

1234; or was it my birth month/year?  hmm...oops! is this that fishing thing i keep hearing about?? :thumbsdown:
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#38 OFFLINE   daihard

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 03:23 PM

View PostMarsden11, on Jun 28 2006, 08:22 PM, said:

What I tell everyone, if you don't like the policies... don't use the product.
If there's anything I agree with you on, that's one of them.  :w00t:I am not planning on buying Vista for myself. I will probably end up using it at work since we develop multi-platform software whose target platforms include Windows. Hey, that's not my money. :thumbsdown:

Edited by daihard, 30 June 2006 - 03:58 PM.


#39 OFFLINE   Peachy

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 03:47 PM

I've been saying this over and over again. If you buy a new computer by the time Vista ships it will be fine. If you plan on running Vista on existing equipment I think any CPU at 2.4GHz or faster will be sufficient. The visual quality will depend on your graphics card's Direct X capabilities. DX9 good. DX8 average. DX7, no Aero for you! The only other performance variable will be memory. 2GB will be the new sweet spot, but judging by the prices of PC2-3200, RAM is cheap. For what I paid 3 years ago to get 1GB I can now buy 4GB today.And right now, it looks like Intel's Core 2 Duo (Conroe and Merom) processors are faster than the current Pressler Duo Core Extreme Editions and they are definitely faster than AMD's FX62. I'm running an almost 4 year-old Northwood Pentium 4 as my main machine and Conroe or Merom is within my upgrade plans in the next 6 months.

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#40 OFFLINE   Jeber

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Posted 01 July 2006 - 01:49 AM

Yeah, Peachy, keep telling yourself that it will just be a new processor.  Posted Image"Hey, wouldn't a new mobo be appropriate...and of course I'll need that new video card, and sound, gotta upgrade the sound card...4 gigs of memory, huh, might as well...whoa, a 48" plasma screen, absolutely."Geeks cannot resist.  We lose all our self-control 15' inside the door at Fry's, Radio Shack and WorstPurchase.

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#41 OFFLINE   Scot

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Posted 01 July 2006 - 05:11 PM

Hate to interrupt the who's tech knowledge is bigger match here, but I have a question related to Marsden's earlier post about his Compaq x64 machine. Marsden, how did you partition that drive for the spare volume when you installed x64 Vista B2?-- Scot
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#42 OFFLINE   Scot

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Posted 01 July 2006 - 05:29 PM

View PostMarsden11, on Jun 29 2006, 08:11 AM, said:

Seriously, if Dell can sell a desktop media center PC with a 17" flat screen with free shipping for $499... Not to mention Intel and AMD whacking each other in a soon to be here price war... The extra horsepower Vista might require from currently shipping systems will not amount to very much cost wise (CPU being the most expensive component). There will be the usual low to high end Vista systems.Your tablet has some limitations... battery life which affects total CPU horsepower. If I crank my Presario up to 2.4 GHz it gets noisy and quite hot, not to mention very short battery life like 1.5-2 hrs. I doubt your tablet comes anywhere near it's maximum CPU speed. Will there be Vista tablets? Probably, but they will have even lower powered CPUs and better graphics. Then there are the new hybrid HDs coming... more flash equals less juice to run...Most laptops next year will sport dual cores and better graphics... the middle of next year they will be pushing out quad cores...
Just because it happens once in a while, I'm posting here: I agree completely with Marsden on this point.I think the real pressure point for full Vista support is graphics hardware. Aero requires DirectX9 or better 3D GPUs that support PixelShader 2.0 and have 128MB video memory. Very few notebook PCs sold with that level of hardware last year. And you had to go to near the top of the line for the first half of this year. Most enthusiast desktop machines supported this even last year, even if your average PC did not. But desktop PCs can upgrade their video. Notebooks are what's been selling well the last 18 months. So I think some people will be caught with less than peak video support for Vista, even those who buy machines this year.Of course, Aero isn't required to run Vista, but there are reliability as well as visual advantages. Personally, I wouldn't upgrade or buy a machine that might someday run Vista unless it supported Aero.Any machine with an Intel or AMD comparable 1.8GHz CPU with 1GB of RAM will run Vista just fine. Microsoft's min. system reqs state 1GHz CPU, as a recall. And I'm sure that's true in a lab. But the reality is that the machines that came with 1GHz CPUs don't have the right swuff to support Vista.Julia, the 42% CPU usage you describe doesn't sound right to me. I might be able to help you figure that out. Marsden's right, this is a beta. But even so, I'd be willing to bet that some background software running on your machine is having an issue -- perhaps it only occurs under Vista.-- Scot
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#43 OFFLINE   Marsden11

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 03:18 AM

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Marsden, how did you partition that drive for the spare volume when you installed x64 Vista B2?
Posted ImageX64 Vista beta 2 is installed on E:\

Edited by Marsden11, 02 July 2006 - 03:20 AM.


#44 OFFLINE   Scot

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 09:30 AM

Marsden,No, I'm asking a question ... not calling you out.What I want to know is, what 64-bit partitioning utility did you use? Or did you partition with 32-bit software before you installed the operating systems? I'm looking for a dynamic, non-destructive 64-bit partitioning utility, trying to get recommendations on them. Most of the bigger products in that space (like PartitionMagic) don't support 64-bit. Even the enterprise-oriented products don't. And the 64-bit Feb. CTP of Vista's installation routine also would not repartition. I haven't tried it with Beta 2 yet, so I guess it's possible that Microsoft added that in the 64-bit installation routine. But if not, what did you use?-- Scot
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#45 OFFLINE   Marsden11

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 02:28 PM

No 3rd party tools were used.I used the built-in partitioning tools in XP x64 during the first install of XP x64. When I loaded Vista B2 x64 I just choose the smaller of the two partitions on the drive. When Vista loads it renames the E:\ drive C:\ and the C:\ drive D:\... From that point on it uses the Vista boot loader.I did use a 3rd party tool to edit the Vista boot loader. Renamed the orginal Windows to Legacy XP x64 and the default Windows for Vista to Vista x64.

#46 OFFLINE   jetblast

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 09:45 PM

I've been reading this thread and find it quite interesting.  Here are my two cents:I don't think that using a USB key to lockdown an OS is a going to be well received by the public.  Users today are far more mainstream than back in the day when copy protection meant feeding a floppy disk into a drive.  People have a hard enough time remembering passwords and such.  No hub would be big enough if you had to plug in a USB encryption key for every program you wanted to run if the software community decided en masse to go that route.Secondly, I'm not too worried about the hardware requirements for Vista.  The first machine I loaded Beta 2 on was a Celeron 1.7 Ghz with 512 RAM with 64 MB shared video.  I didn't notice much of a performance hit over XP Pro.  Carry on while I return to lurk mode.

#47 OFFLINE   Scot

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 11:24 AM

View Postjetblast, on Jul 2 2006, 09:45 PM, said:

Secondly, I'm not too worried about the hardware requirements for Vista.  The first machine I loaded Beta 2 on was a Celeron 1.7 Ghz with 512 RAM with 64 MB shared video.  I didn't notice much of a performance hit over XP Pro.
jetblast, the point is that you almost certainly didn't get the uplevel Aero interface on the machine you describe. And there's a range of features and visual user-experience aspects (like transparency, blurring, and reflections) that you didn't get as a result, including "Live Thumbnails," "Flip," and "Flip 3D." While I vastly prefer Aero, I think many power users probably wouldn't be concerned by the loss of these things. But there is one significant reliability loss: You're more likely to see video-driver-based Blue Screens of Death with Vista Basic than you are with Vista Aero.In fact, since Beta 1, I've installed all major pre-releases and some minor ones on about half a dozen machines, and I haven't had a single BSoD (no crashes, in fact) on any of those machines -- except the ones that weren't able to run Aero. This is one of the surprising things about Vista, actually. It's a lot more stable than XP, even in Beta. And XP is pretty stable, in my experience. I do agree that your CPU and RAM are fine for testing Vista. I recommend at least 1GB of RAM, though, for production Vista installations. The CPU is really the least important thing; it's the graphics level that I believe a year from now people will be frustrated about. Even now, a couple of months after Microsoft has specified Vista's hardware requirements, many new notebooks and desktops are not being fully equipped in the video dept. to take full advantage of Vista Aero.
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#48 OFFLINE   Gary

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 11:28 AM

"Scott" said:

jetblast, the point is that you almost certainly didn't get the uplevel Aero interface on the machine you describe. And there's a range of features and visual user-experience aspects (like transparency, blurring, and reflections) that you didn't get as a result, including "Live Thumbnails," "Flip," and "Flip 3D." While I vastly prefer Aero, I think many power users probably wouldn't be concerned by the loss of these things. But there is one significant reliability loss: You're more likely to see video-driver-based Blue Screens of Death with Vista Basic than you are with Vista Aero.
Without these features most people would not bother to upgrade to Vista. They would ignore the added security. :thumbsup:

#49 OFFLINE   Scot

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 11:30 AM

View PostMarsden11, on Jul 2 2006, 02:28 PM, said:

I used the built-in partitioning tools in XP x64 during the first install of XP x64. When I loaded Vista B2 x64 I just choose the smaller of the two partitions on the drive. When Vista loads it renames the E:\ drive C:\ and the C:\ drive D:\... From that point on it uses the Vista boot loader.
I figured as much. If anyone knows of a non-destructive dynamic partitioning utility that runs on 64-bit Windows, I'd be much obliged if you passed the information along.

View PostMarsden11, on Jul 2 2006, 02:28 PM, said:

I did use a 3rd party tool to edit the Vista boot loader. Renamed the orginal Windows to Legacy XP x64 and the default Windows for Vista to Vista x64.
What utility?-- Scot
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#50 OFFLINE   daihard

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 01:07 PM

I am just hoping that they will fix Vista before RC1 so it *will* be able to burn audio CD's. :P




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