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#76 Guest_genaldar_*

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 07:51 PM

Prelude76, on May 28 2003, 11:18 AM, said:

cybernut, on May 28 2003, 09:59 AM, said:

I've thought about Linux, but I'm too ****** dependent on a bunch of software programs that I LOVE that run only on Windows.
scoot over to our "All Things Linux" and we'll convert you  ;) With WineX, CrossOverOffice and Win4Lin programs, more and more Windows Apps and Games can be made to run under Linux, and in the meantime while you;'re dual-booting and testing Linux out, you;ll fall in love with it and get hooked on the many fine Linux-Only applications out there.
Why run windows programs in linux if you can run them in windows?  I've never understand how "emulating" windows half way is a plus for linux.btw since someone mentioned open office.org (official name since open office is a registered trademark of a different company) I'll have to agree its good, but its not near ms office in functionality.  It will work fine for most home users though.  I've used it a little bit, but it felt clunky (in both linux and windows), it was also too close to star office (man I hate star office).  Which makes sense since it was derived from star.  It does stand shoulder to shoulder with ms works and apple works.  But ms works is more compatable with ms office formats (oo.o is only about 85% compatable).I'd like to nominate Unreal Tournament 2k3 for the hall.  It and every other game that takes up multiple gigs on your hard drive but still requires the cd to be in the drive when you start.  Especially the games that check to make sure you have all of the cds upon installation, even cds that only contain "extras" (like disc 3 for ut2k3).

#77 OFFLINE   cybernut

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 08:14 PM

genaldar, on May 28 2003, 06:51 PM, said:

Why run windows programs in linux if you can run them in windows?  I've never understand how "emulating" windows half way is a plus for linux.
The point is to have the features offered by the Windows programs without all the liabilities (security vulnerabilities, program activiation, etc.) of running Windows.   Unfortunately, I have two problems with this: one is that I have to be able to work on and/or share files with Windows users.  If someone sends me a Word document and asks me to make revisions using "track changes," I can't use a Linux look-alike.  If someone wants me to share my PowerPoint presentation, I don't think I can send them the Linux equivalent.Also, there are some programs that I suspect simply do not have their equal in Linux.  Clipmate, Powermarks, and HyperSnap-DX come to mind.  I use these programs many times a day and can't imagine being without them. Cybernut

#78 OFFLINE   untergeek

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 08:50 PM

Another vote against including Paint Shop Pro. I haven't installed PSP8 yet (it's sitting here in the box...), but PSP does what I need it to do.But I would include/agree with:1. RealOne, or whatever they name it next. I use an older version without all the "pay us money" pop-up verbiage added to it.2. MS Messenger or any instant messenging program. MSM in particular, though, because it comes preinstalled. It can be uninstalled, though.3. Easy CD Creator, which flat out sucks. I use Nero and have had far fewer problems.4. Any spyware.5. Symantec's GoBack. I actually prefer System Restore, sad to say. Neither one is any great shakes, but System Restore has saved me much grief a couple of times.And I'm another person who registered just to post on PSP.

#79 OFFLINE   Cluttermagnet

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 09:57 PM

untergeek, on May 28 2003, 07:50 PM, said:

Another vote against including Paint Shop Pro. I haven't installed PSP8 yet (it's sitting here in the box...), but PSP does what I need it to do.But I would include/agree with:(snip)5. Symantec's GoBack. I actually prefer System Restore, sad to say. Neither one is any great shakes, but System Restore has saved me much grief a couple of times.And I'm another person who registered just to post on PSP.
Looks like a lot of folks seem to like PSP just fine. I bet it all depends on whether or not you learned on Adobe Photoshop (I didn't), also which PSP version you run. Sounds like v7 was too much 'me too' and they ruined the GUI from v6 and before. I like both v5 and 6.I would like to hear what GoBack did to get on your list. I run Roxio's GoBack 3.0 here and have been perfectly happy with it. I have run it on two different P4 Win98SE machines and it has definitely saved my bacon on several occasions. I would not bother with GoBack on WinXP, however. That would be rather pointless and duplicative. During a Google search where I read about the software's transfer to Symantec, I spotted an advertising result at the top of the Google page. Some outfit was selling back copies of the Roxio v3 for just under 19 dollars with free shipping thrown in. Not bad! (searched on "symantec goback) Without going into great detail, I have found it reliable every time I needed it, and it is relatively unobtrusive, always running in the background only, and rarely very busy unless you do a lot of file-intensive work or have just freshly defragged. Letting it reserve (hog?) 10 percent of my HD was never a problem, as my drive is a 40G and has plenty of space I probably will never use. If you care to play with partitions, you can finely control where it resides on your drive, and even its storage area size by specifying a custom size.Drive imaging is no doubt better. Some folks use both, I hear, plus do a lot of frequent backups of important file groups. Also Test Run by BB is an interesting 'save your butt' utility that creates 'sacrificial' duplicate registries for you to experiment on, and if you destroy your registry with 'bad' software installs, you can revert back to a fresh, undamaged registry copy at any time. It's freeware. Not for newbies, but not too hard to learn. (Only for Win95/98, nothing later. Requires DOS access)

#80 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 08:34 AM

genaldar, on May 28 2003, 06:51 PM, said:

Why run windows programs in linux if you can run them in windows?
simple answer:  if you dont want to use Windows, yet you want one key program with no real Linux equivalent (i.e. Dreamweaver) to run in Linux.

#81 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 08:45 AM

Welcome, Untergeek!  its nice to see this overwhelming response to "save Paint Shop Pro"  B)  And good point, EasyCD Creator should be included in this list.  It's probably responsible for billions of CD coasters littering our land fills. B)

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1. RealOne, or whatever they name it next. I use an older version without all the "pay us money" pop-up verbiage added to it.
ThunderRiver suggested a great alternative:  Real Alternative.  It looks like older version of Media Player, plays Real clips and Quicktime, and has ZERO ads and privacy issues.http://www.softnews....11-2-1-49.shtml

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2. MS Messenger or any instant messenging program. MSM in particular, though, because it comes preinstalled. It can be uninstalled, though.
I agree, ICQ, MSN and AOL belong here, but some IM like Trillian deserve a Hall of Fame for managing to talk to all clients in a much cleaner and non-intrusive format.  But i think MSN is worst of all because of the "built-into-Windows" attitude.

#82 OFFLINE   GolfProRM

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 09:34 AM

genaldar, on May 28 2003, 06:51 PM, said:

I'd like to nominate Unreal Tournament 2k3 for the hall.  It and every other game that takes up multiple gigs on your hard drive but still requires the cd to be in the drive when you start.  Especially the games that check to make sure you have all of the cds upon installation, even cds that only contain "extras" (like disc 3 for ut2k3).
I'm with you here!!  UT2k3 is a pain!  Don't really care for the gameplay either...  IMO, they took out everything that made UT great, and put in a bunch of crap!  Even on my nice machine (Athlon Xp2000, 512Mb DDR PC2700, GeForce4 Ti4200, etc.) it still doesn't run very well...  And the check install with all three CD's is stupid...Definitely worth a nomination! B)

#83 OFFLINE   nucatlue

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 08:08 PM

I would like to add - MS ActiveSync to the list. It may be only that I am first using it to connect to a Toshiba E335 but I have rarely had more problems with a piece of software.  Palm's Hotsync software was much easier to use and never caused problems.

#84 OFFLINE   RobertM

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 09:01 PM

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gengar56 wrote: windows messenger comes with windows xp on millions of computers, bugs you and is often exploited to show popup ads.
The "Messenger Service" popup ads (if you call some of them that...) you see are actually not related to Windows Messenger or MSN Messenger. They are a product of the Messenger service on XP that was meant for sending messages across networks--sort of like Winpopup in 9x but not with a whole dedicated program. But it didn't take long for spammers to figure out it could be abused. I like to keep mine on in case I get one that *is* from my (home) network, but I can stop them on a temporary basis by calling net.exe with paramaters "stop messenger," as in (Start | Run): net stop messenger. (Of course, you can also *permanently* disable the service if you want in Administrative Tools.)

#85 OFFLINE   Wacky Packs

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 05:29 AM

My 2 nominees:1. Apple Quicktime - People complain about Real and WMP.  Personally, I've never had much difficulty with those apps.  Now, Quicktime is another story.  Conflicts with an older version, ugly/stupid interface, and I cringe everytime I try to install kids software that requires this garbage.  About half the time, the program fails so I have actually lost money because of Apple.2. AVG - For some reason, some users like this program.  Everybody claims it finds viruses that Norton cannot.  Well, perhaps the reason is this program produces a significant amount of false positives.  The last thing I need is some AV program deleting/moving files it shouldn't.  Usually, I don't mind what other software applications others run.  However, I am fed up with that D*** footer I see everywhere claiming that the email was scanned by AVG.  I consider this no better than your typical spam and a waste of bandwidth.Anyway, no matter what anybody nominates here, there could only be one winner for the worst program.  It has got to be Outlook Express.  Remember that monopoly talk about IE and Netscape?  At least IE is a good browser.  Nobody talks about how everybody now uses that pitiful application, OE.  Everybody is already familiar with the security issues, but nobody talks about its bad interface.  Dumb design, poor navigation, and poor UI are among its problems.  Yet, other clients copy this look, so we have even more worthless clients.  If emails weren't bad enough, Windows users started using OE for newsgroups.  This program is unusable as a news client so when people start having problems, I try to help them.  Of course, they ignore me as because they think I am anti-MS or something when I suggest a switch.  It appears that nobody wants to admit that OE is a POS.

#86 OFFLINE   aphoria

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 11:25 AM

Wacky Packs, on May 30 2003, 04:29 AM, said:

2. AVG - ...  However, I am fed up with that D*** footer I see everywhere claiming that the email was scanned by AVG.  I consider this no better than your typical spam and a waste of bandwidth.
You can turn off the incoming/outgoing certification messages.  It's in the options somewhere.  I'm not at my main PC so I can't say exactly where.aphoria

#87 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 11:41 AM

AVG - AVG may have an ugly interface but that's no crime. It does a very good job. I have used AVG for a long time. I have never had any false positives. The few times it actually caught something, when I looked it up at Symantec's virus database, it was an actual viral threat.NOTE: The AVG Outlook Plugin is where folks can turn on/off the settings for placing the scanned message in an email.Personally, whether it visible in the actual email or in the header like virus programs on servers do (it takes the same bandwidth) and at least you know it was safe from known virii when it was sent.You want to talk about bandwidth eaters! Let's talk spam and chainletters! LOL! Now there's some bandwidth eaters! LOL!  :D  :D
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#88 OFFLINE   nlinecomputers

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 01:12 PM

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AVG - AVG may have an ugly interface but that's no crime. It does a very good job. I have used AVG for a long time. I have never had any false positives. The few times it actually caught something, when I looked it up at Symantec's virus database, it was an actual viral threat.
Same here I've never had a false positive.  The only anoying thing about AVG for me is its update service.  It doesn't do background updates.  You've got to be online at the time you set.  If your a broadband connection that is no big deal but for "grandma" who refuses to update it manually with her dial up account it is a problem.
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#89 OFFLINE   Spyrias

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 03:55 PM

I have to through in my vote to get PSP off the list as well.  I started on version seven when it first came out, I've found it a lot easier to use than photoshop.  I think Cluttermagnet hit the nail on the head, those who learned Photoshop will not like the interface of PSP because they arn't used to it.  PSP8 has some great new features, but takes to long to load, it tries to be too close to photoshop.  My nomination though is Macromedia Flash MX.  It stays in your memory when you close it, which means having to restart your computer every time you exit.  For something that costs that much you expect it to close properly.

#90 OFFLINE   henderrob

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 06:52 PM

Real One is my biggest nuisance.  Other than having Linux ruin my MBR during a recomile.

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 10:16 PM

Wacky Packs, on May 30 2003, 04:29 AM, said:

My 2 nominees:1. Apple Quicktime - People complain about Real and WMP.  Personally, I've never had much difficulty with those apps.  Now, Quicktime is another story.  Conflicts with an older version, ugly/stupid interface, and I cringe everytime I try to install kids software that requires this garbage.  About half the time, the program fails so I have actually lost money because of Apple.2. AVG - For some reason, some users like this program.  Everybody claims it finds viruses that Norton cannot.  Well, perhaps the reason is this program produces a significant amount of false positives.  The last thing I need is some AV program deleting/moving files it shouldn't.  Usually, I don't mind what other software applications others run.  However, I am fed up with that D*** footer I see everywhere claiming that the email was scanned by AVG.  I consider this no better than your typical spam and a waste of bandwidth.Anyway, no matter what anybody nominates here, there could only be one winner for the worst program.  It has got to be Outlook Express.  Remember that monopoly talk about IE and Netscape?  At least IE is a good browser.  Nobody talks about how everybody now uses that pitiful application, OE.  Everybody is already familiar with the security issues, but nobody talks about its bad interface.  Dumb design, poor navigation, and poor UI are among its problems.  Yet, other clients copy this look, so we have even more worthless clients.  If emails weren't bad enough, Windows users started using OE for newsgroups.  This program is unusable as a news client so when people start having problems, I try to help them.  Of course, they ignore me as because they think I am anti-MS or something when I suggest a switch.  It appears that nobody wants to admit that OE is a POS.
I hate quicktime too, especially in xp.  The look is horrible.  The worst part though is that stupid quicktime task it keeps adding to start up.  I have it set to control no file types and I got rid of the stupid system tray icon and told it to not load automatically any more.  I even told it not to update automatically.  But every time I open up quicktime it puts that task back in the registry for start up.  At least with windows messenger if you tell it not to load at start up it stops loading at start up. *grumbles about resource hogging do nothing apps*I also really dislike avg.  I used to use it along with incoluate it and another free av (can't remember the name but it was german).  They all had strong points and weaknesses so I used all 3, with only avg running in the background.  I got so tired of avg (no auto updates, it never seemed to download all available virus definitions, even on freshly built machines) that I broke down and bought norton system works.  btw I hate system works, I want the extra 10 bucks it cost me over the av program alone back.  The only part I use is the av, so I have no idea what I was thinking when I shelled out for the entire package.  Oh ya I do, I was thinking I'd start using the other stuff too.  Man I suck at shopping.

#92 OFFLINE   Scot

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 10:34 PM

Wow, I love this thread. My comments in this message will be mostly about Paint Shop Pro:

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Scot, was this some sort of 'reverse psychology' to get more users on the forum, by saying PSP is bad? 
Not consciously. I was thinking about programs for which I have a high annoyance reaction that doesn't go away. A bur under my saddle, so to speak. And PSP 7.0 pushed the VU meter high up the scale. I have liked every previous version of PSP before 7.0, and I've been using it since 1993 or 1994. I don't think you can honestly vote on this topic if you haven't at least used 7.0, and probably 8.0. If I had licensed copy of 6.0, I might still be happy with the program. Unfortunately, I don't. In a nutshell, v.7.0 is a travesty. Another poster in this thread made the point better, in fact, than I have.While most people disagree with me, it's not clear to me that the people who disagree with me have tried 7.0. Some skipped to 8.0. Many haven't gotten as far as 7.0. And I guess I'm going to have to pony up $100 for that version (or whatever they charge). I am sensitive to the vast number of people who disagree, though. Anyone who has used 7.0 and likes it (I think there have been one or two so far?), I'd love to hear from you, though.I have a new nomination: Adobe Acrobat. But to tell you the truth, it's not the program I have a problem with (although there are problems there, especially versionality and the way it installs). My big problem is that I HATE .PDF files. They nearly giant bitmaps. Most PDF makers haven't figured out how to make URLs clickable. They're bloatware if the files are long. There's always a sizing issue on your screen. They're annoying to read. They're not internally navigable. Give me a decently coded Web page any day over a .PDF.Whenever someone sends me one, unless I have to use it, I take great pleasure in deleting a PDF unread.Did I mention that I hate .PDF files?Ok, 'nuff said.-- Scot
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Posted 30 May 2003 - 11:28 PM

I know what you mean about pdfs.  I lost the manual for my discman and I forgot how to make it play randomly (shared button).  So I go to aiwa's website and get the manual.  Its 3 friggin' megs and its only 2 pages.  Great use of time for us dial up users.btw I hate dial up, I got spoiled at school.  I have a list of stuff to download once I get back to school.  I should just get dsl back for home, but I'm only here 4 months this summer and mine is the only pc now that my brother moved.I can't believe I forgot to add this again, you think on one of my posts in this thread I would've remembered.  I have psp 7 and I agree it isn't as nice as 5 (the version I had before).  I don't think it deserves to be in the hall of shame though, but then again I got mine with a steep student discount (it was required for a class).I also don't think windows media player (especially 9) is that bad.  It's more bloated than 6.4, but it runs better than 7 did on 2k (I downloaded it before I moved to xp) and better than 8 on xp (tried 8 for a few days before I downloaded it for xp).  It seemed less choppy on 2k (got it back when this system was an overclocked celeron 400 running at 450).I wouldn't add winamp 3 either.  I tried it and didn't like it, but at least the guys over at winamp are continuing the 2.x line.  And they're listening to what users liked in 3 and brought it over to 2.

#94 OFFLINE   basx

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 11:42 AM

Scot:I disagree with you I like PDF files a lot. As efficient as HTML is, you're not going to have average computer user hammer out the tags along with the content. It's too teduious. java script:emoticon(';)') Further HTML shows up differently with various browsers and I'm not a webmaster but a writer! :lol:Principally I  prefer PDF is that I'm fed up with Office file format fetish (OFFF)  I don't use Office and I loathe to save documents in its file formats. Everytime I have to send or recieve something in Office file formats, I perpetuate MS' predatory monopoly and I contribute to degraded computer skills. I once sent a file in RTF and the person couldn't open it! So I had to reluctantly send it again in DOC. C'mon! Then there's the prepetual hey your document formatting is messed  up due to my different printer metrics but you need to send another copy to me hassles. Or Hey MS changed the Office format yet again!  :P To get back to the hall of shame: REDMON- definitely one of the most computer unfriendly programs ever devised. Creating PDF files with free software shouldn't be an epic in proving your inner geekness. I just want to produce PDF documents from any Windows program   ;)  :P xavier

#95 OFFLINE   mrainey

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 03:31 PM

My nominee for least-compatible, most likely not to work, and most likely to screw up other applications or even totally trash a system is - Adaptec Easy CDCreator - at least through v5.x, at which point I gave up.  I know from talking with friends and reading lots of forum traffic that I am not alone.
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#96 OFFLINE   TomDavisSr

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 03:56 PM

I am happily using Outlook 2000 for a number of years and haven't had any major problems with it.  I think it should be taken off the list.RealOne Player is one that should be high on the list.Forte Agent Newsreader is a very good program but is a memory hog and, at least for me, runs inadequately on XP.Tom

#97 OFFLINE   HappyMan

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 04:24 PM

My Nomination for the Hall of Shame....Norton AntiVirus (any version ever made)While I like Norton Utilities, The antivirus program is a shameful piece of junk. It goofs the shut down procedure in WinXP and on Win2000 Server, it installs every single time the computer boots. That's sloppy, to say the least.--Mike Risner.

#98 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 09:20 PM

I agree with Scot on the fact that v7 is so bad.  I myself went back to v6 after using v7 for a bit, but now i think i'll upgrade to v8 (i'm still in trial mode).  i already got hooked on the One Step Auto Fix feature in v8.  very slick, seems to do a nice job of tweaking most photos to their optimum.i also agree with Norton Anti-virus.  The Symantec corporate version is nice and slim, but Norton AV 2003 is the biggest load of bloatware, and they try their best to install that ridiculus Norton Recyle Bin.  why do i need 2 levels of delete protection?  i can barely stand the recycling bin!   :) and also, Easy CD Creator...  great nomination,  mrainey!  so many many ruined CDs due to the pathetic software.  its amazing how much Roxio fell off the face of the earth;  they used to ship with every single CD writer, and now it's virtually all Nero Burn.  Roxio got beaten and their monopoly got destroyed by a unknown german software company.  (gives SuSE some hope then, eh?  :)  )   Last I heard, Roxio bought out napster.com website, and their are going to relaunch a pay version of napster with help of the big record companies.  maybe if they concentrated on making CD writing software instead of silly sure-to-fail venture.  :)

#99 OFFLINE   LilBambi

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 09:51 PM

Ditto on Roxio! I'll stick with my Nero!Although I wouldn't put PDF Files on the Hall of Shame list exactly, I would say this....PDF files are much nicer for creators (and they are really nice for creators) than for receivers, particularly on dialup.Creators have total control of how the file will be viewed right down to fonts and image locations and they know they will print as created regardless of the printer used.Having said that, PDF files are images and many PDF files are huge and like others have mentioned for such a small amount of actual information!They are also not screenreader friendly for the blind or sight impaired because they are in fact images which screenreaders can not read. Blind computer users are already paying $600-$1000 for basically the corner market on screenreader software. It is a travesty. Having to buy the full Adobe Acrobat or another program to convert PDF files just so they can convert the image to text so a screenreader can read it is way too much to ask.Also for any old user, the plugin for Adobe's Reader always tries to open them in the webpage if you just click on a link. If I see in the status bar that a link is going directly to a .pdf file, I will right click and save target as if I really want to read it otherwise I skip it.Don't get me wrong, I like PDF files ok, I even like to create them. But they can be very annoying and html files are much easier on the bandwidth, particularly on dialup and blind and/or sight impaired folks can actually read html pages for the most part. Heck I can even get M$ Peedy to read me webpages!Nuf said :)
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#100 OFFLINE   jbredmound

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 09:16 AM

Scot, I forgot all about Adobe and PDF! I had the "full suite" on my machine, and it caused more trouble than your average virus. Today, I have the reader, because I have to!I also do not like PDF files. I see some valid uses for them, but they are so completely overused as to become a major nuisance.Case in point; If you want to view (or download) just about anything from the State of Wisconsin website, you will need the reader. If I am asking for a form, I can understand, but everything? I have EasyCDCreator in my machine, and I consider it virtually worthless. It's reliability is totally unacceptable. It is a shame.




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