Netscape

[Ed_P]

PC World articleAnd you all thought it was going away. Eat your hearts out.

[Neil P]

PC World articleAnd you all thought it was going away.  Eat your hearts out.  

That whole Netscape Desktop Navigator seems like a gimmick, at best. And all "Netscape 7.2" will be is Mozilla 1.7 that is repackaged with some Netscape logos and some AOL garbage :-/. Its not that I don't like Netscape...I'd just rather use Mozilla (which is the same thing anyway) than support AOL. Especially after they canned all the Netscape workers last year.Also, I reported this April 7, see in my Firefox/T-Bird/Mozilla download info post:

Links last verified by:Me (steeler fan for life) on April 07, 2004Some new changes:*Slightly updated the Mozilla Summary -- added info about AOL releasing new Netscape builds

So there

[Ed_P]

So there

[nlinecomputers]

Netscape has been repackaged versions of Mozilla since version 6. I don't understand why anyone would still use it when mozilla is the EXACT same browser with the exception of the logos. And if you don't believe me download the code for yourself..... The only benifit is that they prepackage things like Java for you. But they also load it down with alot of bloat like ICQ, Winamp, Real Player, AIM(ick!). Why you'd want all that crap is beyound me.So Netscape has a new browser. Big deal. It's 15 lines of code changed and a couple of amimated gif files.And I agree with steeler that I don't care to support AOL in any manner.

[Ed_P]

Well I don't use ICQ or Winamp and certainly not Real Player and rarely AIM. So when I do the custom install I don't load them.In that the browser is free I don't think AOL will make much off of me, or anyone else.I do like having a built in mail client and a major corporation supporting the product that I can write to or call and complain to if something doesn't work. I don't know who to call for Mozilla. And I love being unique.

[nlinecomputers]

What support? There is NO support staff at Netscape. The number on Netscape's site is the company used at Mozilla which is Decision One.http://help.netscape.com/netscape7/index.h...ml?cp=brictrpr3http://support.decisionone.com/mozilla/moz...a_help_main.htmYou'll speak to the same techs as like I've been saying it is the same program and even pay the same rates but one phone will answer Netscape and the other Mozilla.There is no tech support at Netscape. AOL fired them ALL. Netscape is now about 5 people all in MARKETING.You say the big protection of a major company how can you have that if THEY FIRED THEM ALL! Not that it mattered much. Netscape was outsourced to Mozilla years ago. The only difference is that the Moz guys sign there own paychecks now and that they got paid to "write" *giggle* Netscape 7.2 instead of being simply ordered to.

[Ed_P]

http://help.netscape.com/netscape7/index.h...ml?cp=brictrpr3Call 1(800) 411-0707http://support.decisionone.com/mozilla/moz...a_help_main.htmCall Now! 1-888-586-4539 I don't know but they look like different numbers to me. They look the same to anyone else? I don't have my glasses on.

The only difference is that the Moz guys sign there own paychecks now

They get paid!! I thought Mozilla was Open Source, ie volunteers.

[nlinecomputers]

They are different numbers but they are both to the same company. Decision One, a hired support company. http://www.decisiononecorporate.com/

They get paid!! I thought Mozilla was Open Source, ie volunteers.

Not all of them are volunteers. Some are paid either by grant money or they are employed by other firms to work on Mozilla. IBM, Sun, and Red Hat are big contributors of PAID labor to the Mozilla project. AOL used to be but they pulled out. But they did provide the seed money for the foundation. Except for the name AOL provides no support to Mozilla any longer.http://www.mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=4544

[Ed_P]

Some are paid either by grant money or they are employed by other firms to work on Mozilla. IBM, Sun, and Red Hat are big contributors of PAID labor to the Mozilla project.

Interesting.And why are they contributing money to this? What's to be gained?

[nlinecomputers]

Why does anyone donate time and/or money to ANY open source project?To advance knowledge to delevop a product they intend to use. Mozilla is more then a browser. Entire applications can and have been written based on the code.

[Ed_P]

Why does anyone donate time and/or money to ANY open source project?

I don't know, tax write offs I would assume. Like giving to the United Way.

[Neil P]

(Joining the conversation very late)NOTE: It is possible that some of this information is inaccurate, I am just going off of my memory :PMany of Mozilla's developers are actually paid (not to say ALL, as many many patches are contributed by volunteers who make no money).There are quite a few people who work directly for the Mozilla Foundation (since it was created; many (if not all) of these people are former Netscape employees)Asa Dotzler, Ben Goodger, Brendan Eich (creator of JavaScript), David Baron....there are more.Bryan Ryner works for IBM, Christopher Blizzard (and Christopher Aillon now) work for Red Hat...There are even developers that get paid to work on other browsers!!! (Dave Hyatt works on Safari at Apple, Mike Pinkerton works for Apple too I believe, Ian Hickson works for Opera).Many of these companies pay people (such as Chris Blizzard) to develop Mozilla for them, for example, Blizzard will make sure the versions of Mozilla that get included with Red Hat are good, and he is usually responsible for fixing/updating them.(Many weblogs of Mozilla People are online too)

[Ed_P]

Interesting. Thanks steeler fan for life. I was under the impression that Open Source coding was all done by volunteers and hobbists. I'm not going to give up on my Netscape but I'm not as adverse to a Mozilla option now.

[beeTee]

Microsoft's Internet Explorer held 96 percent of the browser market in March 2004, leaving just 4 percent to be divided between Netscape, Apple Computer's Safari, and other browsers including Opera, from Opera Software and Mozilla,

What's the take on these numbers. only 4% of computer users NOT using IE? is this the whole world, or just the states? Linux users included? How do they come up with these numbers, anyways??:blink:I got turned on to Mozilla (and Firebird/fox) here at Scot's, and have never looked back. When I DO have to use IE, it's such a drag and get off of it asap. I can't imagine the internet without a tabbed browser and pop-up blockers at the least.

[Ed_P]

How do they come up with these numbers, anyways??

Without knowing the source of your quote hard to say.But similar stats I believe indicate it's a world wide number. And it believe it's based on server counts of websites accessed thus is OS independent.

I can't imagine the internet without a tabbed browser and pop-up blockers at the least.

Me either, that's why I use Netscape, which is even a smaller percentage than Mozilla.

[nlinecomputers]

Ed,You may find this page of interest:http://devedge.netscape.com/central/gecko/...003/comparison/It is mostly correct. Netscape doesn't have inhouse tech support anymore and mozilla does have a formal support unit now. Both outsoucred to the same company at Desision One.Also from the Mozilla FAQ at: http://www.mozilla.org/start/1.5/faq/general.html#ns7

Netscape 7.1 is based on Mozilla 1.4. Both applications share almost the identical features, such as tabbed browsing, custom keywords, and Sidebar. Exceptions are additions of proprietary features such as the support for Netscape WebMail and AOL mail. In general, Netscape 7 and Mozilla will display Web pages and read mail the same.

History of Netscape and Mozilla can be found here. I think you'll find that you been using an "open source, hobbist", browser since 1998.http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/history/netscape.htm

[beeTee]

How do they come up with these numbers, anyways??

Without knowing the source of your quote hard to say.

I was just quoting the article from "PC World article" in the opening post

[Ed_P]

I was just quoting the article from "PC World article" in the opening post

oops!Well the story says the stats were "according to San Diego-based Web tracking company WebSideStory" which is an interesting company to say the least. You can also see their homepage at WestSideStory.com.

[Neil P]

Google also has their Zeitgeist which lists many things like browser usage, and OS usage. The graphs list IE 6 as by FAR the highest used browser. The graph is teeny tiny though, so its hard to discern who is who at the bottom there.OS usage has Windows (XP + 98 + 2000 + NT + 95 [in order of usage]) at 91%. "Other" and Mac are at 4% each, and Linux is at a scant 1%.

[beeTee]

Well the story says the stats were "according to San Diego-based Web tracking company WebSideStory" which is an interesting company to say the least.  You can also see their homepage at WestSideStory.com.

Thanks for the links, though I'll have to check them out tomorrow night. I'm off here in a few minutes, and going straight home to crash. awake now for about 23 hours and my shift is about to end. (it's 06:30 here) cya

[Ed_P]

You may find this page of interest:http://devedge.netscape.com/central/gecko/...003/comparison/

Wow!! Excellent link nline. Thanks! What I don't understand, from reading that page, is why you aren't using Netscape. "Generally more end-user centric""No daily builds available for public to check up-to-date bug fix status""adds Netscape's own extensive quality assurance process""Tested and certified with more websites""Extensively tested and officially certified by the Netscape QA group"It is clearly the better browser for the masses.

[Ed_P]

awake now for about 23 hours and my shift is about to end.

Drive safely beeTee. What is that you do may I ask?

[Neil P]

What I don't understand, from reading that page, is why you aren't using Netscape.

What I don't understand is why you still are using Netscape The "Netscape QA Group" doesn't exist. All Netscape employees were fired. Their "own extensive quality assurance process" may be one good thing, but Mozilla has some fairly good QA already. The "end user centric" part is a matter of perspective, as I think Mozilla is just about the same as Netscape (without Java and AIM and Netscape logos). No Daily builds is a bad thing, as you only get the new features/bug fixes when AOL feels like giving them to you, not as soon as they are available. And the "tested and certified with more websites" doesn't mean anything, if it works in Netscape then it will work in Mozilla (99.4% of the time)But I guess its just a matter of preference

[nlinecomputers]

Stealer has my point exactly. Ed I don't understand why you are using an outdated buggy browser. Netscape 7.1 IS Mozilla 1.4 which was released about 1 year ago. Mozilla is currently at 1.6 and has fixed several bugs, some quite serious, that are in both 1.4 and Netscape 7.1.You seems to not want to use Mozilla because of some predigest idea that open source software can't be any good. "It's all done by volunteers." Well as I hope we have shown you the Mozilla project isn't some hobbyist clan of weekenders. Most are hired professionals and it is the same group that wrote both code groups.You want to use Netscape for the so called support from a commercial company. Well in the first place the "support" that was at Netscape was in the Mozilla office at Netscape many of them were volunteers or worked for other companies like Red Hat. And now they no longer have jobs at Netscape. AOL fired them ALL.All the lists of benefits on the left side of that link I gave you. THEY NO LONGER EXIST. The so called testing, the Q&A group are all gone. Netscape LITERALLY is now only a nameplate. So again I ask you. Why do YOU hang onto a buggy outdated browser?

[zlim]

Let me throw my own monkey wrench in here. I question the statistics also that 96% use IE. I use AdMuncher and I can specify what I want my browser identified as. My 2K machine must be real secure because alot of websites, including Microsoft's update can't tell what browser I'm using (I go there running IE and it says I'm using a non-supported browser). If I can fool microsoft, other sites can be fooled too.How many people use AdMuncher and put in as the browser IE just to get some sites to load?What sites monitored also would be helpful. Obviously newbies or very casual internet surfers would not frequent the same sites as tweakers.Just some thoughts to stir up more confusion. (I was a math teacher so I look at polls/statistics from a "How to lie with statistics" background).

[beeTee]

awake now for about 23 hours and my shift is about to end.

Drive safely beeTee. What is that you do may I ask?

Just to make it clear, I had only been working 12 hours, awake for 23 (the night shift guy called in sick and I took the shifts).Always drive safely, you gotta over here!!. but it's only 17 km to home . Anyways, I'm a satellite controller. You can check out the Gravity Thread to find out about one of the projects we're working.Now back to the Subject at hand!!

[Neil P]

Let me throw my own monkey wrench in here. I question the statistics also that 96% use IE. I use AdMuncher and I can specify what I want my browser identified as. My 2K machine must be real secure because alot of websites, including Microsoft's update can't tell what browser I'm using (I go there running IE and it says I'm using a non-supported browser). If I can fool microsoft, other sites can be fooled too.How many people use AdMuncher and put in as the browser IE just to get some sites to load?What sites monitored also would be helpful. Obviously newbies or very casual internet surfers would not frequent the same sites as tweakers.Just some thoughts to stir up more confusion.  (I was a math teacher so I look at polls/statistics from a "How to lie with statistics" background).

zlim, thats a good point. Many browsers use a spoofed user agent, and others allow you to change it. There is a User Agent Switcher extension that allows you to change your user agent to a variety of UA's, like IE6/Win, Opera, Netscape 4.x and others.Also, many user agent sniffers do it wrong. My UA isMozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8a) Gecko/20040421 Firefox/0.8.0+And many websites will see the "5.0" as what version of the browser I'm using, and tell me that I need "Netscape 6.x or higher". When in reality, my browser is significantly newer than Netscape 6.x.Look at Konqueror's UA:Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Konqueror/3.2; Linux; i686) (KHTML, like Gecko)A UA sniffer would call this Mozilla, when it should call it Konqueror. Basically, UA's need to be standardized, or the sniffing needs to get better.Back to zlim's point though: I could be running Firefox on Linux, but use the UA Switcher extension and Google's Zeitgeist would put me in with IE6/Windows.

[Guest JoS]

you are using an outdated buggy browser

Netscape 7.1 IS Mozilla 1.4

And why does mozilla release buggy browsers?

No Daily builds is a bad thing,

And having to install fixes daily is a good thing? It sounds like someone isn't doing QA at all. Can you imagine if Windows released daily patches for IE?Stick to your guns EdP.

[nlinecomputers]

And why does Mozilla release buggy browsers?

Hee Hee. That's funny. I can respect a good shot when I see one! I'm sure that you are still using the bug free versions of Windows XP, Linux, or Mac OS X to make that statement. Oh I get it your running Windows ME!

And having to install fixes daily is a good thing? It sounds like someone isn't doing QA at all. Can you imagine if Windows released daily patches for IE?

I agree there. I'm running the beta of 1.7 but I'm not brave enough to run the daily builds. Nor do I suggest anyone do. It's a beta after all. However 1.6 is considered stable and 1.7 must be close as Netscape 7.2 will use 1.7 as the code base. So once 7.2 is out it will be the current most stable version until 1.8 hits....:)Had AOL kept the Netscape team and not fired them all Ed's position would be valid. Or if he was using the features that ship with Netscape like AIM, ICQ, AOLmail, or even Java. But he said he is not.Now Netscape is just a name plate. Dodge Neon or Plymouth Neon what is the difference? There's no advantage to using it over Mozilla. I could legally take the Mozilla 1.7, when it goes gold, code rebrand it and call "N-Line Browser" and it would be just as good as Mozilla is now or the Netscape 7.2 browser. And there would be just as many people working to support it as the Netscape browser.

[Neil P]

As of right now, Mozilla has around 22896 Bugs that are open Many of these bugs are UNCONFIRMED, and they could be duplicates of reports that are already filed (which many are), and bugs can also be INVALID (bugs reported that aren't really bugs--usually intended features). Also, these bugs can be WORKSFORME (self explanatory), WONTFIX (again). If it doesn't fall into one of those categories, then it can be worked on, and eventually fixed. With a Constantly changing codebase (just changes from the last 24 hours), how are something like bugs not expected?When is the last time Internet Explorer had a new feature added to it? Mozilla gets new features all the time, and they fix bugs all the time also. Nightly builds, which get new changes all the time, have many bugs. Releases have much more QA time, and a lot more time goes into reducing the crashes, quirks, and general anomalies down to as few as possible. Mozilla has just made a branch in its codebase for the imminent release of 1.7 Final. On this branch, no drastic bug causing changes will be allowed to be put in (all those can stay on the trunk, which is open for 1.8a checkins). In the mean time, all of the bugs introduced by the old changes will be worked on, and many will be fixed. Right now, there are 14 Bugs that are blocking the release of Mozilla 1.7. It cannot (in theory) be released until at least these 14 bugs are fixed [in theory, because the drivers can always decide that a certain bug no longer blocks a release].Why doesn't IE have a new patch everyday? Maybe the IE developers don't care as much as Mozilla's......