Why i do not think Linux will become a pc standard for the masses.

[raymac46]

Even a more "advanced user" distro like Debian Sid or Arch can be used by a new person provided that some one knowledgeable is around to keep it up to date and running well. My wife used Arch on a netbook while at her mother's house and had no issues. It is very stable once installed properly.

[raymac46]

OpenSUSE also installs and sets up with GUI. I haven't had to resort to a command line in years.

 

I am sure a new user would get along just fine with OpenSUSE as well. I suggest Mint to my folks because I find most Windows users relate well to the Cinnamon desktop. And I am most familiar with the Debian way of doing things.

[Peachy]

Another distro to try is the Debian-based Pixel. It's a spin of Raspian from the folks at the Raspberry Pi foundation for x86.

[saturnian]

Maybe Linux won't ever "become a pc standard for the masses," but I sure am glad I switched over to Linux from Windows several years back. Even running Arch, I try to bring in updates at least once a week, and often there are LOTS of packages to update, but for some reason it still seems less painful than what I remember with Windows.

 

Very cool -- and encouraging -- that with distros like openSUSE and Linux Mint, just about everything can be done via GUI. While I was running openSUSE, I rarely used the command line. Personally, I actually prefer CLI for a lot of things (that's how I'm updating in Debian these days, too), but I know that most people don't feel that way.

[raymac46]

Well my 91 year old client would never want to learn about the CLI but she does manage to keep her machine updated because she can spot the applet in the panel with the little "i" on it. Then she launches the updater. I have it set to do the minimum updating needed and not to install a new kernel for example without my supervision. So far it's worked.

Linux really has to work at two levels to be successful - provide ease of update and security to the naive user and the CLI / other tech tools for the enthusiast. I know Linux Mint does this pretty well.

I do my best work when I fix up an old Core Duo for a senior who can't afford a new Windows 10 machine and should not be running Vista or XP. I never dual boot in this situation. It's Linux or nothing.

[saturnian]

There's still very little demand for computers and laptops that ship with Linux preinstalled, so manufacturers and big box stores can't really profit by putting them out there. Does anybody think that situation is gonna change anytime soon? Doing Linux installations for elderly clients is great, but the market impact of doing that seems negligible, doesn't it? Young folks I know, only a few of them have even heard of Linux, or of Raspberry Pi, even; they're buying Macbooks, smartphones, iPads, and Windows laptops. That's what's happening.

[securitybreach]

Yes but a lot of people are buying Chromebooks now which run the Linux kernel so it is getting out there but people are not aware of it.

 

In all actuality, Linux has already dominated most markets except for the desktop market. Linux owns the server market, mobile market, supercomputers, smart appliances, smartwatches, cable boxes, smart cars, etc.

[saturnian]

Yes but a lot of people are buying Chromebooks now which run the Linux kernel so it is getting out there but people are not aware of it.

 

In all actuality, Linux has already dominated most markets except for the desktop market. Linux owns the server market, mobile market, supercomputers, smart appliances, smartwatches, cable boxes, smart cars, etc.

 

Yeah, but of course it's the desktop market that we're talking about in this thread, I guess. I'm gonna start asking people, especially younger folks, a few questions: How much use do you have for a computer or laptop? Would you purchase a Chromebook? Would you purchase a computer that came preinstalled with Linux (not a Chromebook)?

[securitybreach]

Yes but a lot of people are buying Chromebooks now which run the Linux kernel so it is getting out there but people are not aware of it.

 

In all actuality, Linux has already dominated most markets except for the desktop market. Linux owns the server market, mobile market, supercomputers, smart appliances, smartwatches, cable boxes, smart cars, etc.

 

Yeah, but of course it's the desktop market that we're talking about in this thread, I guess. I'm gonna start asking people, especially younger folks, a few questions: How much use do you have for a computer or laptop? Would you purchase a Chromebook? Would you purchase a computer that came preinstalled with Linux (not a Chromebook)?

 

 

Well my point was that no one is really pushing Linux to the desktop market as most of the focus is on other things. Most people only use the browser so they could be on any platform/OS. Heck you do not even need a window's computer to use Microsoft Office as it is now available via the browser. We are in the minority as far as actually using the computer for computing. Nowadays computers are simply gateways to the net.

[raymac46]

I agree that converting one user at a time won't move the needle much when it comes to market share. I'm just happy that we do have options to restore old hardware and make it available to someone who otherwise wouldn't have anything. Knowing what I do now, I doubt even I would buy a computer with Linux pre-installed. Just as easy to build your own desktop or get an older Thinkpad if you want a laptop.

A lot of young people just use a smartphone but that wouldn't work for me ( screen too small, fat fingers.)

[V.T. Eric Layton]

The demand for desktop systems in general has been lessening more and more each year. Nowadays, only gamers and geeks used desktops. Most folks have gone to mobile (phones, tablets, and laptops). In another few years, you won't even see a desktop system at the big box stores.

[securitybreach]

The demand for desktop systems in general has been lessening more and more each year. Nowadays, only gamers and geeks used desktops. Most folks have gone to mobile (phones, tablets, and laptops). In another few years, you won't even see a desktop system at the big box stores.

 

Agreed

 

I will continue to build my own desktop systems... That said, I have mobile devices as well... 4 laptops, 2 smartphones, 2 tablets, etc.

[Hedon James]

Maybe I'm just crazy (nice word for paranoid?), but am I the only linux desktop user who doesn't even want linux to become a "pc standard for the masses"? I'd like to see it grab a market share that's competitive with OSX....large enough to no longer be ignored, or brushed aside...but not large enough to be a viable target for hackers, phishers, scammers, and the like. Somewhere around +/- 10% seems like a sweet spot to me. JMO...

[securitybreach]

Maybe I'm just crazy (nice word for paranoid?), but am I the only linux desktop user who doesn't even want linux to become a "pc standard for the masses"? I'd like to see it grab a market share that's competitive with OSX....large enough to no longer be ignored, or brushed aside...but not large enough to be a viable target for hackers, phishers, scammers, and the like. Somewhere around +/- 10% seems like a sweet spot to me. JMO...

 

I think the same way..

[saturnian]

Well my point was that no one is really pushing Linux to the desktop market as most of the focus is on other things.

 

Good point.

 

Knowing what I do now, I doubt even I would buy a computer with Linux pre-installed.

 

I would consider doing so, under the right circumstances, and if the price was right.

 

When we talk about "Linux on the desktop," I'm actually thinking of laptops/notebooks as well, not just what we've always called "PCs" or "desktop computers." Partly because I've actually been using my laptops as desktop computers for some years now (and that isn't normal, I guess) -- my laptops almost never leave home, and most of the time I refer to them as my "computers." I don't have a real desktop PC at this time.

 

In my situation, I don't really need anything more mobile than a phone (which I mainly use only for phone calls and texts). Lol, when I take one of my little road trips, which I've been doing a few times each year, I leave my laptops at home, and I'm actually kinda happy to be "off the grid" for a few days, so I don't even go online with my phone on those trips (which usually consist of short jaunts around New Mexico and Arizona, especially the northern parts of these two states -- lovely!).

 

When I was first getting started with Linux, my first two "Linux computers" were a notebook and a traditional desktop PC, both of which came with Linux preinstalled -- Linspire on the notebook, Xandros on the PC. Those computers gave me an introduction to the Linux world at a time when I had neither the time, the inclination, or the knowledge to install Linux myself. Also, they were both fairly inexpensive.

 

I played around with those for several months while continuing to use my Windows PC for more serious stuff. Then I finally got around to replacing Linspire and Xandros with other distros, which went very well since those two computers were, of course, quite Linux-compatible.

 

So it's sad to me that when I walk into a big box store around here, I don't see any laptops/notebooks that come with Linux preinstalled. I mean, except for Chromebooks. I wonder how a Chromebook would compare, as an intro to Linux, to that old Linspire notebook; I'm not so sure that it's quite as easy to install a different distro on a Chromebook, although I know that it isn't too difficult to do.

 

But I'd like to see something else like that, and in that general price range, for folks who might want to sort of test the Linux waters kinda like I did at first. Something that ships with perhaps Linux Mint or openSUSE instead of ChromeOS, and that's a little bigger and better than a Chromebook, but being sold inside a big box store alongside the Chromebooks. Not gonna happen, I guess.

[raymac46]

My initial forays into Linux were on old hardware - my first Linux desktop was about 6 years old and the laptop I got at a thrift shop was about 10 (though built like a tank.)

I have some experience with pre-installed Linux on netbooks - these were made around 2008/9.

• Acer - great Linux hardware, bad distro.
  
• Dell - bad Linux hardware, bad distro.
  

So my pre-installed experience is quite negative. Back 10 years ago the OEMs put a totally dumbed down non Windows like interface on their Linux models and then wondered why everyone thought they sucked.

I don't have easy access to System 76 / ZaReason machines here. I am now totally sold on older Thinkpads as a Linux platform. They work great if you avoid the switchable graphics models and just stick to Intel. These machines are pretty easy to find locally. As for a desktop I agree with Josh - just build what you want. The fact that Linux extends the life of hardware means a good desktop will keep going a long time. Mine is now over 4 years old and it still runs fast and does everything I want.

[Hedon James]

Referencing the discussions regarding OEM linux installations on hardware...I'd like to see a VirtualBox computer, where VirtualBox is a "shim" layer on top of UEFI/BIOS and the end user chooses their OS. If they want to spend $120 on a Windows license, so be it, but I imagine a LOT of folks will look into Linux distros at that point. And a VirtualBox machine would make it very easy to backup, export your machine to new hardware (exactly as it was before), beef up the "virtual hardware" as the real hardware allows it, or even (GASP....) try something different with no risk whatsoever.

 

Not sure of the practicality of that idea, but I think that would be a MONSTER hit!

[raymac46]

The only problem I see with VBox is that the simulated graphics / Internet connection can be a little glitchy. Otherwise a great idea. You would need something to run VBox on though would you not?

Also count me in as another paranoid user who really doesn't care that much about massive Linux market share. I honestly think Linux desktop will continue as a DIY operating system by and large. Younger mobile folks will continue to use Chrome O/S and/or Android and be none the wiser.

[Peachy]

Referencing the discussions regarding OEM linux installations on hardware...I'd like to see a VirtualBox computer, where VirtualBox is a "shim" layer on top of UEFI/BIOS and the end user chooses their OS. If they want to spend $120 on a Windows license, so be it, but I imagine a LOT of folks will look into Linux distros at that point. And a VirtualBox machine would make it very easy to backup, export your machine to new hardware (exactly as it was before), beef up the "virtual hardware" as the real hardware allows it, or even (GASP....) try something different with no risk whatsoever.

 

Not sure of the practicality of that idea, but I think that would be a MONSTER hit!

 

Actually, you can sort of do this now, but not using VBox particularly. Most modern boot loaders allow you to multiboot virtual disk files. Even Windows-based boot loaders. Think of Canonical's old WUBI setup where from Windows you'd install Ubuntu as a second OS but it was really an .img file. Some Windows SKUs allow them to be installed to a .vhdx file and then you can choose to boot from that. Sure you could have multiple partitions and do a true multi-boot installation, but this sort of installation dispenses with that requirement. The cool part is that you still get the advantages of full access to hardware and not a virtual hardware layer abstraction as with running a hypervisor. It makes backing up your OS easy as copying the disk file.

[Hedon James]

Referencing the discussions regarding OEM linux installations on hardware...I'd like to see a VirtualBox computer, where VirtualBox is a "shim" layer on top of UEFI/BIOS and the end user chooses their OS. If they want to spend $120 on a Windows license, so be it, but I imagine a LOT of folks will look into Linux distros at that point. And a VirtualBox machine would make it very easy to backup, export your machine to new hardware (exactly as it was before), beef up the "virtual hardware" as the real hardware allows it, or even (GASP....) try something different with no risk whatsoever.

 

Not sure of the practicality of that idea, but I think that would be a MONSTER hit!

 

Actually, you can sort of do this now, but not using VBox particularly. Most modern boot loaders allow you to multiboot virtual disk files. Even Windows-based boot loaders. Think of Canonical's old WUBI setup where from Windows you'd install Ubuntu as a second OS but it was really an .img file. Some Windows SKUs allow them to be installed to a .vhdx file and then you can choose to boot from that. Sure you could have multiple partitions and do a true multi-boot installation, but this sort of installation dispenses with that requirement. The cool part is that you still get the advantages of full access to hardware and not a virtual hardware layer abstraction as with running a hypervisor. It makes backing up your OS easy as copying the disk file.

 

That's what I'm talking about! I'd like to see THIS become a "pc standard for the masses". Whether is a VirtualBox OS, VMWare OS, Box OS....or whatever nomenclature is chosen...same concept applies. I think this would be a huge hit and could possibly gain quite a bit of traction. JMO...

[saturnian]

I have some experience with pre-installed Linux on netbooks - these were made around 2008/9.

• Acer - great Linux hardware, bad distro.
  
• Dell - bad Linux hardware, bad distro.
  

 

Which distros did those ship with? Just curious...

 

By the way, I don't think that Linspire and Xandros on my two Linux preinstalled machines were all that great, either. Well, Xandros might have been better than I'm remembering, but I didn't use it for very long before installing something else over it. But what struck me (especially about Linspire) was that they were both trouble-free for me, compared to my Windows XP system. I think that was the most eye-opening thing.

[Peachy]

Dell has a nice Developer Edition laptop that has Ubuntu 16.04 LTS pre-installed. https://thenextweb.com/gadgets/2017/06/26/dell-precision-5520-developer-edition-a-truly-amazing-ubuntu-mobile-workstation/

 

They have a less expensive XPS 13 laptop with Ubuntu 14.04 pre-installed.

[securitybreach]

Dell has a nice Developer Edition laptop that has Ubuntu 16.04 LTS pre-installed. https://thenextweb.c...le-workstation/

 

They have a less expensive XPS 13 laptop with Ubuntu 14.04 pre-installed.

 

Yeah the XPS is an amazing line. I would love to have an XPS DE but they cost a fortune.

[raymac46]

I have some experience with pre-installed Linux on netbooks - these were made around 2008/9.

• Acer - great Linux hardware, bad distro.
  
• Dell - bad Linux hardware, bad distro.
  

 

Which distros did those ship with? Just curious...

 

By the way, I don't think that Linspire and Xandros on my two Linux preinstalled machines were all that great, either. Well, Xandros might have been better than I'm remembering, but I didn't use it for very long before installing something else over it. But what struck me (especially about Linspire) was that they were both trouble-free for me, compared to my Windows XP system. I think that was the most eye-opening thing.

Acer: Linpus Lite. If you tried really hard you could identify it as some sort of Xfce desktop but it had the worst interface I have ever seen. Replaced with Ubuntu Netbook edition and many other distros after that.

Dell: Customized version of Ubuntu 8.04 - bad looking desktop that didn't resemble anything useful and because of the really poor Linux unfriendly graphics could not be upgraded to Ubuntu 9 or anything else. It took years for Intel to come up with anything that gave the native resolution and even then it was only a 2D graphics solution. Also Broadcom wifi that really sucked. Ask HJ what he thinks of Intel Poulsbo graphics for Linux.

Having seen how good Linux could be when I installed it myself on the right hardware, I thought both these OEMs did a rotten job. Put me totally off the idea of getting a decent Linux machine from any maker.

Edited January 1, 2018 by raymac46

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Maybe I'm just crazy (nice word for paranoid?), but am I the only linux desktop user who doesn't even want linux to become a "pc standard for the masses"? I'd like to see it grab a market share that's competitive with OSX....large enough to no longer be ignored, or brushed aside...but not large enough to be a viable target for hackers, phishers, scammers, and the like. Somewhere around +/- 10% seems like a sweet spot to me. JMO...

 

I'm with you here, also.

[goretsky]

Hello,

 

One of my colleagues has created a series of HOWTO articles for doing various things in Linux:

 

http://cheatsheet.logicalwebhost.com/

 

It may be a little ISP-centric, as he runs one of those on the side.

 

Perhaps it will be of use/reference to some of you.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

[securitybreach]

Hello,

 

One of my colleagues has created a series of HOWTO articles for doing various things in Linux:

 

http://cheatsheet.logicalwebhost.com/

 

It may be a little ISP-centric, as he runs one of those on the side.

 

Perhaps it will be of use/reference to some of you.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

Nice, thanks.

[goretsky]

Hello,

 

He's very amenable to questions, updates and suggestions, in case you have any.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

 

Hello,

 

One of my colleagues has created a series of HOWTO articles for doing various things in Linux:

 

http://cheatsheet.logicalwebhost.com/

 

It may be a little ISP-centric, as he runs one of those on the side.

 

Perhaps it will be of use/reference to some of you.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

Nice, thanks.

[securitybreach]

Hello,

 

He's very amenable to questions, updates and suggestions, in case you have any.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

 

Hello,

 

One of my colleagues has created a series of HOWTO articles for doing various things in Linux:

 

http://cheatsheet.logicalwebhost.com/

 

It may be a little ISP-centric, as he runs one of those on the side.

 

Perhaps it will be of use/reference to some of you.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

Nice, thanks.

 

Well I am familar with 95% of that but thanks

[Peachy]

I was reading a prediction that we may see a developer shift from Windows and MacOS to Linux because of Canonical's shift to GNOME in the upcoming Ubuntu 18.04 LTS. I find that rather optimistic but you never can tell. The argument being that GNOME has won the Linux window manager, hence desktop war, and KDE is doomed.