Clutter Learns Linux

[b2cm]

it won't let me save images of C: to the new 160G HD I just put in for him, using either Bing or PQ Drive Image 5.0. No idea yet why that is- one or the other has always worked for me in the past.

Try DriveImageXML instead. Then when reinstalling XP leave some space for Ubunto.

[Cluttermagnet]

Try DriveImageXML instead. Then when reinstalling XP leave some space for Ubunto.

Hmmm-You know- I took a good look at that one, researched it a bit in forums, looking at user comments. It looks a bit geeky right now, what with having to slipstream it into a Bart CD and such. I think I'll stick with BootitNG and Drive Image 5.0 for now. They are relatively painless to use. I also got hold of a free copy of Acronis True Image 7.0 and the perpetual serial number from the folks at Acronis, so I'm OK to go with that one, too, when I get some time to learn it. It's a little geeky to set up, as well, if you want it to run only 'on demand' and not always in the background. Some clever .bat files are available to accomplish this. TI7 will still work in 98SE, the current TI 10 will not.What works in Linux? Does that DriveImageXML work in that OS? Any others? What is easy for non-geeks to start with?

[Urmas]

What works in Linux?

Creating partition images? In Ubuntu? "Our" Frank is the man with thousand and one images... see these links (two slighly different approaches):HOWTO: Backup with PartimageUsing PartImage in Ubuntu

[striker]

Hmmm-You know- I took a good look at that one, researched it a bit in forums, looking at user comments. It looks a bit geeky right now, what with having to slipstream it into a Bart CD and such. I think I'll stick with BootitNG and Drive Image 5.0 for now. They are relatively painless to use. I also got hold of a free copy of Acronis True Image 7.0 and the perpetual serial number from the folks at Acronis, so I'm OK to go with that one, too, when I get some time to learn it. It's a little geeky to set up, as well, if you want it to run only 'on demand' and not always in the background. Some clever .bat files are available to accomplish this. TI7 will still work in 98SE, the current TI 10 will not.What works in Linux? Does that DriveImageXML work in that OS? Any others? What is easy for non-geeks to start with?

I have some very bad experiences with TI 7: it can't do anything at all with SATA ... maybe it was how the clients machine was set up at which I tested it, dunno. But it left a bad taste here, so be prepared Clutter.

[ebrke]

What works in Linux? Does that DriveImageXML work in that OS? Any others? What is easy for non-geeks to start with?

BootIt has worked fine for me, both for creating and formatting linux partitions before installs and for imaging and restoring linux partitions (did quite a bit of restoring images when I first installed linux). There is, of course, the feeling held by many that you should use linux tools for linux, but BootIt seems operating system independent in its own partition and has handled linux partitions without problems in my experience.

[Cluttermagnet]

I have some very bad experiences with TI 7: it can't do anything at all with SATA ... maybe it was how the clients machine was set up at which I tested it, dunno. But it left a bad taste here, so be prepared Clutter.

Thanks- striker!Understood. We're not dealing with SATA drives on the Dell machine. It's a Dimension 8250 and is about 4 years old. Drives are IDE/parallel ATA.The only reason I got TI7 was the irresistable free lifetime license offer, and the fact it will work in Win98SE. It doesn't work in XP. They hope you will like v.7 and upgrade to v.10 for XP. Fair enough. I intend to give TI7 a try on my 98 boxes at some point. BTW, it wants to always run a bunch of stuff in the background, once installed, so you might want to add some special .bat files that enable running it on demand only, by turning on its services only when needed and in the right order. If anyone is interested in how that is done, just ask, and I will supply the url to the procedure and its small downloadable file. Edited March 18, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Cluttermagnet]

Creating partition images? In Ubuntu? "Our" Frank is the man with thousand and one images... see these links (two slighly different approaches):

Thanks, Urmas!I looked at both these sites, and Partimage sounds like it might work for me in Linux- eventually. OTOH it sounds a bit geeky to me at the moment. Let's just say I will try it after I learn some of the more basic and important things in Ubuntu Linux which are done by command lines. I will definitely keep Partimage in mind as I go foreward learning Linux.

[Cluttermagnet]

BootIt has worked fine for me, both for creating and formatting linux partitions before installs and for imaging and restoring linux partitions (did quite a bit of restoring images when I first installed linux). There is, of course, the feeling held by many that you should use linux tools for linux, but BootIt seems operating system independent in its own partition and has handled linux partitions without problems in my experience.

Thanks, ebrke!I have sure liked BootitNG so far, as used mostly in 98SE and a little in XP. Until this particular problem with one particular XP machine, it had been working fine for me in XP as well. I'm thinking that it may be a simple BIOS problem that prevents Bing from seeing that second HD in that particular machine. I will go do battle with it again early next week. I'll keep Bing in mind for Linux, too, and see how that works out later down the road.

[Urmas]

... after I learn some of the more basic and important things in Ubuntu Linux which are done by command lines.

"Basic" and "important" are subjective concepts, of course, but if we're talking about the number of [basic&important] things that can be done ONLY by command line, you're in for bit of a disappointment. However, in many situations the command line is a very tempting option indeed. Here's a [basic&important] example:How to install ANYTHING in Ubuntu!

[Cluttermagnet]

"Basic" and "important" are subjective concepts, of course, but if we're talking about the number of [basic&important] things that can be done ONLY by command line, you're in for bit of a disappointment. However, in many situations the command line is a very tempting option indeed. Here's a [basic&important] example:How to install ANYTHING in Ubuntu!

Thanks, Urmas-That's a very well done page. I had seen and bookmarked it before, but it was good to revisit it just now. I will be reading and rereading it a lot as I learn how to get packages and install them. I'm going to be shy about command line methods at first, yet I am not afraid of them and I will learn them eventually. I will play safe at the beginning by letting the nice GUI tools they have written do the heavy lifting for me. Then I will grow in confidence and I will start doing more for myself. :thumbsup:Now for my next question- I've decided to let Ubuntu 6.06 be my first actual install (though certainly not my last or only Linux OS!) I'm wondering how to go about installing it over a trashed copy of 98SE I no longer wish to struggle with. The drive is formatted all FAT32. There are 3 partitions. When Ubuntu installs, I wonder where to put it? Ubuntu in live CD mode can't tell me partition sizes but I think they are all fairly large, say 20G or more. I think it is an 80G drive. If I were in Windows right now, I could know every detail. I assume Ubuntu sets up a boot loader? Maybe I'll let it install in one of the upper partitions, and not over the 98SE OS. I think I remember one generally installs Windows first, then later versions of Windows, then Linux? I don't really care. On this box, Linux can be the only OS, as far as I'm concerned. And I wish to avoid the pitfalls of multibooting anyway, if possible. I want to keep it simple for now.

[Urmas]

It's all in here: http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/installingBut... short version: the installer gives you options... since you want to plough Windoze to the kingdom come, you choose "Erase entire disk etc." That's it. KISS in action.(When I first installed Linux - Ubuntu 5.10 at that time - I couldn't believe how easy it was.) EDIT: Might be in order to mention that you can browse the net or play solitaire whilst installing... first time installers tend to get a kick out of this.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Urmas

[Cluttermagnet]

I'm now leaning towards doing the custom install #3 where you specify mount points and partitions. I'm slowly digesting the info on that install page. I played with my partition sizes on that 80G drive a couple days ago. I guess I'll take the risk of opening up in a multiboot environment, and just hope I don't regret it.What would be some good minimum size guidelines for the swap partition? How about root? How about the 3rd type, I think he called it Data or Documents or such. I remember he had something like 1G for swap, 125G for his data, and was it about 20G for root? But what would be a practical 'smaller' size?My 80G is presently partitioned 7.5G Windows and 3 more partitions all about 23G. I'd like to keep one or two free and put Linux in a third partition. Maybe I might divide one of the 23G partitions into 3 smaller ones for Linux? Or would I be running out of space too soon?7.5G Win98SE (for now) FAT3223G Ubuntu (divide into 3 partitions) ext3?23G Images, storage FAT3223G Images, storage FAT32Total becomes 6 partitions. Remember, I'm not a high power user, doing videos and lots of audio files- but I do store lots of emails, some photos and software, etc.

Edited March 20, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

I'm now leaning towards doing the custom install #3 where you specify mount points and partitions. I'm slowly digesting the info on that install page. I played with my partition sizes on that 80G drive a couple days ago. I guess I'll take the risk of opening up in a multiboot environment, and just hope I don't regret it.

Nah... just don't choose the Windoze partition to be reformatted whilst installing [gigantic temptation moment here] ... or the storage partitions you actually have stuff in either... it'll go fine... Grub will pick up the Windoze and automagically create a boot entry... c'est tout.Swap... rule of thumb is 2*RAM.Root and home... dunno... 10 Gig root, 1 Gig swap (if you have 512 Megs of RAM)... the rest of it (12 Gig) for home, maybe. See, if "I'm not a high power user, doing videos and lots of audio files- but I do store lots of emails, some photos and software, etc." is true, you will have PLENTY of leg room.(I played with a PIII with 10GB for a year, and although I installed pretty much everything that moved/wore a skirt, I had no "space problems" whatsoever.Here's my Ubuntu/PCLos/Vector/Suse/Fedora/Mandriva partition setup:10+10 for Ubuntu, 10 (root) + 5 (home) for the others... "common" swap and one "common" storage partition.READY, STEADY, GO!!! Edited March 20, 2007 by Urmas

[ross549]

My current install of Ubuntu + lots of extra software takes up about 6.8GB of space. I would say ten is save for your root. Then I would have about 2 GB for swap, and the rest for your /home, so you have plenty of space for your docs, and such.You will likely not run out of space anytime soon. ;)Adam

[Bruno]

Root and home... dunno... 10 Gig root, 1 Gig swap (if you have 512 Megs of RAM)... the rest of it (12 Gig) for home, maybe.

I would say ten is save for your root. Then I would have about 2 GB for swap, and the rest for your /home, so you have plenty of space for your docs, and such.

Yep I agree with the 2 previous suggestions . . . 10GB for root . . . . 1 or 2GB for /swap and the rest of the space for /homeBut note: you say you now have 4 partitions . . . and you want to split the 2nd partition in 3 parts . . . . potentially this could make a small mess of the partition table because the numbers will not follow logically. This is not a real show-stopper, Ubuntu will run even if you do not follow my advise, but I think a nice neat partition table makes future jobs easier. ;)So, here is my advise: in case the 2 last partitions are still empty ( I hope so ) the best you can do is delete the 3 empty 23GB partitions. Then create the partitions needed for Ubuntu, and finally re-create the last two 23GB partitions again. Bruno

[Cluttermagnet]

Thanks, guys! All the suggestions are helping. I appreciate having some concrete numbers as to what size a Linux OS in current use would have, also the suggestions about partition sizes. Well, perhaps Bruno is right to suggest not to partition partitions to avoid a messed up partition table. Perhaps instead I just dump the top two 23G partitions and leave them as free space (only during OS install). And also perhaps I take the remaining 23G partition and shrink it and then create a couple more partitions in that area of the drive.Perhaps something like this?7.5G Win98SE FAT3210G root ext3?12G home ext3?1G common swap ext3? (yes, I have 512M RAM)Future 23G Windows storage FAT32Future 23G Linux storage ext3? (or can I also format this FAT32 and store files from Linux?)Then after both OS's are booting OK, I go back in and create those two other 23G storage partitions.

[Cluttermagnet]

I think that once I have Linux on my hard drive and can start actually viewing and creating and moving files, I will more rapidly become comfortable using the new OS. Right now, the live CD sessions limit me too much (perhaps just as well!). I do find it ever so much more easy to get around using 98SE. No surprise- I have 10 years experience with Windows and just a little with Ubuntu. I think progress will come fast, once I really dig in. The concept of 'mounting' drives is a bit strange to Windows users, but I'll get used to it. A generation or two ago, they had to mount and unmount physical tape reels on transports, for gosh sakes! I never complain about shoving in a CD or floppy or whatever- ("Hey, who bent the takeup reel on this thing?!") Still, mounting and unmounting is a little strange. Heh!In Ubuntu there is no indication of dialup modem online status (or else it is built in and I haven't found it yet). In 98SE, that is a slam dunk, I have constant online status indicaton. Even if it's nothing more than a little animated icon, that is actually quite helpful. I'm sure Linux has such little pieces of helper software, I just don't know them yet. Everything I know how to do in Windows, I am now going to learn how to do all over again- working with files and folders, downloading and installing software, working with audio and graphics, networking, and others. Fortunately, my Windows experiences puts me ahead on the curve. I know what a Windows box can do, all tricked out with 3rd party software, so I expect to take less time in relearning each skill. Yes, I do know about that website that lists Linux vs. Windows equivalent software packages.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Cluttermagnet

[Urmas]

Well, perhaps Bruno is right to suggest not to partition partitions to avoid a messed up partition table. Perhaps instead I just dump the top two 23G partitions and leave them as free space (only during OS install). And also perhaps I take the remaining 23G partition and shrink it and then create a couple more partitions in that area of the drive.

Yes.

7.5G Win98SE - FAT3210G root - ext312G home ext31G swap - linux-swapFuture 23G Windows storage FAT32Future 23G Linux storage FAT32

You can create the partitions before actually going to the installer... I would do that. From within a "live session", go to "System -> Administration -> GParted" (or Gnome Partition Manager or something like that... my system speaks plain Finnish... sorry).Next, create the partitions (I guess I'd create all of them now... you can create the storage partitions later, but in order to be able to do that you'd have to boot with the live CD).Once the partitions are done, go to the installer, and tell it where to create "/" [root], "home" and "linux-swap".

or can I also format this FAT32 and store files from Linux?

Yes. And since you have Windoze in your system, that would be the thing to do.

[ross549]

Linux can easily read/write to fat32. ;)As far as the dialup modem status.... Once you get Ubuntu installed, I would recommend installing KPPP, it is a much more powerful and shows you a lot more than just "active" like the Network Manager does. One note, though- you will have to disable the ppp0 connection inside the network manager to make kppp work- it took me a couple weeks to figure that one out!Adam

[ross549]

Also......

The concept of 'mounting' drives is a bit strange to Windows users, but I'll get used to it. A generation or two ago, they had to mount and unmount physical tape reels on transports, for gosh sakes! wink.gif I never complain about shoving in a CD or floppy or whatever- ("Hey, who bent the takeup reel on this thing?!") Still, mounting and unmounting is a little strange. Heh!

Yes, Windows automatically mounts all available partitions by default. It is the Windows way, to make life more convenient for the users. However, it also makes life more convenient for virus writers and malware authors.... since everything is always available, it can be ruined easily by malicious code.Linux, on the other hand, give you fine grained control over your partitions. you can designate who can mount them (administrator or users). You can designate where they are mounted (literally anywhere in the filesystem), and other special conditions, such as read only or read/write. The price of this flexibility and security is complexity.The main file you will be concerned with in terms of your partitions is /etc/fstab. When you get Ubuntu installed, take a look there, and you will see exactly how your partitions are setup and mounted. Adam

[Urmas]

Clutter,Right-click on an "empty" part of the panel... choose "Add to panel".There is the "Network status applet" [highlighted]... it's just a traffic indicator... the "Modem status applet" [phone icon] allows you to connect/disconnect, too.Mounting... yes, it is a "learning curve issue", but Adam nailed it: "the price of this flexibility and security is complexity". By the way, this is another reason why I suggested all your "storage partitions" to be formatted - at least initially - as FAT32. If you have a "shared" ext3 storage partition and you multi-boot with several (Linux) distros - as you without doubt will be doing in the future - the setup process isn't trivial... trust me:http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.ph...7664&hl=500Then again, once "up and running", it just works... like everything in Linux.

Edited March 21, 2007 by Urmas

[ross549]

The trick to using an ext3 partition across several distros is that you have to setup each distro to have the same UID number for your username. Not really too hard, but I've done this before, and that was the key. Once you have that, the partition will mount with your permissions in each distro properly.The files are not encoded with your username, but the UID number. as long as the UID number matches, you're good to go.Adam

[Urmas]

Not really too hard, but I've done this before, and that was the key.

Eating... walking... gargling.

[ross549]

Hehehe...... yeah, sometimes........Most user control applets will let you do this, if you are careful. In the case of Ubuntu, I would setup a dummy account during the install, and once you have the system up and running, go to System -> Administration -> Users and Groups. When you add a new user, you have the option of setting a custom UID. You'd have to make sure you set your main user up to do Administrative tasks!Other than that, just setup your partition to mount somewhere in your home, such as /home/username/storage, and you'd be set.;)Adam

[Cluttermagnet]

Yes. You can create the partitions before actually going to the installer... I would do that. From within a "live session", go to "System -> Administration -> GParted" (or Gnome Partition Manager or something like that... my system speaks plain Finnish... sorry).Next, create the partitions (I guess I'd create all of them now... you can create the storage partitions later, but in order to be able to do that you'd have to boot with the live CD).Once the partitions are done, go to the installer, and tell it where to create "/" [root], "home" and "linux-swap".Yes. And since you have Windoze in your system, that would be the thing to do.

Very good-That's what I'll do, then. BTW I should have been more clear by saying "1G Linux common swap ext3". I didn't think I was going to share it with Windows.I'll go ahead and remove the top two 23G partitions from my Win utility (using PQ PM4.0 for this), and also resize and split the remaining 23G partition with it- provided it can format in ext3. If not, then I'll move to GParted and learn how to run that one to do that operation. I'll finish up by adding back the top two 23G partitions after I have Ubuntu all installed and runnning right.Let's consider that copy of 98SE as being part of my 'training wheels' as I transition to Linux. Feeling just as fast and comfortable in Linux would be my first milestone. I'll predict "in perhaps 1 year or so". Right now, things are much easier for me in Windows. The more major milestone would be dropping the 98SE partitions. That time should follow, eventually. I won't hazard a guess when, just yet.

[Cluttermagnet]

The trick to using an ext3 partition across several distros is that you have to setup each distro to have the same UID number for your username. Not really too hard, but I've done this before, and that was the key. Once you have that, the partition will mount with your permissions in each distro properly.The files are not encoded with your username, but the UID number. as long as the UID number matches, you're good to go.Adam

This sounds slightly tricky. I don't think I'm so short of hard drive space that I really need a common swap, even with an 80G drive. I'll skip this part until I'm more experienced with Linux. I do love to tinker. No doubt I'll be reinstalling Ubuntu from time to time, as well as trying all the other Linux flavors. I've certainly not been shy about reinstalling Windows to set it up better, as I have learned. But it's tedious, which is why I have come to so much love drive imaging!

[Cluttermagnet]

Clutter,Right-click on an "empty" part of the panel... choose "Add to panel".There is the "Network status applet" [highlighted]... it's just a traffic indicator... the "Modem status applet" [phone icon] allows you to connect/disconnect, too.

Once I figure out where in Ubuntu this panel appears, I'll try one or both of these. I assume this is a view in the Networking area of Ubuntu. I'll go look for it later tonight. This is what I want, a traffic indicator to show whether my dialup is 'live' or has given up on me. I do get those annoying inactivity disconnects in Windows from time to time. I try to keep some activity going repetitively and mostly avoid that, but you can't always.The ability to connect and disconnect would also be very good. Some tasks were just meant to be moused. Telling your modem to dial out has got to be one of these, IMO, and it should be doable in a single click, not two or three like I see in a live CD session (plus filling in several lines of ISP info when first opening a session).

[Urmas]

Once I figure out where in Ubuntu this panel appears, I'll try one or both of these.

Panel/s... by default you have two of them:

[ross549]

This sounds slightly tricky. I don't think I'm so short of hard drive space that I really need a common swap, even with an 80G drive. I'll skip this part until I'm more experienced with Linux. I do love to tinker. No doubt I'll be reinstalling Ubuntu from time to time, as well as trying all the other Linux flavors. I've certainly not been shy about reinstalling Windows to set it up better, as I have learned. But it's tedious, which is why I have come to so much love drive imaging!

OK, I think we might need to clear up a bit of terminology, so we are all saying the same thing. Swap- Pagefile in Windows, except it is usually in its own partition. Virtual Memory. Could be called other things. In Linux, it is swap.Common Partition- Not really a term per se, but a common concept... a partition that you access from multiple distros for the storage of documents, music, etc.I was talking about the common partition. If you are only going to have on distro installed for the foreseeable future, then I would say a FAT32 partition will be more than adequate for document storage. Since you are stil going to have Windows on this computer yet, then the common partition would need to be FAT32, since Windows does not read ext2/3 partitions without some extras installed. Not to mention FAT32 is easier to get working in Linux than ext2/3 is in Windows.I guess Microsoft never envisioned anyone ever using anything but their products. :DAdam

[Cluttermagnet]

Panel/s... by default you have two of them:

"D'oh!" (Homer Simpson slaps himself, hard, in the forehead...)OK, now I understand. What you are calling a "panel" I would call a 'toolbar'. Got it. I get the drop down menu with the top item being "Add to Panel" when I right click there. D'oh!