raymac46 Posted September 7, 2021 Author Share Posted September 7, 2021 Bookworm is getting 50-70 package upgrades per day now. It started out as a clone of Bullseye but it is now distinctively disfferent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 9 hours ago, raymac46 said: Bookworm is getting 50-70 package upgrades per day now. Yikes!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 8, 2021 Author Share Posted September 8, 2021 Only 20 or so updates yesterday. Things are calming a bit. Hopefully no icebergs ahead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 22, 2021 Author Share Posted September 22, 2021 Well I have discovered one drawback to using Bookworm. It now features GNOME 40 and that has broken all my Shell Extensions. No more GNOME customization. This will drive my wife crazy when she uses this Thinkpad as the dock with launchers is gone. I am just going to switch to LXQt as my desktop. GNOME is becoming an increasing PITA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunrat Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Gnome has 29k issues on it's Github - https://gitlab.gnome.org/groups/GNOME/-/issues Say no more. And an interesting article from Ignorant Guru blog about attitude and philosophy of Gnome developers, a few years old but not much has changed. GNOME (et al): Rotting In Threes I actually just downloaded the full DVD image of Debian to check out the current state of it. Haven't for a few years as I was extremely disappointed last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 6 hours ago, sunrat said: Gnome has 29k issues on it's Github - https://gitlab.gnome.org/groups/GNOME/-/issues Ouch!! 6 hours ago, sunrat said: And an interesting article from Ignorant Guru blog about attitude and philosophy of Gnome developers, a few years old but not much has changed. GNOME (et al): Rotting In Threes Yeah, that's nearly a decade old! Well, I have no problems to report with GNOME in Buster or Bullseye. It was kind of a hassle getting GNOME to completely stop checking for updates, but that's solved now. I don't plan on ever using GNOME in a rolling-release distro (or in Testing or Sid), though. That's just asking for problems, seems to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 Bullseye won't have any issues as it is sticking with GNOME 3.38 throughout. GNOME 40 won't be a hassle for me but my wife likes to have the icons in a dock or panel so she can launch Firefox. Now she'll need to click the Activities button or use a hot corner with the mouse. She does not like change so I'll just set up the Thinkpad with LXQt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Or she could simply tap that "Windows" button to open the "Activities" overview, if you weren't switching to LXQt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 You are right. But for some people the smallest change is unsettling. They obviously don't want to be GNOME-ies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Yeah. Too bad change never really stops happening. Especially these days! I'm a huge fan of the GNOME Shell Activities overview. My only real complaint about it has been the cut-off names of the listed applications. I'd like for that to be fixed. One huge negative with GNOME is when a new version comes out and the user's favorite extensions don't work. Not so much of a problem, though, for folks like me who mostly tend to prefer running GNOME without extensions. I think that's one of the main reasons I like GNOME more than lots of other people do, because I don't bother much with the add-ons. The basic GNOME Shell mouseclicks and keyboard shortcuts haven't changed much, if at all (something to consider for those who don't like change!). I guess because I don't use a dock in GNOME, I do end up using Alt+Tab quite often to switch between running apps. I used that keystroke in Windows, but haven't used it much in Linux, except for in GNOME. I'm a bit curious about the situation with the workspaces now; something about horizontal instead of vertical? I'm not sure how I'll feel about that change. And can the user switch back to the vertical layout? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 When you log in to GNOME 40 you initially see two workspaces side by side with your favorite icons below them. I seriously doubt that you can change this. After you launch a program and close it you are back on a blank workspace. You need to click on the Activities button or press the Windows key to get the workspaces/dock view back. I want to have some sort of permanent panel/dock with my favorite launch icons on it and that is not in the cards with GNOME 40 right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 Interesting. I think I get the picture: These are GNOME 40’s Best New Features Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 How to Restore Vertical Workspaces in Activities Overview in Ubuntu 21.10 Gnome 40 I may end up trying this extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 24, 2021 Author Share Posted September 24, 2021 The horizontal workspace setup doesn't bother me as I usually run only one workspace anyway. What I hate is no dock at the bottom except when the dash is on screen. I hope somebody will get the Dash to Dock extension going the way it used to. I normally just go with DE defaults but I don't think I can deal with GNOME that way. At least my wife won't want to as she likes a Windows7-centric approach. So it'll be LXQt for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 24, 2021 Author Share Posted September 24, 2021 Well after some playing around I got my desired GNOME configuration back (sorta.) I had to dump Wayland and go back to Xorg. Then I installed Plank and used the Dash to Plank Extension. Then I configured everything with The Extensions app instead of trying to do it with the browser. I can hide the Activities button and get back my Applications and Places Buttons too. This should be OK for my wife now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 24, 2021 Author Share Posted September 24, 2021 (edited) Here's how it looks now. Edited September 24, 2021 by raymac46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 On 9/23/2021 at 10:35 PM, saturnian said: How to Restore Vertical Workspaces in Activities Overview in Ubuntu 21.10 Gnome 40 I may end up trying this extension. When you start seeing articles titled "How to restore Feature-X", and those articles have traction, you'd think there's a message in there somewhere for the developers. Overwhelmingly, developers seem to be tone deaf... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 Well, I wanna spend some time with the horizontal workspaces, see how I like it. From what I'm reading, many users prefer the horizontal over the vertical. But I think it should be easy to switch back and forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 25, 2021 Author Share Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Hedon James said: When you start seeing articles titled "How to restore Feature-X", and those articles have traction, you'd think there's a message in there somewhere for the developers. Overwhelmingly, developers seem to be tone deaf... I guess developers have their own vision of what their DE should look and feel like. In this case I disagree with what they did. But I have only myself to blame as I could have stuck with rock stable Bullseye and had my Shell Extensions working the way I wanted for another 5 years. Thanks to saturnian's post I realized the importance of the gnome-shell-extension-prefs package for Shell Extensions with GNOME 40. Previously you could just tweak things in the browser. That plus switching to Xorg got me back on track. Another reason why I stick with stock Linux Mint Cinnamon on my most important Linux machine. Edited September 25, 2021 by raymac46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedon James Posted September 26, 2021 Share Posted September 26, 2021 13 hours ago, raymac46 said: I guess developers have their own vision of what their DE should look and feel like. In this case I disagree with what they did. But I have only myself to blame as I could have stuck with rock stable Bullseye and had my Shell Extensions working the way I wanted for another 5 years. Thanks to saturnian's post I realized the importance of the gnome-shell-extension-prefs package for Shell Extensions with GNOME 40. Previously you could just tweak things in the browser. That plus switching to Xorg got me back on track. Another reason why I stick with stock Linux Mint Cinnamon on my most important Linux machine. I've got not issues with that. In fact, I'm willing to bet that MANY problems have been solved, or better solutions found, because of developers' vision and/or personal interests. But when your personal interests SUPERCEDE such a significant portion of your userbase, it calls for the OPTION to be enabled. Not tucked away somewhere, where the average user can't access; and certainly not requiring ANOTHER developer to create another tool to restore the feature the first developer removed or "locked down". The primary ethos of Linux, IMO, is FREE as in "use". (free beer is nice, but optional, IMO) And FREEDOM of use should apply to all, not just those who created it in the first place. This is what is happening with Gnome, and it is why a die-hard Gnome fan like me left the Gnome camp. They don't miss me, but some day their going to look around the camp fire and see all their fellow developers and wonder where all the end users went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 26, 2021 Author Share Posted September 26, 2021 Maybe it's because I am also a Windows user but the freedom to configure/customize has never been a big deal for me. I use the same WIMP model of computing I used in 1996, and in fact my Windows 10 install still looks like Windows 7. There are plenty of DE's (Cinnamon, Xfce, LXQt) that deliver that out of the box. GNOME is a different beast and I use it because of long time affiliation and the fact it is the default in Debian. If my wife were not using the Thinkpad during her travels I would just go with vanilla GNOME as it's no big deal to do what I want with it. It annoyed me when all my extensions broke with GNOME 40 but I was able to get things back to normal after some research and help from posts in this forum. My principal interest in Linux is the "free as in beer" feature which not only allows me to get around licensing issues but also provides a zero cost option to keep a lot of useful old hardware in service. It was the reason I first Installed Linux back in 2006. I mean will Windows allow you to chug along on a Core 2 Duo with DDR2 RAM these days? Hardly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlim Posted September 26, 2021 Share Posted September 26, 2021 A bit OT. I had to smile Ray, when I saw your re-configured gnome desktop. That looks very similar to my chromebook with a "shelf" though the time, date, and network are at the bottom right aside of the shelf. When I got a chromebook, I couldn't figure out why I was unable to put programs I wanted on the desktop, like I do on all my android devices. Seems like google wants all the space empty. Now the gnome developers more more empty space. Why??? Let the users decide if they want cluttered or uncluttered desktops. Yes, it seems fewer and fewer developers are paying any attention to what users want across all operating systems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 26, 2021 Author Share Posted September 26, 2021 The thing is...I don't want a bunch of icons cluttering up my desktop either. In Windows I make an icons folder on the desktop and banish any icon that turns up to that folder. Some programs insist on a desktop icon (looking at you, Malware Bytes.) All I want is some sort of panel or dock for my most used programs, and I don't think that is too much to ask - even for a GNOME-ie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunrat Posted September 26, 2021 Share Posted September 26, 2021 You guys might be interested in this current hot topic at Debian Forums:- Bonkers Gnome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted September 27, 2021 Author Share Posted September 27, 2021 (edited) Read through the thread. Comments: I don't have a 32 bit machine any longer, but I would never install a heavyweight DE on it if I did. I use LXQt on a 64 bit netbook with an Atom CPU and 2 GB of RAM and even that is slow going with a browser like Firefox. I don't pay much attention to comments about bloat. Aside from the netbook, everything I have has at least 8 GB of RAM and a quad core CPU. That is plenty of horsepower for GNOME, KDE, Cinnamon. I could use any DE and get used to it quickly enough. It ain't rocket science. I did not install GNOME with Debian for my wife to use initially. She used to take the netbook when she visited her mother but she hated the performance. So rather than install Cinnamon on the Thinkpad, I configured it to make it easy for her to use. She freaks out if there is any change from the norm. She just wants to click on a Firefox or Thunderbird icon. On any distro but Arch I just go with the defaults. I figure the distro packager will support the default DE best. If you want the ultimate in efficiency one of the tiling WMs is probably your best bet. Not my cup of tea, but for a power user I can see the merits. Probably I would never use GNOME if I didn't have a 14 year history with it. If my first foray into Linux had been with Mandriva or SUSE I'd probably still be rocking Plasma. I don't believe that the goal of Linux should be to rescue hardware from the turn of the century. That said, I expect to find a distro or two that'll re-energize something too old for Windows 10. I stick to the ten year rule generally when it comes to recycling old PCs but I might be able to extend that a bit. If you want to be old school just install Xfce or MATE and you are good to go. Edited September 27, 2021 by raymac46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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