Unknown Crashes

[DarkSerge]

I do plan to put in another PSU. I have a friend with spares he can give me and I ordered an adapter from Newegg (Lenovo uses a 14-pin proprietary connector but an adapter wasn't hard to find.) For now I can only wait and observe until I have the parts to swap. So far I haven't had any issues since Monday afternoon. As a little side observation, on my nights off when the system will be running much longer, I'll throw in a Live CD to see if it has any restarts (which might single out the PSU since a live CD won't use the hard drive or Windows)

 

This is what tests the hard drive is failing and what software I used:

 

Lenovo Service Center hardware scan - Targeted Read Test, SMART Short Self Test, SMART Drive Self Test

 

Seagate SeaTools - Short Drive Self Test, Long Generic, and any attempt to fix fails (two options: Fix All - "Fast" and "Long" both fail)

 

Whether it's the true issue or not, I'm still going to put in a standard PSU (better than 180W) so it'll be easier in the future to expand if I want to add a drive or a video card.

 

Also, I have my OS installed on a different drive than where I keep my things (Music, documents, photos, etc.) so if an OS drive fails, I don't lose everything. That drive is backed up to a 2 TB network drive: which also syncs with Windows on my laptop. So I have double backups of all my important things

Edited November 30, 2017 by DarkSerge

[Digerati]

(which might single out the PSU since a live CD won't use the hard drive or Windows).

That will not single out the PSU. The power consumption of a hard drive and a optical drive is essentially the same - around 3W. And it does not matter which operating system is running. The big power consumers are the graphics solution, CPU, RAM, and motherboard - all of which will be consuming power regardless if you boot from HD or CD/DVD.

 

And for that matter, when you apply power to the computer, the HD will spin anyway even if you boot to the CD/DVD.

[DarkSerge]

My thinking is, if the restarts are being caused by Windows (say bad driver or something) or running from a bad hard drive (diagnostic tests are failing) then those factors won't cause restart when in a Live CD. If I'm in a Live CD and the system still restarts, then I'd think it more likely be the PSU since I'm not using Windows or the hard drive.

 

I'm going to replace the PSU, but I can't until I get the parts, so I'm at a pause with that right now and there's nothing I can do about it for the time being. Until then, I have this hard drive that might be bad. I just downloaded SeaTools for DOS so I'm going to see if that is any help.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

If you really want to test your "live CD" theory, reach into your case and disconnect the power connector going to the hdd, then start your system with the live CD. Let it run for days that way and see if it reboots. If it does not reboot, you have narrowed your choices of causes to the OS or the hdd.

 

You cannot truly test your live CD theory without isolating that hdd. If there is a hardware issue with the hdd that loads the PSU, then it would still do that using a live CD if it's still connected to power. Isolate it and then test. That's a better way.

 

Luck!

[V.T. Eric Layton]

P.S. A Seagate drive that I bought brand-spanking new (my one and only Seagate) was for a long, long time the ONLY hdd that I ever had fail on me. It had an intermittent issue that even Seagate's tech department could not understand. They refunded me my $$$ and paid for shipping so I could return the drive to them. They were very interested in testing it to find out what was causing the issue. I've never used another Seagate since that time.

[Digerati]

I've never used another Seagate since that time.

Why? Because you had "one" fail or just because other circumstances led you to buy other brands? I hope the latter.

 

No person or company can create perfection 100% of the time. So even the best designed, best made products from the best companies will have units that fail. From that point on, it is how the company handles that failed product and treats the customer that makes a difference. And it sounds like Seagate bent over backwards to satisfy you.

 

Based on your story, if looking for a new HD, I would be inclined to buy a Seagate next time.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Nah... it's like the time that I got ptomaine poisoning from a ham/cheese sandwich at Subway. I didn't eat anything there again for nearly 30 years. When I did eat there again, I had a meatball sub because it was cooked.

 

I've never been a Seagate fan. I've always used WD or Maxtors. Unfortunately, Maxtor got absorbed by Seagate a few years ago. I've had a couple of other Seagates that worked fine, but I didn't buy them. I salvaged them from the computer graveyard in my shop. When I buy a drive, it's always a WD.

 

The only WD I ever had fail on me was a (very) used 150Gig 10,000rpm Velociraptor that I inherited (two of them) from a friend. Even that one still lasted me quite a few years before it gave up the ghost. Its twin sister is still functioning, though.

[Digerati]

Well, FTR, I've had several WD drives fail over the years. So they are not perfect either.

 

I don't think getting food poisoning is a fair comparison. I can tell you 40+ years ago, I was commode-sitting/trash-can-hugging for 2 days after eating Cup Noodles. Just looking at the picture again causes my stomach to churn. I have not touched the stuff since, and see no reason to from now on.

 

But I am a big fan of Gigabyte motherboards because years ago, during the big electrolytic capacitor plague, I had a mid-grade 4 year old motherboard fail due to leaky caps. I contacted Gigabyte and they immediately authorized a RMA. Now understand there was only a 3 year warranty on that board but they replaced it for free. Whenever I have had to deal with ASUS or MSI tech support, it seems I always have to prove it not something I did wrong before they admit their product failed.

 

Gigabyte has been my preferred brand ever since. So again, it is how a company handles after-sell issues that makes a big difference in my book.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Yes, I'm a GigaByte fan, too. The only problem I ever had with one was when a PCIe socket went bad. I still used that mobo in my shop system with onboard graphics, so I don't need the PCIe slot.

[raymac46]

I have Toshiba drives in my main Linux desktop - which I believe in the case of the mechanical HDD is former Hitachi/IBM owned storage technology. Toshiba drives were on sale when I was getting the parts to build the machine. They have been fine.

My Acer Windows desktop has Seagate and it's been a decent drive. All things being equal I'd likely go with WD.

I also like Gigabyte a lot when it comes to mobos.

[DarkSerge]

For now there isn't much I can do so I'll try to Live CD test just to see what happens. I've run a Live CD twice so far for about 12 or more hours without any issues. I'll try disconnecting the HDD next time since I don't do much on here when I run a Live CD anyway. Anything I should try from a Live CD like file system checks before I do runs without the HDD connected?

 

In a previous reply, I listed the tests the HDD was failing. Are these things repairable and workable, or should I be looking into a new drive?

[zlim]

You can't repair a failing hard drive. Plus, as the price of hard drives drops, it isn't worth the headache worrying about a drive that may not spin up at all the next time you turn on the computer.

If you have data you aren't too worried about losing, you can use the drive as secondary storage. But to me, it just isn't worth it. I'd get rid of it.

[DarkSerge]

For now, other than the restart problem, things are working normal. I'm bothered that this hard drive would be showing signs of failure when I've had it less than 2 years. After I get a new PSU installed, I'll look into replacing the hard drive. I'm likely going to replace it with an SSD.

[zlim]

I'm not sure what brand hard drive but it failed 2 different short and long tests.

 

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-failure-rates-q1-2017/

check the failure rate on the Seagate (10th entry down). Some models have high failure rates even in 2017 when hard drives are more reliable.

[DarkSerge]

It's a 1 TB drive, not listed in that article. ST1000DM0032-1ER162 according to my Device Manager.

 

I swapped cables to see if it made a difference. Took out the factory cable and put my own in. So far nothing's changed, still failed the tests. It's also been just over a week since the last unwanted restart. Otherwise, nothing interesting to report on the subject. The PSU adapter cable I ordered will be a while. Normally when I order from Newegg, I get things pretty quick, but this time it's shipping from China and I haven't had an update on the tracking # since last Wednesday.

[DarkSerge]

It's been over a week and a half since the last event and it happened again while I was sitting here. Same symptoms, but this time it didn't restart. No errors, nothing in the system log. Just blink and the screen goes black and it's like the system just isn't there. This time, it didn't restart, it was like it went to sleep and didn't wake up. The system was still on, fans running like normal, but no video and no response. I watched it happen.

 

Sadly, I haven't had an update on the tracking number for the adapter cable I ordered to use a standard PSU. Ordered from Newegg, but it's shipping from China. Hard drive still failing same tests as before. After I get the PSU replaced, I will likely just get an SSD and start from a fresh Windows install. Hopefully there will be no issues after that.

 

Update: The tracking number was updated. I should have my adapter by Thursday. So by the end of the week I will hopefully have another PSU installed.

Edited December 10, 2017 by DarkSerge

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Good luck! Keep us posted on the progress.

[DarkSerge]

Looks like my parts came sooner than planned. I got an extra PSU from a friend so now I'm running with a proper power supply, 300W. Even if the issues persists, I prefer to have a proper PSU installed.

 

The next task in the future is to replace the HDD that's been failing the diagnostics. Not sure how soon I'll get that done, but I plan to install an SSD in its place eventually.

[DarkSerge]

At the risk of jinxing good news:

 

It's been 2 weeks since my last system crash/restart, the longest amount of time since the problem started. It's been 11 days since I put in a new PSU. I will likely start looking into an SSD in the new year.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

YAY!

 

[Pete!]

Just a thought...

Don't overlook the possibility of a loose connection.

Often when you "mess with it", you seem to get a temporary respite (until it loosens again?).

Edited December 24, 2017 by Pete!

[DarkSerge]

Just a thought...

Don't overlook the possibility of a loose connection.

Often when you "mess with it", you seem to get a temporary respite (until it loosens again?).

 

I've checked connections a few times. It was one of the first things I did when the problem first started. Re-checked everything when I put in the power supply. I always check connections when I have issues, I've even fixed a problem on old systems before because it was just a loose wire.

[DarkSerge]

It's been almost 2 months since the last issue, and almost as long since I put in a better power supply.

 

For 2 months all has been quiet. It's doing it again. The other night it locked up completely and just now it restarted all by itself in the same manner as before.

 

This time, I can't view the system logs. When I try to open the Event Viewer, I just get a message after a few moments saying "Microsoft Management Console has stopped working..." and it closes. I'll try a proper restart to see if that gets working.

 

Maybe it's time I look into replacing that hard drive with an SSD.

 

Edit: A full shutdown and proper restart didn't get the Event Viewer to work. Still crashed. I looked at my notes, today's exactly 2 months since the last crash/random restart.

Edited February 9, 2018 by DarkSerge

[Guest LilBambi]

Regardless, I do believe this is some sort of hardware issue. Any failure (vid card, RAM, mobo, CMOS, CPU, etc.) can cause reboots. However, PSUs are the likeliest culprits.

 

Agree with Eric and others. Sounds more like a hardware issue than software, however nothing can be ruled out at this stage.

 

However, I would definitely see if you can use a Linux disk booted and left for hours or a couple days, to rule out Windows 10/Windows Updates as the culprit first since that would be the least expensive route.

 

Especially since the problem came back.

 

Let us know how that goes.

 

 

And for that matter, when you apply power to the computer, the HD will spin anyway even if you boot to the CD/DVD.

 

Very true. You could disconnect power to the suspected hard drive when you boot to a Linux cd/dvd and test it twice; once with hard drive connected and once with it disconnected.

 

Phantom issues sure are a pain LOL