Nitrogen in tires!

[Guest Paracelsus]

Oh nn.. I have become a museum)

Move Over!!, Dude!!I'm right nextaya :thumbsup:Looking forward to reminiscence and intelligent conversation (sans attitude)

[trigggl]

i am neither a scientist nor a truckdriver but i think we are all missing a point here and that is air and/or nitrogen like water will take the path of least resistance .

We have indeed missed the point! The original point was the following question:

Is it worth $20-$30?

It depends on your situation and pocketbook.In the aviation industry where safety is everything, you want your tires as strong as possible. If the place where your plane is surviced puts regular compressed air in you tires, run (or fly) to a different company. You absolutely do not want regular air weakening your aircrafts tires.If you're racing cars, it's also worth it. You're paying a driver millions of dollars to win races and you want to give him/her the best opportunity possible.If you're driving a Yugo/Geo/Kia/low-cost-low-speed-car, no it isn't worth it.

[longgone]

We have indeed missed the point! The original point was the following question:QUOTEIs it worth $20-$30?

NO !!!!! Edited October 31, 2004 by teacher

[Guest Paracelsus]

Utt-Ohh!Did we scare everybody away? :'(Personally...I'm opting for Argon.A Noble gas should have marketing appeal to the Luxury SUV & Hummer crowd.

[longgone]

..... Thank you,,,, Julia.......

[longgone]

Peresonally ... I would like a good combination for my truck tires .. same something around 750,00-1,000,000 would be nice

I'm opting for Argon.A Noble gas should have marketing appeal to the Luxury SUV & Hummer crowd.

[georgeg4]

Posted by triggl

(georgeg4 @ Oct 29 2004, 06:38 PM)i am neither a scientist nor a truckdriver but i think we are all missing a point here and that is air and/or nitrogen like water will take the path of least resistance .

We have indeed missed the point! The original point was the following question:

Is it worth $20-$30?

It depends on your situation and pocketbook.In the aviation industry where safety is everything, you want your tires as strong as possible. If the place where your plane is surviced puts regular compressed air in you tires, run (or fly) to a different company. You absolutely do not want regular air weakening your aircrafts tires.If you're racing cars, it's also worth it. You're paying a driver millions of dollars to win races and you want to give him/her the best opportunity possible.If you're driving a Yugo/Geo/Kia/low-cost-low-speed-car, no it isn't worth it.

actually the original post as i read/remember/understood it Was for all vehicles not just airlines/race cars/trucks/or any other specialized vehicles so the answer is definately an unequivical and resounding NO

[NRD]

actually the original post as i read/remember/understood it Was for all vehicles not just airlines/race cars/trucks/or any other specialized vehicles so the answer is definately an unequivical and resounding  NO

I'm in agreement. For consumers in general this is a waste of money. I've been driving and buying tires for a bit, (just bought a set on wednesday) and I have never had to replace a tire because of rot. It was simple tread wear. I keep my tires properly inflated and rotated and regular intervals. Is nitrogen going to help? NOPE.

[ibe98765]

I think the major problem is that the majority of people DO NOT keep their tires inflated to proper pressure and do not regularly check them (at least monthly). In fact, the majority of people do not even know WHAT their tire pressures are supposed to be. Also, people who do check, generally do so with inaccurate pencil gauges or depend on the readout at the gas station. Additionally, when you check your pressures at at the gas station, you have generally been driving for some time and the pressures are higher than when cold. Over the years, I have discovered that a pressure difference of as little as 2 lbs can make a big difference in how a car handles or feels. I have a portable air compressor that plugs into the cig lighter (you can find these for $10-30) and I check pressures using a digital gauge accurate to +- .5 lb. I check and fill my tires when cold, before the car is moved out of my garage.Now, if N leaks less than regular air, then the average consumer will have less of a problem maintaining correct air pressures. This is good and IMO, would justify an extra $20. It is a small cost to pay on a $400-800 set of tires.

[Peachy]

Keeping tires inflated to the recommended pressure helps on gas mileage. As to prolonging tire life, I'm not certain if that contributes or not. But definitely gas mileage is affected by under-pressured tires. And yes, the correct tire pressure for your vehichle is listed on the inside of the door jamb, not the tire. The value on the tire is the maximum pressure.

[NRD]

Severely over or under inflating a tire will shorten a tires life due to uneven tread wear, but not nearly on the level of an improperly aligned vehicle.I still think this is hype. Consumers would do better to check alignment when buying a new set of tires and rotating every 3500-6000 miles at which time proper pressure & fitness is checked. I think choosing to do or not do this type of maintenance is what primarily determines how long a tire will last, not what you fill it with.

[ibe98765]

I know from experience that many mechanics do not properly inflate tires. Most use the old standard of 32 lbs all around. Some go as high as 36 lbs! And they use those inaccurate pencil gauges which are as much as 10 lbs off! I have argued this point with many but they don't care. Most shrug and say that it is good for them if tires wear out faster since a lot of people come back to the dealership to buy new ones.An example: Virtually every front-wheel drive car has a lot more weight in the front than in the rear and the front is the driven wheels. If you check the manufacturers specs, you'll find that most font-wheel drive cars have 2-4 lbs higher tire pressures in the front than in the back.The wrong tire pressures not only affect the wear of the tires, they affect handling (think understeer/oversteer) characteristics, ride and customer perception of the quality of the car.

[trigggl]

I've been driving and buying tires for a bit, (just bought a set on wednesday) and I have never had to replace a tire because of rot. It was simple tread wear.

I'm thinking tires could possibly wear faster if they were weakend. Not only that, they won't have as much traction and may be dangerous on wet roads. I've seen a large difference between old and new tires on wet roads. I once had a car I bought that had old tires on the front and new tires on the back. There was one curve that I knew the car would push on when wet. When I rotated the tires, I knew I would fishtail on that corner when wet. There could be a long term safety issue here.I'm not saying it's worth it, but I'm starting to consider it. It sounded strange to me when my instructer in college harped on it, but I'm being won over. If more consumers are won over, it may be easier to get done and therefore cheaper.

[longgone]

Me again.... 1). NRD .. I thoroughly agree about alignment... improper alignment can/does lead to uneven tire wear (i.e. outside edge wears out faster than the rest of the tire, camber/caster), can also, if severe enough cause extreme front end shimmey that if not taken care of quickly can result in maybe a 911 call as you sit in a ditch...... 2). Tire pressures are on todays modern tires are molded into the sidewall and are directly related to the load range of the tire which is stated in letters .. i.e load range b, c, d etc., in the case of my semi all the way to h, which is a 16 ply tire. Tire pressures are also dictated by whether or not the tire is used in a dual mounting situation or single mounting (dualies p/u, big trucks)3). For info only (Do not do this at home): Serious over inflation can increase gas mileage since there is less tire contact with the road (tire wear in center is greater), under inflation (severe)(laziness), causes tire edges to wear first (cupping) and puts a serious bite in the wallet due to some really bad fuel mileage....That is todays/this weeks informational foray into Tires 101 .... thank you

[NRD]

I know from experience that many mechanics do not properly inflate tires.  Most use the old standard of 32 lbs all around.  Some go as high as 36 lbs!  And they use those inaccurate pencil gauges which are as much as 10 lbs off! I have argued this point with many but they don't care.  Most shrug and say that it is good for them if tires wear out faster since a lot of people come back to the dealership to buy new ones.

I know I'm getting off topic here...but buying tires at a dealership <shudder> Since were all talking about safety, I'll add this bit. Whenever my tires are taken off the vehicle for brakes, rotation etc, I insist the lugnuts are hand torqued with a torque wrench when they are put back on. Some places don't like it because it takes more time, but I make a fuss until its done and watch to make sure.

[ibe98765]

2). Tire pressures are on today's modern tires are molded into the sidewall and are directly related to the load range of the tire which is stated in letters .. i.e load range b, c, d etc., in the case of my semi all the way to h, which is a 16 ply tire.

For cars this is absolutely incorrect! The correct tire pressures for cars are on the inside of the door jam, inside the console box or in the owner's manual. The number on the tire is the MAXIMUM that the tire is rated for for.If you decide to experiment with tire pressures, unless you are racing on a track or understand oversteer/understeer, it is best to vary all tire pressures by the same amount. If you want a little firmer ride, then maybe try adding 1-2 lbs. all around. For a little softer ride, subtract 1-2 lbs. Keeping the recommended ratio's front to rear maintains vehicle handling characteristics as the manufacturer designed.

[longgone]

..... ibe98765I might could believe that if I had not spent the better part of a year studying tires before I made my decisions on what brand and load rating to purchase. As you stated the vehicle mfgr says to use this pressure for the best ride in said vehicle, whereas the tire mfgr says use this pressure for the best tire life. Ergo the massive lawsuits/court time in the Firestone tires on the Ford Explorers and some of them are still unsettled.I stand by what I say/said 100%

[ibe98765]

I stand by what I say/said 100%

OK. Then you won't mind providing some corroborating support for this position (other than your own statment of your expertise in "studying tires", that is)? I don't believe you will be able to find anything to back up your position...

[longgone]

Ford Motor Company, General Motors Corporation, Daimler-Benz/Chrysler, Bridgestone/Firestone tires, Sumitomo tires, Toyo tires, BF Goodrich, Goodyear tires, etc .,etc., etc. There are numerous tire studies available, just point and click.

[ibe98765]

Ford Motor Company, General Motors Corporation, Daimler-Benz/Chrysler, Bridgestone/Firestone tires, Sumitomo tires, Toyo tires, BF Goodrich, Goodyear tires, etc .,etc., etc. There are numerous tire studies available, just point and click.

Sigh, I'm very sorry to hear that you WASTED a whole year of time researching tires and yet wound up with the wrong information. It only took me about 30 minutes, including cutting/pasting and formatting the quotes below. Next time you have a question, let me know. ===============================TIRE MANUFACTURERS do not set tire pressures for individual cars. Should you get motivated enough to TRY to back up your contention (and that is all it is, a contention, not a fact), you will not be able to produce one link where a tire manufacturer specifies tire pressures for a particular car. The only pressure tire manufacturers recommend is the MAXIMUM pressure rating for the tire (the number on the sidewall).

The Benefits of Proper InflationWith the right amount of air pressure, you will achieve optimum tire performance. This means your tires wear longer, save fuel and help prevent accidents. The "right amount" of air is the pressure specified by the vehicle manufacturer, which may be different on the front than the rear tires on your particular model car or light truck. The correct air pressure is shown on the tire placard (or sticker) attached to the vehicle door edge, door post, glove box door or fuel door. If your vehicle doesn't have a placard, check the owner's manual or consult with the vehicle manufacturer, tire manufacturer or your local tire dealer for the proper inflation.The tire placard tells you the maximum vehicle load, the cold tire air pressures and the tire size recommended by the vehicle manufacturer. http://www.rma.org/tire_safety/tire_mainte...y.cfm#inflation

Passenger TiresShown on page 13 is the sidewall of a popular "P-metric," speed-rated auto tire. The maximum load is shown in kg (kilograms) and in lbs (pounds), and maximum pressure in kPa (kilopascals) and in psi (pounds per square inch).

Bridgestone/Firestone defers to the vehicle manufacturer for correct tire pressures:http://www.tiresafety.com/safety/safety3.htmGo here to see that the pressure printed on the sidewall is the MAX LOAD PRESSURE, not the normal recommended pressurehttp://www.tiresafety.com/size_class/size_nav.htm#loadlim

Michelin says:Recommended PressureAlways inflate your tires to the recommended pressure listed by your vehicle's manufacturer. This information can be found in the owner's manual and often on a placard located in the vehicle's door jamb, inside the fuel hatch, or on the glove compartment door.http://www.michelinman.com/care/tip1.html

Manufacturers of passenger vehicles and light trucks determine this number based on the vehicle's design load limit, that is, the greatest amount of weight a vehicle can safely carry and the vehicle's tire size.The proper tire pressure for your vehicle is referred to as the "recommended cold inflation pressure." (As you will read below, it is difficult to obtain the recommended tire pressure if your tires are not cold.)Because tires are designed to be used on more than one type of vehicle, tire manufacturers list the "maximum permissible inflation pressure" on the tire sidewall. This number is the greatest amount of air pressure that should ever be put in the tire under normal driving conditions. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/TireSa...re.html#dotcode

[NRD]

Whoops, I just posted a rebuttal to IBE's rebuttal of longgone's post. I deleted it after re-reading that Ibe qualified his statement to cars only. Looks like concerning cars, Ibe is right, concerning heavy trucks longgone is.And to think I was about to accuse IBE of a little foot in mouth disease. Seems like the one tasting leather is me.

[Guest Paracelsus]

Considering that Tire Manufacturers have $ome motivations$ to buy into what the car makers dictate (who has the better engineers?? I don't know) in order to establish & retain the rights to have their product installed on all new vehicles :hmm:Could leave one to wonder... N'est Pas?? :hmm:But we all know the purveyors of products have no incentive to get Consumers to believe what they are told. Not even Purveyors of Nitrogen Generators.(So Says the Devil's Advocate... Links at 11)

[longgone]

ibe98765 ..... you need to go back and read carefully exactly what I posted before you start insulting a person with statements that I wasted my time. The majority of my research was for my semi, which is my money maker, my personal vehicle is a 1 ton chevy van which BTW was built prior to the tire information you refer to on the door jamb of the newer vehicles. Since you are so good at researching, look up the recommended tire pressures for a semi truck/tractor with a 45' trailer carrying 80,000 lbs, 2 tires on the steer axle (one on each side), all the rest are mounted up as duals,2 per axle end, and remember, inflation pressures are different for duals.

[Guest Paracelsus]

Seems like the one tasting leather is me.

Tasty!!Just add it to the Stew Pot.

[ibe98765]

ibe98765 ..... you need to go back and read carefully exactly what I posted before you start insulting a person with statements that I wasted my time. The majority of my research was for my semi, which is my money maker, my personal vehicle is a 1 ton chevy van which BTW was built prior to the tire information you refer to on the door jamb of the newer vehicles.  Since you are so good at researching, look up the recommended tire pressures for a semi truck/tractor with a 45' trailer carrying 80,000 lbs, 2 tires on the steer axle (one on each side), all the rest are mounted up as duals,2 per axle end, and remember, inflation pressures are different for duals.

Sorry, but the discussion was about cars. You didn't in any way qualify that you might have been referring to trucks ONLY. That would have helped...

[longgone]

... sigh .. a miscommunication , I fear which I shall clear up right now ......

(longgone @ Nov 1 2004, 07:21 AM)2). Tire pressures are on today's modern tires are molded into the sidewall and are directly related to the load range of the tire which is stated in letters .. i.e load range b, c, d etc., in the case of my semi all the way to h, which is a 16 ply tire.

the above is a statement of fact... tire pressures are molded into the sidewalls...does that statement state that you should use those numbers as your own ... NO it does not.. if you assumed or misconstrued that was what I was saying then you are incorrect and I apoilogize for not being more clear than I thought I was. It also does not discern if it is a passenger vehicle or a semi since that statement says "today's modern tires"To clarify even more the research I did (wasted time ????) was not about tire pressures at all. It had to do completely and totally with tread design/patterns. tread depth, and tire diameter (not wheel,, tire). This should clear all of this up.Although I still would like an answer I asked much earlier in this thread if there is one available.

[ibe98765]

Right. As far as I could garner from what you were posting, you were saying/implying that the pressure marked on the sidewall was the TIRE manufacturers "recommended" pressure. Given that interpretation, I provided links showing this to be incorrect. Really, few people understand what "load ranges" are or mean. In this sequential text format, it is important to be very specific so that what you are trying to say is clear to everyone.As to the question you posted earlier, please repost it. I thought I addressed all open questions...

[Guest Paracelsus]

Actually,None of the links provided so far in this thread have answered any of the claims of in original post.

Chemical engineeringUsing nitrogen instead of compressed air has distinct advantages, which lead to immediate benefits for the vehicle owner.1. It has more mass, so it migrates through the tire three to four times slower. The result: Tires hold their psi longer.2. It runs about 20% cooler. Less heat results in less tire degradation.3. It drastically reduces oxidation on the rim and inner-liner (nitrogen systems almost totally eliminate oxygen -- the cause of oxidation -- from the mix).4. It is environmentally safe.

Most especially...#1 above has not been proved. How does pure Nitrogen have more mass than clean, dry, air. It may be Denser per unit volume... But Density is not equivalent to Mass (D=M/V). Mass is an inherent property of matter. Density is a ration of Mass to Volume. So...Where is the factual, physical evidence and proof that Nitrogen has more mass than air??In that same premise... The was no objective, factual evidence on the "Migration Theory". How was this tested?? What criteria was used?? All I saw sere statements about... "The tires maintained proper pressure longer". Who collected the data?? How was the data collected??Unless I missed some ancillary links with charts and tables... The proof has not been presented. Only statements. I was chastised most severely for not presenting facts. We are entitled to facts in return. And none of the links provided to date have done so.#3 above makes wild claims that again were not substantiated in any of the links to date.What was the criteria used to determine the degree and rate of Oxidation?? What methodologies...Mass Spectrometry??HPLC??GC-MS ??NMR??What?? There were lots of "Statements" without substantiation.#2 above. I might grant that. Even though there were no facts presented. How was the internal tire temperature measured?? If measurements were made...Were they made on a tire spinning on a dynamometer?? Or on a vehicle experiencing real world driving regimes??#4 above. I might grant that as well. But compared to what?? Air??

But this is EXACTLY what is being done! A machine is used to separate the N from regular air! Where did you think the N was coming from?????See:http://www.parker.com/ead/cm2.asp?cmid=3003http://www.dwt-gmbh.de/english/nitrogen-generators.htmhttp://www.dwt-gmbh.de/english/reifengas_whyn2_e.htm

I hardly need a primer on the dynamics of N2 generators. As I said in my second post:

Evidently...One of the devices being marketed (mainly to auto shops and service stations) is a Nitrogen Generator. These are fairly common in Analytical Laboratories (I have one here). Basically, they remove the Oxygen (and trace gases); water vapor; etc., from air and leave relatively pure dry Nitrogen

And have been using them for over 25 years... along with many other gas generators.Personally.... I'm still keen on Argon, which does have greater mass.(Hey!... Look!... No Smilies. But... "Lord have Mercy"!)

[ibe98765]

Huh? Are you getting senile in your old age? This was all addressed in Link. See the link for the engineeringtoolbox. If you don't like their methodology, then you should go take it up with them. I'm not keep going over the same thing again and again while you nitpick down to the level of "what is the meaning of 'is'", to paraphase Bill Clinton.And what's with all the blank lines/empty space you are using in your posts lately? It's not cute and just wastes useful forum space, helping to push posts onto another page.

[longgone]

Darn I got lost in the shuffle .... okay here it is again ... using your number of 32psi as an arbitrary base line (follow recommended inflation pressures PLUUUZZZEEEE) ... inflate two tires to said pressure one using air one using nitrogen...... since both will expand going down the road due to heat build up, and since it has already been determined that nitrogen is more dense than compressed air .... will the heat build up in the nitrogen filled tire create enough pressure to blow the tire off the wheel ??????????????????????