Eric Legge Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Greetings all,I came across this post that I don't know the answer to. Can anyone shed any light on the matter?Hi,I'm trying to untangle a mystery concerning my girlfriend's parents' computer.It is an IBM machine purchased new, back in 1999. It came with Windows 98 installed but I'm told came with no Windows CD, no License, and no restore disk. When asked, IBM told them (apparently) that because they hadn't paid for Windows 98, they don't get the disks. When questioned if this was legal, IBM replied "We hold the license, if you need it reinstalled, it has to be sent back to the shop"This doesn't make a lot of sense to me - If the shop owned the license, they would not be allowed under license law to sell usage of it to the public?I only know from my own work at a computer shop in ENGLAND that if WE sell a PC, it MUST be shipped with the original CD and license for the OS that it's being supplied with. My girlfriend's parents live in the USA - is there any different rules or regulations concerning licensing there? It seems to be a common problem also - a friend of hers bought a laptop second hand from a computer shop and it had Windows ME installed on it. Again, no license or CD were provided, and now that it is experiencing problems (Which windows ME systems are prone to, as I understand) there is nothing she can do.Would someone like to comment specifically on the cases shown here, and tell me once and for all what the law IS?Erichttp://www.legge40.freeserve.co.uk/BuyerBeware.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rons Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Hi Eric,What some manufactures did was to partition the hard disk with a hidden partition. The hidden partition contained a image of all setup files, including Windows, necessary drivers, manufacture software and program software.In case the system needed to be restored to factory spec's, the user used the built in restore feature to repartition the primary hard disk partition and restore the original files. This works OK, unless the entire hard disk fails.I have seen systems where the hidden partition in which the image was stored would become corrupted or unreadable by the restore software. I have succesfully deleted the hidden partition, repartition the entire disk to capacity, then installed a clean copy of Windows. Most manufactures still provide the hardware drivers on their sites. Legal? Unfortunately yes. It is rare that you see this type of system being used any longer on the newer systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peachy Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 Typically yes. Our college has an exclusive contract with a middle-tier computer vendor. We have a Pentium 4 spec that they ship to us whenever we need more PCs. For example, this winter we ordered 15 machines for a lab that they shipped to us all formatted with DOS 7.1 and a little Micro$oft COA sticker with a Windows 98 licence number but no CD. Mind you, we don't need Windows 98 since we have site licence for Windows XP and we are putting Linux on them. But, still, they have the right to charge us $150 for a licence we will never use, for a CD we will never handle!!!! They won't let us buy a PC from them without an OS!!! Is this legal? I don't know, but we have 800 Windows 98 Second Edition CDs sitting in a room that we aren't legally allowed to install on a PC other than the one they came with!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 7, 2003 Share Posted May 7, 2003 I suspect that your gf's parents misunderstood. IBM and most other manufactures ship with either a restore disk or a hidden image of your drive on the hard drive. They should have got a restore disk that has a special copy of Drive Image SE that will restore the image should they corrupt it. Only problem of course is that should you loose your hard drive or manage to furbar the hidden partition then you have to ship the system back to IBM. You should have a Certificate of Authenticity hologram sticker on the bottom, side, or rear of the unit.It should look like that.More info at Microsoft's Piracy Website.And its totally legal and it total crap. Resistance is futile! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbredmound Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 We have been assimilated (and more). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Legge Posted May 8, 2003 Author Share Posted May 8, 2003 Thanks for the helpful replies.It looks as if IBM was acting legally. Windows was pre-loaded using the license number, and a sticker was probably supplied with the user manual.The user should have made a backup of the system.Here is a site selling 98 as "Windows 98se oem license front cover of manual and coa, no CD " -http://www.saveateagle.com/win98seoemli.htmlEric,http://www.legge40.freeserve.co.uk/BuyerBeware.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Beware of that eagle site. I know of no legal means to sell windows to whitebox builders without a CD. The big boys negotiate special deals and have Microsoft reps work with them hand to hand to design install images. OEM whitebox builders are too small and thus they get CDs. This eagle system place looks like counterfeit to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Beware of that eagle site. I know of no legal means to sell windows to whitebox builders without a CD. The big boys negotiate special deals and have Microsoft reps work with them hand to hand to design install images. OEM whitebox builders are too small and thus they get CDs. This eagle system place looks like counterfeit to me.Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but if they're selling OEM software, they're REQUIRED to sell hardware with it? At the computer store I worked at, we were required to sell at least SOME HARDWARE (could be anything), to the consumer with the copy of Windows. Their site says:THE MANUFACTURER OF THIS PRODUCT WOULD PREFER THAT YOU ALSO BUY SOME HARDWARE TO GO WITH THIS OEM SOFTWARE. WHILE WE DON’T REQUIRE THAT YOU BUY HARDWARE, WE DO SUGGEST MANY ITEMS LISTED IN THE BOX BELOW:Is this correct? Can someone fill me in on this? Also, I noticed that not only do they sell Win98 without the CD, they also do it with XP and 2k.... Just a weird way to sell things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Hardware is required for OEM purchase. CDs are required as well. This look to be fraud/counterfeit copies of Windows. The big boys can sell without CDs but there COA come direct from Microsoft and wouldn't end up in a website on yahoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThunderRiver Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 If the manufacturer doesn't provide any Restore CD at least, it means that it is possible for manufacturer to commit piracy by re-using the exact same CD over and over again with the same exact serial number.My dad's Windows 95 laptop never recieved his CD, and we suspect the vendor did something with it illegally. However, starting with Windows 98, we did receive the CD from Compaq when we bought another system, and now we always receive Windows Restore CD from Compaq whenever we buy any machines with Windows 2000/Xp preinstalled.It is very unreasonable that you have to take it back to the shop. You should ask IBM for what they did with the Restore CD. It is untrue that they hold the license. Technically, if you can't buy a machine without an OS on it, you own the MS Windows license when you purchased your machine. On the other hand, sometimes when I get pissed off, I will just do a clean install and put some other Windows versions on it.. don't ask me where I got the copy from ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 A restore CD is not required mearly a method of restoration. Many HPs ship with NO cds. The restore method is controled by the BIOS. You hit F11 or F12 on bootup and it loads the restore program from disk instead of the main OS. Sorta like COMPAQ's modified BIOS/boot secotors work.Dell, at least most of the time, ships with a full copy of Windows. The setup program is modified to only run on a Dell bios but at least you have the full CD and can do your own install or reinstall as needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 A restore CD is not required mearly a method of restoration. Many HPs ship with NO cds. The restore method is controled by the BIOS. You hit F11 or F12 on bootup and it loads the restore program from disk instead of the main OS. Sorta like COMPAQ's modified BIOS/boot secotors work.Dell, at least most of the time, ships with a full copy of Windows. The setup program is modified to only run on a Dell bios but at least you have the full CD and can do your own install or reinstall as needed.This is why I always BUILD my own machines... No hassle with the recovery system... My parents' pc (a Compaq), came with a 4gig harddrive, but 1gig was compressed recovery info, so really, they only got a 3 gig harddrive that automatically uses 1.5gigs with nothing else installed. I'm building their new system, will save them money AND hassle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsden11 Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 If you have ever purchased MS OEM product, you know it ships with a COA and a disk. Every single copy! They ship in multi packs of 3 or 30. System builders are required to distribute each Desktop Operating System unit with either a fully assembled computer system or non-peripheral computer hardware component only.If it is an OEM Server Software unit then it must come with a fully assembled computer system. Illlegal to sell with just a hard drive or memory!http://oem.microsoft.com/worldwide/514215.asp (For registered OEMs) Public http://www.microsoft.com/oem/sblicenseMS encourages it's OEM system builders to "show your customers that they are recieving genuine software from a reliable source." "Once you have preinstalled genuine MS software on your PCs you build, show your customers they have recieved MS software that is fully supported and legal. A hologram CD-ROM, COA, applicable software components, End User License Agreement (EULA), and purchase reciept."That was taken from the latest MS Product Guide for April-September 2003.The OEM LicenseSection 4.1 – Software Distribution. The term "non-peripheral hardware component" has been further defined as any hardware component "that will be an integral part of the computer system on which the software will be installed". While Microsoft will not be providing a definitive list, this definition includes components essential to running a computer system, such as memory, internal drives, mice, keyboards, power supplies, and internal devices. Examples of components NOT considered essential are scanners, printers, cameras, and external modems/networking devices. Section 6 –Special Requirements for Distribution Other than with a Fully Assembled Computer System. We have inserted the definition of "non-peripheral hardware component" and clarified the process for distributing individual units of desktop operating system software or OEM hardware. Since the person/entity acquiring individual units distributed in accordance with this License must accept the terms of this License.This last part is very important...From the January 2003 License UpdateAnyone acquiring Microsoft OEM software/hardware agrees to act as a system builder. A "system builder" is defined as an original equipment manufacturer (OEM), assembler, re-assembler, or installer of software on computer systems. Whether you acquire Microsoft OEM software and hardware in System Builder Packs (e.g., 3-packs or 30-packs) or as individual units (only desktop operating systems and OEM hardware may be distributed singly in accordance with the License), you agree to abide by the terms of the License.Desktop operating system software and OEM hardware may be distributed with a fully-assembled computer system or a non-peripheral hardware component. Desktop operating system software distributed with a fully-assembled computer system must be preinstalled. Application (Office, etc) and Server software must be distributed ONLY with a fully-assembled computer system, which must consist of at least a central processing unit, motherboard, hard drive, power supply, and a case. A non-peripheral hardware component is any component that is essential to running a computer system, such as memory, internal drives, mouse, power supply. When distributing any OEM software or hardware, the system builder must distribute all of the components included with the individual unit, including, but not limited to, media (hologram CD), manual, Certificates of Authenticity (COA) and End-User License Agreement. The COA label for desktop operating systems must be affixed to the PC case.The End-User License Agreement (EULA) is between the system builder and the end-user. The system builder that installs the software provides the end-user support. I do not know what "deals" the largest OEMs have cut with MS but your local white box builder should be building your computer and supplying you with a COA, Edge to Edge (E2E) Holigraphic CD-ROM, and EULA. If they won't give you that... shop elsewhere! They are probably "hard dive loading!" They have a single copy and are loading it over and over...From the OEM FAQs...Q: May I create and distribute my own recovery disks for the computer systems that I build?A: No. Any unauthorized reproduction or distribution of Microsoft software, even for recovery disks, infringes Microsoft’s copyright and is therefore illegal. However, system builders may offer a hard disk-based recovery solution, per the information provided in a white paper published at http://oem.microsoft.com/worldwide/script/516572.asp. Offering hard disk-based recovery does not remove the obligation for system builders comply with the terms of the Microsoft OEM System Builder License by distributing the Microsoft-branded Windows hologram CD media and manual with the computer system and attaching the Certificate of Authenticity (COA) label to the system chassis.Note: Larger OEMs who have a direct agreement with Microsoft may make recovery media for the purpose of distribution to end users only. They are also required to bear the cost of replication, and are responsible for any piracy that occurs as a result of replication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Thanks for all that info Marsden!! That's some interesting stuff... makes you wonder about all those places that sold recovery disks without giving Windows CD's... Also makes you wonder about this eagle company and whether or not they've been reported to MS about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Ryan, ... makes you wonder about all those places that sold recovery disks without giving Windows CD's...Note the last paragraph of Marsden11's post:Note: Larger OEMs who have a direct agreement with Microsoft may make recovery media for the purpose of distribution to end users only. They are also required to bear the cost of replication, and are responsible for any piracy that occurs as a result of replication.The big boys get better deals then we whiteboxer's do. In exchange for that Microsoft demands/requires/puts foot on neck of the big boys to develop systems to prevent piracy. Either they must modify the setup disk so that it can only work with that brand of computer or they must not provide an install disk but provide a recovery image. The image is presetup for that computer so that makes it much harder to pirate. And the image method gets cheaper rates then the bios limted method. So DELL pays more per copy of Windows then HP does. And we whiteboxers pay WAY more. Dell pays about $30 a copy so I understand for WinXP. I pay about $85-90 a copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfProRM Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Thanks for clearing that up... there was just too much info to absorb all at once... It makes more sense now that you've explained it in plain English... it's really a bummer that whiteboxers don't reap any benefits out of the deal. Maybe someday MS will get things figured out (although probably not). Once people like us really show the benefits of not buying from Dell/HP/Gateway, and even going to Linux, MS will wish they supported the "little guys" better. That day is still quite far off, but hopefully we'll get there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nlinecomputers Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 Microsoft is really trying to crush us whiteboxers. They don't like us. We cost them money. The disks they sell to us can work on ANY box. NO image crap, no bios limted stuff. So if you upgrade you can take your copy with you. Unfortunately with "Trustworthy Computing" *cough* *choke* *gag* I'm afraid that they are going to somehow even lock us into bioses anyway. Also the market is being pushed by Wintel into manufacturing disposable computers. They are so cheap that it is getting easier to toss them in the dumpster and buy a new one then fix it. And with BIOS or imaged locked copies of Windows that means another sale for Billy Borg Gates.Thank god windows isn't a stable OS or I'd be out of a job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rons Posted May 8, 2003 Share Posted May 8, 2003 LOL - just got in a Compaq [my favorite brand ] mdl# 5240. Same setup. Image to secondary partition using what appears to be PQ Drive Image. Not CD's - nada. Just 2 boot disks to recover the image! You gotta love this stuff! Puts food on the table! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsden11 Posted May 9, 2003 Share Posted May 9, 2003 Why all the whining? It’s called competition. No different than little stores trying to compete against the likes of Wal-Mart. I went to a Wal-Mart once and thought their selection of stuff was crap. Never went back. The white-box maker can make a fine living filling in where Dell, HP, Gateway fall short. Don’t forget that Michael Dell started out of his dorm room. Someone else could come along and eat his lunch providing better service.As an OEM you get to “brand†every machine you build with Windows. The OPK makes that very easy. Your name and logo and even shortcuts on the desktop all pointing to you and your company.Sure the big boys do get a deeper discount but have you ever waited on hold with one of them to get a tech who barely spoke English and after a couple of hours you were packing up the crap they sold you and buying local? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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