Real life

[ibe98765]

Visited my sisters on the East Coast last week. Fixed up both of their computers. Whew... What a mess! One didn't have a firewall or AV program. The other didn't have a firewall. Both have kids who download anything and everything. Pop-up's and viruses all over the place! I installed Spybot and Spyware blaster, CA version of the ZA firewall and for the one without AV, the CA AV program (both of which came with that MS security update disk). I tried to explain what I did and what they had to do on a regular basis, but it went right over their heads. Automating the tasks that need to be done isn't easy with different interfaces and different programs and not having enough time.I'm more convinced than ever that computers are just too complicated for the average person and we are a LONG WAY from solving this problem. I don't know what the practical answer is, but it is unreasonable to expect neophytes in computer technology to know about and install a variety of software products to protect themselves from net *******s...

[Ed_P]

You don't expect people to be able to drive a car without training why should a pc be any different? People think (or simply don't think at all) that a computer is the same as a TV. And how many people have you seen with their VCRs blinking 12:00 cause they couldn't figure out how to set it? Well these same people are buying pcs.Well my kids use them in school so it must be simple to use. Course the schools have IT depts to install and maintain them and people with advanced degrees in the classrooms to assist. Not quite the same environment in the home.You're sisters are very lucky you visit them. If they have broadband you might consider installing a VNC server on their systems.

[Guest Paracelsus]

You don't expect people to be able to drive a car without training why should a pc be any different?

I fully agree!!If something like Ham Radio requires certification a/o licensing...Why shouldn't PC's??If one is going to have a system that's contected to Internet, where the PC may be used to effect thousands, if not millions, of people...There should be some basic education and System Configuration requirements before one is permitted to connect.(My POV... And I'm sticking to It) :DPS - Sorry your vacation turned out to be more like a Service Call, IBE98765 I'm sure there other things you would have rather done.

[nlinecomputers]

Add me to the "get a license or get the ---- off the internet crowd." I didn't use to be this way but nowdays I am seeing spyware on PCs almost 100% of the time. Many are almost FUBAR with a wipe and reinstall the only sure method of cleaning them.

[BarryB]

I'm not sure which is worse..the ones that use computers like they are TV's...or the ones that sell them like them are TV's... For every class that teaches "this is an OS..this Is A virus..This is how to stop them from meeting"..there are tons more of "get your music and in a few clicks you'll have your own CD..it's not important what the clicks do..Yada Yada.And I'm not so sure it's a question of be simple to use...millions use them..use them properly is another issue..Maybe testing the buyer to a systems when they buy..Can see it now"I'm sorry Sir..you can't have a computer...but based on your scores here's your 2 cans and a string..and by the way..you should walk home"All, that aside how do we get people educated......I have tried with my "freinds and Neighbors..some have got it others...well they don't care,,so I let them have the "Privilege" of paying for service calls now, from a real Professional that charge real rates....Amazing how some of them are getting it now too!!!!Gotta add..You folks that do this for a living.....How you get through it. I'll never understand...I couldn't do it

[henderrob]

Training of a 40 hour course minimum!!! My sister recently got hooked up onto the internet and has downloaded every spyware scam you could name. She's even given out her credit card number and later wondered what the USD900.00 charge was for. She didn't realize that she had to pay to interact with some psychbabble group.

[ibe98765]

Conceptually, I agree with the concept of licensing. However, realistically, it ain't never going to happen. Doing so would drastically reduce the people who would buy a computer, which would have severe worldwide economic consequences.I know my sisters (and numerous other similar people that I run into in life). They simply do not have the ability, focus, time nor interest to learn all that is required to safely operate a computer in today's world. It is just not realistic to expect people to not only know what is necessary to safely setup a computer, but also how to deal with vastly different interfaces in each program that require regular care and feeding. ****, there isn't even any way to know when a new release of a program comes out for many programs or what to do with a new release (will it be installed in the existing location or will it be installed in a default location - I've seen both happen). Take my system for instance. I have literally hundreds of small freeware and shareware programs installed. Most I use only very infrequently. A relatively few programs have notification systems built-in to the program. Some others have notification available via email (but I don't want to subscribe to each and every program I have). There are some services that aggregate new releases and can tell you about them if you run a scan. But many small programs (particularly freeware are not on these services). A few weeks back, I spent about 8 hours going through many of these programs manually checking for newer releases, downloading them and installing them. But you can't expect the average computer user to do this.There are no easy solution to these problems. Computers are too complicated for the average person. Sure, simplification and standardization would go a long way. However, given the diversity of opinion among most "learned" computer users and program authors, I doubt that agreement on how to simplify or standardize will occur. Yes, Microsoft has created a standard of sorts but there is much flexibility in how authors choose to code their interfaces even in a strict Windows environment. Sometimes too much freedom and too much choice is just that - TOO MUCH!

[Ed_P]

I know my sisters (and numerous other similar people that I run into in life). They simply do not have the ability, focus, time nor interest to learn all that is required to safely operate a computer in today's world. It is just not realistic to expect people to not only know what is necessary to safely setup a computer, but also how to deal with vastly different interfaces in each program that require regular care and feeding.

But the exact same arguments can be made for cars. Very few people change their tires but the majority know that tires are important and go to specialists to have them taken care of. Some states require annual inspections of cars so experts can check the safely aspects. The same concepts could be applied to pcs. They haven't hurt the sale of cars and won't hurt the sale of pcs.

[ibe98765]

I know my sisters (and numerous other similar people that I run into in life). They simply do not have the ability, focus, time nor interest to learn all that is required to safely operate a computer in today's world. It is just not realistic to expect people to not only know what is necessary to safely setup a computer, but also how to deal with vastly different interfaces in each program that require regular care and feeding.

But the exact same arguments can be made for cars. Very few people change their tires but the majority know that tires are important and go to specialists to have them taken care of. Some states require annual inspections of cars so experts can check the safely aspects. The same concepts could be applied to pcs. They haven't hurt the sale of cars and won't hurt the sale of pcs.

C'mon, get real. This is a false analogy. Owning/driving a car cannot be compared in any way, shape or form to owning/operating a computer.

[nlinecomputers]

Oh it can be done. The local college that my wife teaches at now requires that the computers that students bring in dorm rooms to connect to the network be certified by local computer companies. They have a form that the students must have some one like me fill out that shows that the system is up to date on patches, has a firewall, and has updated Anti-Virus. No pass means no access. They have had too much trouble with people with fubar'd computers totally wrecking havoc on the network.I agree that I can't see this being seriously implemented except in that kind of environment. For one thing the amount and kind of damage isn't the same as in cars. You can't kill a person because you drive a faulty computer and computers only cost a few hundred dollars not thousands of dollars.I don't think that computers are to complex for average people to use. It that was truly the case then people would not buy them. People just don't care to learn the boring tasks needed to maintain them. It more a question of desire then anything. I am constantly amused how most people can't find the firewall in XP but manage to drill down the list of menus and setting to find the background and screen saver settings.Computers need as much maintainance, if not more, then cars do. But few are willing to spend the time to do it or pay someone else to do it when you only pay $500 for one. If the investment was $15,000 people would be heading for comp-u-tune-up shops regularly to keep them running.The real solution is to ask, demand, or even threaten ISPs(with lawyers) to fix email and block most ports to end users. Most end users only need the ports for web browsing, email, chat/IM, and maybe a few games. Everything else should be blocked by default unless requested by the end user.

[BarryB]

>>Another waddle up to the Soap box<<Yes the concept would be hard to do...it it very hard to go from less restrictive to more...but there will be something to happen...Bot Trojans are causing Billions in damage..and the damages are not limited to just corporations, What the script writers don't realize is they are begging (no demanding) larger government control of the internet and Gov mandated "Safety Standards" for computers. If you look at history, when people have proven inept at protecting themselves as a group, government is more than willing to create a new revenue stream and control. But have to agree with Nathan on desire (or lack of)(though I think there is a degree of aptitude also)I have often wondered how kids can figure out Music Downloads yet not updates and AV..because maintenance is mundane, and not done. I still believe that people fail to realize that the internet is input and out (though they google..IM and e-mail),,as they do not understand their computers, the internet is even further down the road of understanding(it's just like TV, right?)Education is part of the answer..But,I know very educated people that can barely turn on a computer...attitude may be a bigger issue, and outside of brainwashing it's hard to change..so that opens the door for more controls from your friendly gov agency. And if they start very slowly with incremental changes we won't know we're controlled until after it's done.>>Falls off of soap box...decides maybe eyes are a good idea<<<

[Guest Paracelsus]

I throw my weight of agreement with Nathan & Barry.I don't think computers are too complicated for most people. To me... It's more a matter of what I call 'Willful Ignorance" Or, as already been said, a general lack of interest and concern among general users.Nor do I believe that some regulation or mandatory compliance regarding PC security would drastically hinder sales. People want internet access... And they want it High Speed and Always On. The continuing growth of broadband highlights this.Undoubtedly, this issue is highly complex and there will be no easy answers. But something needs to be done. In hindsight, it is probably regrettable that PC's and Internet became so popular and widely available before some form of certification was (will be?) mandatory.Unlike my analogy to Ham Radio... Where requirements have been in place nearly since the inception of broadcast radio (and I grant, few people were that desirous of establishing their own station)... There has been well over a decade of personal PC ownership and internet connection without a requirement for even the most basic understanding. What seems absurd about this today, is that...While an uncertified/unlicensed Radio Station may cause some interference with legitimate Frequencies or Pirating of a commercial station...As Barry pointed out...An unsecured always on broadband connected PC, in the hands of people who either don't care or are profoundly clueless, can become the conduit of Spam; Trojans; Viruses; which then propagate to cause untold real damage to hundreds and thousands of individuals and businesses.I certainly don't have any answers...But as someone who was once part of the "Unwashed Masses" and has learned everything he knows about PC's the hard way (and by associating with those who knew more ), I can't see things getting any better on their own

[Peachy]

Which is why there's a business opportunity in this for those knowledgable about these things.

[nlinecomputers]

Which is why there's a business opportunity in this for those knowledgable about these things. 

Yes and no. When computers were $1500 it was easier to sell mainance plans. At $500 a pop they just aren't interested in it. Many stroke out at $120 labor costs to virus clean such a unit.

[Guest Paracelsus]

WOW!!, Temmu!!You ruined my whole day. That is a seriously depressing scenario you related

[-ct-]

i've had customers come in with ANCIENT computers - in the 120-200mhz range with UP TO 32mb ram, and they want it to work on broadband and want it all cleaned up, etcthen they get the call telling them it's all set and working as best as it ever will, and i tell them the pricethey end up abandoning the pc! 6 months later i strip it for screws, jumpers and misc. parts and i never see them again usuallydid have one lady who came in 9 months later to pick it up........ she cried that it was gone, but she had been called and snail-mailed a dozen timesmanaged to sell her a new pc though

[Ed_P]

I can't see things getting any better on their own 

I agree.

licensing pc use will never happen.

Not in the near future, but maybe, unless the software/hardware/Internet changes to be more secure.

having taught 'intro to pc's' at a community college for 10 years to successful, inteligent, adult entrepeneurs, doctors, lawyers, & business people, i always have 1 that just doesn't get it; and the rest struggle with keys on the keyboard, mouse usage, where did the file go that i just saved.

These same people don't know how a car's engine works or the transmission or even the wipers yet they drive. A pc license doesn't have to teach a person how a pc works any more than a driver's license requires a driver to know how a car works. A pc license, like a driver's license, would train the user on the "rules of the road", you must run an antivirus program, you must keep it current, you mustn't send spam, etc. And annual inspections of the pc, again similar to cars, has the OS been updated, is the AV current, etc. would make the pc world safer for all.

[Ed_P]

i wish such inspections could be mandated.

Easy to do. Just let the governments realize that it would be a good source of fee income. $4 state, $2 federal, $2 sales tax, etc.

[ibe98765]

... And annual inspections of the pc, again similar to cars, has the OS been updated, is the AV current, etc. would make the pc world safer for all.

oh, i love it! [satire]i'll open the first pc inspection $tation. i can $ee it now, just like $aturday at the ga$ station, car$, er ppl, lined up around the block in front of my hou$e waiting to have me, ah the bli$$ful thought, inspect their pc'$ for compliance![/satire]ah, good friends, i wish such inspections could be mandated. we all know how much less hassel it would be for the rest of us who are connected. not to mention how corporate and government networks would benefit from 99% less infestation!

Great idea! After all, with so many jobs going offshore, the government could create a new industry to employ those out of work by requiring PC inspections yearly! Inspectors would be licensed by the Federal government. Without a validated code/key/something, the PC won't be allowed to connect to the net. ISP's will be responsible for validating the code. Write Lou Dobbs and your congress person...

[ibe98765]

Best Buy sees an opportunity to in the area of servicing computers for consumers. Looks like a good bet to me. And their prices aren't low either. Wonder how good their work is?

Tech support that comes to you Best Buy's Geek Squad muscles into new turf -- computer servicing Carolyn SaidSF ChronicleSunday, June 20, 2004    The black-and-white Volkswagen Beetle pulled up in front of a suburban Antioch home, and a man wearing a white shirt, white socks, black tie and black pants got out and rang the doorbell, holding up an identity badge. "Hi, I'm Double Agent Mark, with the Geek Squad," he said to Louise Agnew, who answered the door. Agnew led him into her office, where her computer sat idle, surrounded by evidence of the many projects she uses it for -- Soroptimist speeches, photos from scuba diving, stamp collecting. "I came back from vacation, and AOL sent a message saying they had detected a virus," she said. "It will not let me open Word. I'm lost without my Word." Double Agent Mark -- Mark Reardon, 43 -- explained how he would tackle her problem. "I'll not only get rid of your virus but make sure that you have the latest (virus-fighting) updates, and clear out your system resources to get your system up and running as fast as it can," he said. The spy stuff sounds a little silly, but the underlying business proposition is serious. Reardon works for a new computer-repair service that makes house calls and is owned by the electronics superstore Best Buy. Geek Squad started 10 years ago as a small tech-support business in Minneapolis. It got so much positive buzz that Best Buy bought it. After two years of testing in selected markets, Best Buy plans to expand Geek Squad nationwide this summer, with agents at all of its 619 stores. Geek Squad also fixes computers that weren't bought at Best Buy.

Geek Squad offers a flat rate for various in-home services: $159 for virus removal, $229 for operating system installation, $169 to network up to three computers, $129 for one-hour training. Kay said the prices initially sounded steep, but upon reflection, seemed reasonable by comparison with what plumbers and electricians charge for house calls. While most services are available for about $100 less for people who want to unplug their CPUs and take them into the stores, the company has found that many people prefer the convenience of at-home visits.

Full article link

[epp_b]

i wish such inspections could be mandated.

Easy to do. Just let the governments realize that it would be a good source of fee income. $4 state, $2 federal, $2 sales tax, etc.

Aaaah! No more taxes Us Canadians already pay HALF of our income for taxes. (at least those over 18 - not quite there yet for me )

[Peachy]

Aaaah!  No more taxes   Us Canadians already pay HALF of our income for taxes. (at least those over 18 - not quite there yet for me )

We do not and you know it! The highest federal income tax bracket is for those making over $104,000 and the rate is only 29%. The lowest bracket, anything under $32,000 is 16%.